Inquiry: Dachiu

[Cat_72]

In the paper the authors stated that they have yet to have any breeder/collector/hobbyist's group of beardies test 100% negative. I would be interested in knowing not so much how many dragons were tested, rather how many owners/breeders submitted them. Does anyone know?

I agree completely, Kelli.

If a large number of dragons have been tested from a small number of colonies..it most definitely skews the percentages.

 

[KelliH]

If a large number of dragons have been tested from a small number of colonies..it most definitely skews the percentages.

Yes, agreed.

 

[Lucille]

I think being 'upfront and honest' includes a review of the damage that this disease has been associated with.

I see information parallels with this disease and the human disease of genital herpes. As a nurse I regularly get requests from people for information about this disease (as well as many others, part of what I do is give people information as well as referrals to free or low cost care so they can get medical follow up).

Many times herpes is not a big deal, in fact many people do not even know they have it because in many people it shows no symptoms.
But for some, their symptoms are painful and outbreaks frequent.
By far the most serious consequence is to neonates. If a mother has an outbreak at the time of childbirth and doctors are aware, there is frequently a Caesarean. If the mother has an outbreak and no one is aware, and the baby contracts the disease, there is a significant risk to the child of death, blindness, or permanent neurological damage.

This being so, those who know they have the disease should inform their prospective partners to the risk of acquiring it. It does not always happen that way, and I think that a refusal to share one's knowledge is extremely unethical.

I think that people have a right to make informed decisions and here, I think that if this disease is possibly widespread, that people who know about the disease should inform their purchasers of the possibilities of damage, pending further research.

It may be that in fact only certain strains of dragons get this or or that is it not as widespread as some people seem to think. But I do not think that waiting for the research results and meanwhile not educating one's customers is fair. It may not be a terrible disease. It may on the other hand be a devastating disease. It may, like herpes, be mild in most but devastating to some. Right now, we just are not certain but there does seem to be evidence linking it with damage.

Because of the potential damage being linked to the disease, I think the ethical path is to let one's customer be informed and let them decide.

 

[shrap]

In the paper the authors stated that they have yet to have any breeder/collector/hobbyist's group of beardies test 100% negative. I would be interested in knowing not so much how many dragons were tested, rather how many owners/breeders submitted them. Does anyone know?

Exactly what I was trying to convey in my last post. I could not agree more!!

 

[shadi11]

What is STILL my problem with the whole "being upfront and honest" about your lack of testing is that the average buyer has never even heard of Adeno....more less the risks that could be associated with it. And with the way many have downplayed it..."oh, pretty much all dragons have it, it's no big deal"...

IMO, this excerpt from Dr. Jocabsen's paper says it all....

Cathy,
I have to agree totally with you here. Everyone pretty well knows mine are positive. But when I got them and searched out the breeders it was to obtain healthy stock. So I could get healthy dragons out there. I think this is the goal of most smaller scale breeders. And being that they are positive I can not make this gaurantee. Therefore as my pets they stay.
Just in my own home I have a fail to thrive.. A possible kidney failure(this is the same dragon) one that had slight metabolic issue for no reason and the rest are fine.. They are all, with the exception of one, over a year old.. and some 2 years old. The youngest is 11 months. I do what I can to keep my dragons healthy. I havent had a case of pinworms or coccidia in 4 of them ever. one dragon when i first got him a year and a half ago and now again recently but thats it. My issue is having one of the positives end up in an inexperienced dragon owners hands. I have seen and helped these people. The traditional treatments usually dont work. And you have this discouraged keeper that dont know what to do. Is this fair?
At least with some testing you can say it may not be 100% but you did what you could to help the world of dragons.

 

[Valley Dragons]

I think being 'upfront and honest' includes a review of the damage that this disease has been associated with.

I see information parallels with this disease and the human disease of genital herpes. As a nurse I regularly get requests from people for information about this disease (as well as many others, part of what I do is give people information as well as referrals to free or low cost care so they can get medical follow up).

Many times herpes is not a big deal, in fact many people do not even know they have it because in many people it shows no symptoms.
But for some, their symptoms are painful and outbreaks frequent.
By far the most serious consequence is to neonates. If a mother has an outbreak at the time of childbirth and doctors are aware, there is frequently a Caesarean. If the mother has an outbreak and no one is aware, and the baby contracts the disease, there is a significant risk to the child of death, blindness, or permanent neurological damage.

This being so, those who know they have the disease should inform their prospective partners to the risk of acquiring it. It does not always happen that way, and I think that a refusal to share one's knowledge is extremely unethical.

I think that people have a right to make informed decisions and here, I think that if this disease is possibly widespread, that people who know about the disease should inform their purchasers of the possibilities of damage, pending further research.

It may be that in fact only certain strains of dragons get this or or that is it not as widespread as some people seem to think. But I do not think that waiting for the research results and meanwhile not educating one's customers is fair. It may not be a terrible disease. It may on the other hand be a devastating disease. It may, like herpes, be mild in most but devastating to some. Right now, we just are not certain but there does seem to be evidence linking it with damage.

Because of the potential damage being linked to the disease, I think the ethical path is to let one's customer be informed and let them decide.

 

[Stardust]

Cathy,
I have to agree totally with you here. Everyone pretty well knows mine are positive. But when I got them and searched out the breeders it was to obtain healthy stock. So I could get healthy dragons out there. I think this is the goal of most smaller scale breeders. And being that they are positive I can not make this gaurantee. Therefore as my pets they stay.
Just in my own home I have a fail to thrive.. A possible kidney failure(this is the same dragon) one that had slight metabolic issue for no reason and the rest are fine.. They are all, with the exception of one, over a year old.. and some 2 years old. The youngest is 11 months. I do what I can to keep my dragons healthy. I havent had a case of pinworms or coccidia in 4 of them ever. one dragon when i first got him a year and a half ago and now again recently but thats it. My issue is having one of the positives end up in an inexperienced dragon owners hands. I have seen and helped these people. The traditional treatments usually dont work. And you have this discouraged keeper that dont know what to do. Is this fair?
At least with some testing you can say it may not be 100% but you did what you could to help the world of dragons.

I very much agree with you post, especially the statement in bold. I would have a very hard time living with myself.

Lucille, your post was also very good

 

[Denisebme]

When the big to-do about sunshine dragons was going on I did test the two that I have, both were negative. The thing with these tests and the point I have been trying to get acrossed it that they are not conclusive, it take several tests and then there is no guarentee, and I honestly don't believe that random testing is going to accomplish much....hence, my decision. Testing is not coclusive even at that, we could still have positive babies...it is a no win situation. I don't think that doing random tests will accomplish anything for the long run other then a research point of view. I am honest and upfront with people that buy my dragons. I am not hiding behind anything. Even the ones that are testing negative in other colonies could and probably will test positive at another point. If denisebme is testing and she continues to test that will enlighten alot of us. (Just using her as an example) I am very curious to see what happens with her dragons in the future, not to mention the offspring. I am watching basically from the sidelines to see what I will do next. I am not saying that I will never test, I just don't have a need to at this point.

I completely understand your position, and I know how prohibitive the testing costs can be.
I still have a couple babies from last years season that I kept. Both of the parents have tested negative but they have not been tested yet. They will be tested in my next round of testing in May, but until then, they have been and will continue to be housed away from all the other dragons. I wish I could afford to test them sooner, but the only way I could test right now is fecal EM, and that just doesn't cut it for me.
I think that just being honest and creating an environment where people can be honest about their testing without being ripped to shreds is vital right now. I've talked to quite a few people in the last week that have told me straight out that they haven't tested at all because they are afraid of the repercussions of positive tests, AND afraid of the repercussions if they come forward with negative results, its a no win situation and we have to change that.

 

[Denisebme]

Cathy,
I have to agree totally with you here. Everyone pretty well knows mine are positive. But when I got them and searched out the breeders it was to obtain healthy stock. So I could get healthy dragons out there. I think this is the goal of most smaller scale breeders. And being that they are positive I can not make this gaurantee. Therefore as my pets they stay.
Just in my own home I have a fail to thrive.. A possible kidney failure(this is the same dragon) one that had slight metabolic issue for no reason and the rest are fine.. They are all, with the exception of one, over a year old.. and some 2 years old. The youngest is 11 months. I do what I can to keep my dragons healthy. I havent had a case of pinworms or coccidia in 4 of them ever. one dragon when i first got him a year and a half ago and now again recently but thats it. My issue is having one of the positives end up in an inexperienced dragon owners hands. I have seen and helped these people. The traditional treatments usually dont work. And you have this discouraged keeper that dont know what to do. Is this fair?
At least with some testing you can say it may not be 100% but you did what you could to help the world of dragons.

Laura,
I've spent the last week getting emails from people that all have AV stories to share, and I have to say that I agree with your post 100%. Not only is honesty and transparency important right now, but we really do need to find a way to build a community to support people that end up with AV positive dragons that are having health issues and learn as much as we can about supportive care.
I can't say enough about the people I've talked to that are 100% committed to caring for their pets, and some of the FTT issues can be pretty serious. We can not get so lost in all this that we forget there are people out here dealing with real AV issues.

 

[shadi11]

Laura,
I've spent the last week getting emails from people that all have AV stories to share, and I have to say that I agree with your post 100%. Not only is honesty and transparency important right now, but we really do need to find a way to build a community to support people that end up with AV positive dragons that are having health issues and learn as much as we can about supportive care.
I can't say enough about the people I've talked to that are 100% committed to caring for their pets, and some of the FTT issues can be pretty serious. We can not get so lost in all this that we forget there are people out here dealing with real AV issues.

Denise, I agree.. Theres a ton of people out there. and they just dont feel safe in the general community mostly. They now get looked down upon or they are just afraid to admit it. Luckily I have found supportive places.
FTT issues are all too common and hard to figure out.. Sadly my record with mine is she is 1 year and 2 months old. and she made it to 324 grams. Shes underdeveloped. and only 15 inches last I checked. She would and has gone long peroids of not eating or hardly eating. Most of my progess has been made in the 8-12 month old age period. It is hard for some to deal with that. I could ask how to get her to eat til I am blue. She never had parasites. She just didnt like feeders. or greens. why? no one could help me. I had a couple friends give me a hand. but i can show many posts on forums where no one could figure out what was wrong. Not even my vet.
I have found many in need of support. And I know theres many more. Theres tons of stories. I have a bunch myself. But if we took the argumentave energy and put it to something useful we might have a better chance. Honesty with breeders is a good start. Testing or not just make them aware. If they find a concern with the fact you dont.. Then its their choice.

 

[puppytoes72]

very true laura.the reason i tested is that there were so many unexplained things even the vet couldnt figure it out.since i tested i have found many other people that i can share symptoms and experiences with and it really helps to have that support group.knowledge is power.i thank pscaulkins(sandy)for convincing me to test.for now jojo is fine and i hope it continues

 

[equibling]

As I bought from Vicki and Rob Dachui I thought it only right that I start this thread. It is me who is paying for the testing to get done. And it will officially be on their own thread if people are to inquire about them as opposed to Denise's thread.
Has anyone else bought Beardies from this company that has tested their animals of adeno or have had animals die or have been lied to?
The disclaimer on their site states clearly that they do not test their breeders or the babies before selling.

I'm new here--but not to beardies.

I bought a pair (1.1) of het. hypos from Vickie back in 2002/2003.

One died within 6 months. He didn't eat well, was listless. I took him to the vet and they just suggested he be treated for parasites. I did the full treatment and he seemed to go downhill from there. He was a small juvie when I bought him & he lived about 6 months, total.

The other one, I still have...but she's never produced eggs (not even infertile ones), she cannot maintain weight, has a poor appetite, never got very large (12") and she's generally sluggish. She's been to FOUR reptile vets in TWO states, had bloodwork done, x-rays, shots, etc and nothing has helped and no real diagnosis was ever reached. I probably have spend over $1500 on this dragon in vet costs!

I first heard of this virus a few months ago and it got me to thinking--is this what's wrong with my girl?

I think I should add that I went from 15 adult breeders to ONE since buying the two from Vickie. All of my others slowly got sick & died and not without me spending thousands in vet bills and having test upon test done.

I'd like to get back into breeding them but not until I learn more about this disease and my vet learns how to test/treat it.

I have thrown away all of my cages (except for the one that she’s in now) and she’s got another appointment in two weeks for a vet in Oregon (I’m 7.5 hours away—so it’s quite the drive, but this vet actually suggested I test for adenovirus). So off we go.

Unfortunately, it’s gotten to the point with her that if a solution is not found soon, I’ll be putting her down because she’s so weak and not eating at all).

 

[varnyard]

I am so sorry to hear this, I doubt that Vickie will do the right thing here. She has your money and that is all that really matters with her.

She has known since 1999 that her dragons had the adenovirus, and bred and sold her animals anyway. IMO, she is probably the largest leading cause of this virus being so wide spread. Too bad that some breeders are all about the money, with no love of the animals or the hobby at all.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

The other one, I still have...but she's never produced eggs (not even infertile ones), she cannot maintain weight, has a poor appetite, never got very large (12") and she's generally sluggish. She's been to FOUR reptile vets in TWO states, had bloodwork done, x-rays, shots, etc and nothing has helped and no real diagnosis was ever reached. I probably have spend over $1500 on this dragon in vet costs!

I first heard of this virus a few months ago and it got me to thinking--is this what's wrong with my girl?

I think I should add that I went from 15 adult breeders to ONE since buying the two from Vickie. All of my others slowly got sick & died and not without me spending thousands in vet bills and having test upon test done.

Can you produce vet reports to back your statements up? I dont disbelieve you on this, but in order for your words to have any real meat behind them, proof of said vet bills and expenses (of labwork,exams,fecals)

Im sorry about your loss with these dragons... what a horrible thing to go through.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

Can you produce vet reports to back your statements up? I dont disbelieve you on this, but in order for your words to have any real meat behind them, proof of said vet bills and expenses (of labwork,exams,fecals)

Im sorry about your loss with these dragons... what a horrible thing to go through.

oops... skipping around!
Proof of said vet bills Would go further with your statement

 

[varnyard]

Dachiu: We are not testing our breeders and/or babies we sell and that is posted on our web site. A can assure you that we are positive Wes. Everyone is looking for answers, but they wont be found in a single test.

Dachiu: Wendy, it says on the web site that the currently available animals are not tested - They are not tested. If someone chooses to purchase an animal that is their choice. If the choose to test that animal - they have 6 weeks!

Dachiu: 30 of 200 (a 15% mortality rate) hatchling dragons perished with clinical signs of weakness and lethargy. 6 with neurological signs were euthanized for necropsy and examination and were determined to have coccidia and viral particles consistent with adenovirus and dependovirus.
None of the apparently healthy dragons were documented as being examined.

Of the remaining 164 dragons that possibly survived - the probability is high that they also may have been infected with these 3 pathogens. We have to ask ourselves how many of these dragons could have survived to a ripe age and lived happy, normal lives with no clinical signs of these infections - as we know now in 2006 that this is likely the case.

Dachiu: If the dragon is apparently healthy but positive test results are returned - We believe it to be the sellers responsibility to disclose this information to the customer. For those who are in the process of testing a large group or still in the process of researching information before testing… We feel that their potential customers should be informed, which we have done on our Currently Available page. For those who do not care to test - Well, that is their right.

Dachiu: It was first presented, years ago, that if an infected hatchling survived they would be sickly, need extra attention, etc… their whole life. If bred, the females fail in health and most of the resulting offspring would expire.

Dachiu: Adenovirus is not a disease - it is a virus that can progress or promote disease if given the opportune circumstances.

Sad, really sad.

 

[Extreme Dragons]

I have spent hours among hours reading this thread and am completely sick of it. I want to be informed about the adeno virus but I cant find any place to learn about it without hearing a bunch of grade school kids calling each other names and pointing their finger. I have bought 7 of my 8 dragons from Dachiu. All of them are doing great. All are over 20" and 450 grams. Maybe they have adeno maybe they dont. I also decided to breed them this year and have had great results. I feel bad for those who have dragons that have not faired as well as mine, but I dont believe that Dachiu can be held responsible. I have met Rob at a show and have spoken to Vicki on the phone all of which was years ago and no they did not send me here. They both seemed like very nice people and very willing to answer any questions that we had. They were much easier to talk to then many other breeders we have met at shows.

My point to this post is that everyone needs to realize that breeding dragons is probably a big part of Dachiu's income. How would you react to something that could financially hurt your livlihood. My family lives off our painting business. I would not shut down because some historians said I possibly, could be, potentially causeing problems in a small percentage of houses that I paint. Especially when there looks to be no way to contain the problem and there isnt much I can do about it. Dachiu does mention the virus on their webpage. They dont throw it in the buyers face and i dont expect them too. I spend endless hours researching everything I buy, wether it was my first dragon or a sandwich maker and I encourage everyone to do the same. Maybe if all these people on here spent this much energy trying to figure out ways to collect funds for more research and better testing then we could get somewhere. But I have a feeling the people on here are more worried about being able to say I told u so when the virus gets worst instead of really doing something about it now.

Vicki if you are reading this I want to say thank you for the beautiful dragons you have sold us in the past and will be calling in the near future for another. Thanks, Charlie

 

[Critterfarm]

This thread is proof that $$ drives all things, including the herp/exotic pet trade.

IBD - can be carried for long periods of time while animal appears outwardly healthy.
Agamid ADV - can be carried for long periods of time while animal appears outwardly healthy.

IBD - has the potential to quickly decimate an entire collection.
Agamid ADV - has the potential to quickly decimate an entire collection.

IBD - is difficult at best to test for with accuracy while the subject is alive.
Agamid ADV - is difficult at best to test for with accuracy while the subject is alive.

On the other hand......
IBD - once it's even suspected to be in your collection, you're expected to break out the needles and start heart sticking your breeders, get on the phone with everyone who ever even inquired about purchasing a snake, burn your enclosures and supplies, etc. etc. If you don't, you're quickly labeled a 'scumbag' on any herp related site with a forum.

Agamid ADV - Even though you've had multiple positive tests on your breeders, keep on selling. Hell, even if you don't tell potential buyers about the tests, it's still OK. Folks will still back you up and say what a great guy/gal you are.

If that high end morph het for Hypo bearded dragon cost 8 or 9k rather than ~$400 you can bet your ass someone would be held accountable for selling it if it was infected.


Sorry for the long post. Sitting here watching my frogs in amplexus and surfing the net, so I had a few minutes to kill.

 

[JimD]

Sad, really sad.

It is, isn't it. So how much research have you done since the big blowup? Have you been following everything that has been presented since?
I hope you have because the rest of us have.

Jim.

 

[Cat_72]

My point to this post is that everyone needs to realize that breeding dragons is probably a big part of Dachiu's income. How would you react to something that could financially hurt your livlihood.

That is an EXCELLENT question.

Now apply that question to someone's else's collection besides Dachiu.

Imagine that someone else's collection was wiped out from buying an AV positive dragon. How do you think THEY should react, when THEIR livelihood is destroyed, leaving them financially ruined?

Hm. Deep thought.