Scott Ashton
Gnitubirtnoc Rebmem
mikey said:
He doesn't see why.
To me that says quite a bit about his integrity - or lack thereof.
Of course doing so would have exposed the collusion between himself and Vickie.
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Inquiry, Denise Latanzi AKA, Denisebme www.Calidragons.com
- Thread starter varnyard
- Start date
He doesn't see why.
To me that says quite a bit about his integrity - or lack thereof.
Of course doing so would have exposed the collusion between himself and Vickie.
Denisebme
Honesty is NOT optional
DaremoAlpha said:
We don't know for sure how many negative animals are in the hands of small breeders, but everything possible needs to be done to protect them, and that means that someone like me, if I continue to get negative test results, simply can not bring any new animals into our colonies until we have some answers.
The issue with "who said what to who" is because there is a much, much bigger issue here. There are people that have vested interest right now in convincing the reptile community that AV is NOT a big deal, that all BD's have it, and that does NOT appear to be the case at all.
I'm all for being productive and proactive, but in order for that to happen, people are going to have to shut up and get out of the way and let the researchers do their work. Do you see that happening when people's livelihoods are based on them being able to convince other people that there is no good reason to test for AV? I don't see it happening.
Its so sad that 7 months into this latest known outbreak, Dr. Jacobson has worked with so FEW tests. Until people get the message that aggressive testing is needed before we'll even get clear answers about this virus, it's going to come down to two factions. People on one side who believe that testing is necessary and that Beardies that test positive should not be bred, and people on the other side that make their living from beardies, and know full well what would happen if people stopped buying from individuals who did NOT test. They have a vested interest in discrediting not only the people who speak out on testing, but if necessary, attacking the test results, the accuracy of testing, and even the researchers. It's already happening.
Tere Salazar
Just Me
01-28-2007, 09:00 AM #63
Dachiu
Endowment Member
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: no where in particular...
Age: 35
Posts: 207
Name : Vickie Dachiu
Trader Rating: (4)
Warning Level: 0 We stated :
Quote:
To the bearded dragon community, we believe this is where we all need to step up to the plate. Those who have had positive results through EM testing - please consider additional PCR testing with Dr. Jacobson - You have the fecal samples that are needed to further any research and possibly identify or discount additional strains of the adenovirus in the North American bearded dragon population. Identification is paramount - it is the first of many steps needed.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/for...ead.php?t=89703
Note to interested parties - Private correspondence was initiated by Cheri in response to our last post.
Our opinion has not changed from the original posts we have made. There are too many unanswered questions, lop-sided facts (that are presented to only support certain points of view) and hearsay to make any informed decisions at all. Oh, and don’t forget the partial mis-quotes and snide comments.
Lets start by addressing Cheri’s latest mis-quote :
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dachiu
I have a problem with people who tend to present only the information that supports their opinions or beliefs. Surely, we can make the time to address this publicly…
Taking any post in context when offering a quote would be an excellent starting point for intelligent public conversation.
Back to your question - Sorry, but we would not post a name publicly any faster than you would offer the names of people with positive confidential test results. Suffice to say, Pete did not only acquire his initial stock from overseas - but also purchased dragons from various sources within the USA.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CheriS
It showed up in the US heavily in bearded dragons that I know of, that were imported from Germany in 1997-2000 to Florida, in the german giants and redflame lines, later the orange glow line and those were all crossed together.
The adenovirus was identified and documented in vitticeps in 1996 by Dr. Jacobson - then found “heavily” in the captive population shortly thereafter? Finding that odd we asked a few pointed questions of the appropriate people and discovered that the trail of information leads back to the early 90’s, if not late 80’s… Before Pete.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CheriS
…in fact the first generations of RedFlames were some of the most heartiest and largest dragons ever produced as are many of the GG lines.
Really? Did you observe this by first-hand experience Cheri? Did you purchase a 1st generation Red Flame from Pete?
We did… several actually, and “in fact” from our experience the above statement could not be further from the truth.
Everything presented publicly so far has been opinions and nothing more. Ok, one opinion was of a valued member of the reptile research community was given - BUT those opinions are being presented to the community by people other than themselves. Cheri, did you edit, delete parts or choose not to mention additional information provided in consecutive correspondences with Dr. Jacobson?
I feel like I’m watching a game of “Pong”. The information just bounces from one side to another. Research has NOT been done on the adenovirus in bearded dragons. The best thing we can do is to test and re-test and try to gather as much information as possible. That is what we have told others to do and that is exactly what we are doing. Do not form an opinion on what others say (including us) but rather do your own research and your own testing.
As for the hush aspect of this whole situation - Cheri, YOU are the one that doesn’t want the broad spectrum of information available. The only facts that are acceptable are the ones that support your point of view - and the minute something goes awry from your path, you want to start pointing a finger. The minute people start asking intelligent questions - up pops a sob story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CheriS
The whole thing is there are some very angry breeders now that people are testing and questioning.... NOW WHY WOULD THEY BE?
Who is angry? Certainly not us. In fact, we are happy that more people are testing their animals. Quite frankly, the more testing that is done… the more things seem to differ from what we have been told is so. The more people who present information, the better.
Shall we begin a list of misinformation that has been presented? Or perhaps a few questions that question/contradict this misinformation? Or maybe it would be better to just move on and address some of the current issues and hypothesis.
Fact - The person who Cheri points her finger at is NOT the person responsible for introducing adenovirus to the USA.
Fact - Adenovirus is NOT the reason said person is no longer actively breeding dragons… just a sad assumption to support a theory.
Fact - Josh worked for SDR and was hands-on with their Trans project. Cheri, you really should “check it further” with a simple phone call to Bob before making unfounded assumptions. (Considering the fact that Paul lived in New Jersey - He must have very long arms.)
Fact - I’m confused. Exactly where in any of Paul’s posted comments on the health of the Translucent dragons was adenovirus mentioned?
Fact - There are many breeders listed on the Bearded Dragon Breeders Network that have recently tested positive for adenovirus. Chances are that their animals were positive previous to testing and yet, oddly enough, are highly recommended for the health of their animals.
Fact - There are several reports of no mortality rates in clutches of adenovirus positive hatchlings. How can this be based on the information provided? What changed?
Fact - The viral outbreaks in animals that died in most cases, had other issues in addition to adenovirus. Shhh… that’s a secret.
Fact - There have been a couple reports of adenovirus positive babies - produced by adults who tested negative.
Wendy stated :
Quote:
I did ask Dr. Wentz regarding the accuracy of the EM test he developed and he said that the carriers tested positive each time and the negatives tested clear.
Fact - We have animals in our possession that previously tested positive for adenovirus - Curious thing is - so did a sibling 2-3 months ago who has since then returned multiple negative results. Once positive, always positive? Obviously not in this case.
Glaring Fact - The one thing with any discernable consistent pattern is the inconsistency of the information provided by certain parties.
__________________
Knowledge is power - but only if applied practically.
www.dachiu.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by Dachiu : 01-29-2007 at 02:48 AM.
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Dachiu
Endowment Member
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: no where in particular...
Age: 35
Posts: 207
Name : Vickie Dachiu
Trader Rating: (4)
Warning Level: 0 We stated :
Quote:
To the bearded dragon community, we believe this is where we all need to step up to the plate. Those who have had positive results through EM testing - please consider additional PCR testing with Dr. Jacobson - You have the fecal samples that are needed to further any research and possibly identify or discount additional strains of the adenovirus in the North American bearded dragon population. Identification is paramount - it is the first of many steps needed.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/for...ead.php?t=89703
Note to interested parties - Private correspondence was initiated by Cheri in response to our last post.
Our opinion has not changed from the original posts we have made. There are too many unanswered questions, lop-sided facts (that are presented to only support certain points of view) and hearsay to make any informed decisions at all. Oh, and don’t forget the partial mis-quotes and snide comments.
Lets start by addressing Cheri’s latest mis-quote :
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dachiu
I have a problem with people who tend to present only the information that supports their opinions or beliefs. Surely, we can make the time to address this publicly…
Taking any post in context when offering a quote would be an excellent starting point for intelligent public conversation.
Back to your question - Sorry, but we would not post a name publicly any faster than you would offer the names of people with positive confidential test results. Suffice to say, Pete did not only acquire his initial stock from overseas - but also purchased dragons from various sources within the USA.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CheriS
It showed up in the US heavily in bearded dragons that I know of, that were imported from Germany in 1997-2000 to Florida, in the german giants and redflame lines, later the orange glow line and those were all crossed together.
The adenovirus was identified and documented in vitticeps in 1996 by Dr. Jacobson - then found “heavily” in the captive population shortly thereafter? Finding that odd we asked a few pointed questions of the appropriate people and discovered that the trail of information leads back to the early 90’s, if not late 80’s… Before Pete.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CheriS
…in fact the first generations of RedFlames were some of the most heartiest and largest dragons ever produced as are many of the GG lines.
Really? Did you observe this by first-hand experience Cheri? Did you purchase a 1st generation Red Flame from Pete?
We did… several actually, and “in fact” from our experience the above statement could not be further from the truth.
Everything presented publicly so far has been opinions and nothing more. Ok, one opinion was of a valued member of the reptile research community was given - BUT those opinions are being presented to the community by people other than themselves. Cheri, did you edit, delete parts or choose not to mention additional information provided in consecutive correspondences with Dr. Jacobson?
I feel like I’m watching a game of “Pong”. The information just bounces from one side to another. Research has NOT been done on the adenovirus in bearded dragons. The best thing we can do is to test and re-test and try to gather as much information as possible. That is what we have told others to do and that is exactly what we are doing. Do not form an opinion on what others say (including us) but rather do your own research and your own testing.
As for the hush aspect of this whole situation - Cheri, YOU are the one that doesn’t want the broad spectrum of information available. The only facts that are acceptable are the ones that support your point of view - and the minute something goes awry from your path, you want to start pointing a finger. The minute people start asking intelligent questions - up pops a sob story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CheriS
The whole thing is there are some very angry breeders now that people are testing and questioning.... NOW WHY WOULD THEY BE?
Who is angry? Certainly not us. In fact, we are happy that more people are testing their animals. Quite frankly, the more testing that is done… the more things seem to differ from what we have been told is so. The more people who present information, the better.
Shall we begin a list of misinformation that has been presented? Or perhaps a few questions that question/contradict this misinformation? Or maybe it would be better to just move on and address some of the current issues and hypothesis.
Fact - The person who Cheri points her finger at is NOT the person responsible for introducing adenovirus to the USA.
Fact - Adenovirus is NOT the reason said person is no longer actively breeding dragons… just a sad assumption to support a theory.
Fact - Josh worked for SDR and was hands-on with their Trans project. Cheri, you really should “check it further” with a simple phone call to Bob before making unfounded assumptions. (Considering the fact that Paul lived in New Jersey - He must have very long arms.)
Fact - I’m confused. Exactly where in any of Paul’s posted comments on the health of the Translucent dragons was adenovirus mentioned?
Fact - There are many breeders listed on the Bearded Dragon Breeders Network that have recently tested positive for adenovirus. Chances are that their animals were positive previous to testing and yet, oddly enough, are highly recommended for the health of their animals.
Fact - There are several reports of no mortality rates in clutches of adenovirus positive hatchlings. How can this be based on the information provided? What changed?
Fact - The viral outbreaks in animals that died in most cases, had other issues in addition to adenovirus. Shhh… that’s a secret.
Fact - There have been a couple reports of adenovirus positive babies - produced by adults who tested negative.
Wendy stated :
Quote:
I did ask Dr. Wentz regarding the accuracy of the EM test he developed and he said that the carriers tested positive each time and the negatives tested clear.
Fact - We have animals in our possession that previously tested positive for adenovirus - Curious thing is - so did a sibling 2-3 months ago who has since then returned multiple negative results. Once positive, always positive? Obviously not in this case.
Glaring Fact - The one thing with any discernable consistent pattern is the inconsistency of the information provided by certain parties.
__________________
Knowledge is power - but only if applied practically.
www.dachiu.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by Dachiu : 01-29-2007 at 02:48 AM.
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Denisebme said:
Dirty politics indeed.
I hope the reptile community can band together and in the the interests of the pet dragon owners as well as the dragons themselves, promote the dissemination of information, both about ongoing research and also where there are labs that will do testing at reasonable cost.
Stardust
human
My bad totally.
Without going into my personal life, I do recall that a couple of years ago this was going on. Same circumstances different people on the chopping block and used. I am trying to get into my older computers for some data that has been saved there.
Cheri and Denise are correct in that, this has been going on for quite awhile.
Without going into my personal life, I do recall that a couple of years ago this was going on. Same circumstances different people on the chopping block and used. I am trying to get into my older computers for some data that has been saved there.
Cheri and Denise are correct in that, this has been going on for quite awhile.
Denisebme
Honesty is NOT optional
Scott Ashton said:
I know that she absolutely knew because I know she has been in contact with Dr. Jacobson regarding the testing he is doing, and I know Dr. Jacobson is quite open about the test his lab specifically uses, which is PCR.
It's also been a source of conversation in the BD forum, where not only has Vickie been an active participant, she is the moderator.
I've been nice about not directly pointing fingers at people, but this time, I'm going to take it ONE step further.
Vickie harped to Bobby that I used a blood test, and in fact, there was a blood draw included in my testing. What she seemed to forget to add was the cloacal swab.
Now, lets just unpack this. Dr. Jacobson's lab uses a feces sample for his test.
A cloacal swab removes what from the vent of a Bearded Dragon? Oh, yeah, Feces and other body fluids.
Then Vickie herself when to the trouble of sending Bobby information that she knew was no longer true in this testing in order to justify calling people, specifically me since my name happens to be the subject of this whole thread, a, and these are her words, "a lying idiot".
Lets just look at another fact quickly. Has she come here and apologized? Nope.
I strongly feel that she should be removed as the moderator of the Bearded Dragon Forum, because this was not handled ethically, and I believe that her presence there keeps people from speaking out.
http://www.thedragonstale.ca/
July 5, 2006
New Pictures
Take a look at the new pictures we posted in our available section.They are the latest shipment of dragons from Dachiu. I will be adding some of our own babies very soon. The breeders and gallery are coming soon as well. Thanks Jim and Jodi
Notice the date?
J&J Reptiles is a business. Jim Dyke is not. If youd like to say that a business sent it ok. If you cant see the difference between the two, ok.
Scott.
Should I list everyone that I know or have met in the States that have posted on this subject? There are quite a few.
Jim.
July 5, 2006
New Pictures
Take a look at the new pictures we posted in our available section.They are the latest shipment of dragons from Dachiu. I will be adding some of our own babies very soon. The breeders and gallery are coming soon as well. Thanks Jim and Jodi
Notice the date?
J&J Reptiles is a business. Jim Dyke is not. If youd like to say that a business sent it ok. If you cant see the difference between the two, ok.
Scott.
Should I list everyone that I know or have met in the States that have posted on this subject? There are quite a few.
Jim.
Scott Ashton
Gnitubirtnoc Rebmem
Denise:
Thanks for posting that.
I wasn't questioning your statement - just looking for the connection.
Its been a long thread and I've been poking in and out to read posts.
As far as Vickie Dachiu is concerned:
This is NOT the behavior of someone who is GOOD for the reptile industry.
It is not the behavior of a "Good Guy".
Make your opinion known by voting:
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64652
Thanks for posting that.
I wasn't questioning your statement - just looking for the connection.
Its been a long thread and I've been poking in and out to read posts.
As far as Vickie Dachiu is concerned:
This is NOT the behavior of someone who is GOOD for the reptile industry.
It is not the behavior of a "Good Guy".
Make your opinion known by voting:
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64652
Stardust
human
Talk about splitting hairs.
Scott Ashton
Gnitubirtnoc Rebmem
JimD said:
Just the ones with a formal business relationship (not customers) with Vickie's business.
I agree with this 100%.
As for my post above I found that after the attack on Denise, Tere and CheriS.
I was used a as scape goat by Vickie and Rob Dachiu, they had no regard for my reputation at all. To be so cold in this is not going to be looked over.
I do not go to the bearded dragon forums as the norm, as you can see by the posts made by me there. They are very few if at all. I did not know the truth uintil Vickie posted the fact that they do PCR testing after the fact that I had put my reputation on the line for them.
Is this what we need in our community/hobby? I say, NO!!!
Stardust
human
varnyard said:
Bobby,
You were targeted because of your lack of knowledge of BD's coupled with your love for reptiles. I feel so bad you were used that way.
I would vote NO as well. I am glad to see that you are on the right track (and probably know more now about BD's then you ever wanted to know, lol) and fighting with the passion and love you have for the reptile industry as a whole.
Well, here's an outsider's current take on the whole situation:
Very little is actually known about AV in bearded dragons. It might be a big problem, it may not.
A lot of people with a vested interest in the situation are using the issue to further their personal agendas (read $), with political type rhetoric, and downright dirty pool.
Let's wait and see what actual science finds.
Like another member said earlier, just reading this thread is starting to make me feel dirty.
Very little is actually known about AV in bearded dragons. It might be a big problem, it may not.
A lot of people with a vested interest in the situation are using the issue to further their personal agendas (read $), with political type rhetoric, and downright dirty pool.
Let's wait and see what actual science finds.
Like another member said earlier, just reading this thread is starting to make me feel dirty.
jsrocket.
Thats a great idea seeing as Dr.Jacobsons letter should be out next week. Then we can all read it. Those of us who may be wrong (myself included) can say our sorries and we can move on.(Hopefully)
Jim
Thats a great idea seeing as Dr.Jacobsons letter should be out next week. Then we can all read it. Those of us who may be wrong (myself included) can say our sorries and we can move on.(Hopefully)
Jim
Scott Ashton
Gnitubirtnoc Rebmem
JimD said:
Its clear that because you have little or no integrity you are incapable of understanding why your relationship with Vickie and her business is germaine to this situation.
I will give you credit in one regard - unlike others you've stayed around to defend your position.
Vickie? Mike? Where did you guys crawl off to?
Jim, to tell you the truth. The first call was made by me I think, I am not sure. There were so many calls back and fourth.
I will say this, the first call had nothing to do with this. It was about Kevin Dunn.
But the truth is I can not remember who called first, I do know it had nothing at all to do with this.
Let me ask you, did Rob laugh the whole time in the background when they called you? It was no movie he was watching, he was reading this.
I will say this, the first call had nothing to do with this. It was about Kevin Dunn.
But the truth is I can not remember who called first, I do know it had nothing at all to do with this.
Let me ask you, did Rob laugh the whole time in the background when they called you? It was no movie he was watching, he was reading this.