Inquiry: MKR: Morph King Reptiles

[shrap]

Sometimes I hate being and objective person.....

I can completely see and understand both sides of the argument here. For one I understand how it hurts what was once a predictable yearly price drop and people invested based on that. When unexpected drops come, or rather forced in this case, it can certainly be unsettling to many who invested in prior years and have taken the 2-3 years needed to raise up their babies. They got left standing there with their dicks in their hands.

On the other hand I have never cared what people sold their animals for. Above market, below market, at market.... whatever. It is their animals and they have the right to sell them for whatever they want.

But if you look at breeding balls as a biz/investment then just like any other biz/investment you have to realize there are no guarantees. You could strike it reach or you could go bankrupt. It is what it is.

I have been keeping Balls since I was 12 years old. My brother went into the military and gave me his, that was my first. I have loved the species ever since. Now me as a hobbyist breeder, I dont care if Ball Morphs are 100's or 1000's of dollars, I love these snakes and will continue to buy, sell, keep and breed every Morph that I personally like until the day I die.

If I can make some decent cash while doing what I love and selling some of my offspring at "market value" then great..... and I dont feel one damn bit guilty about it. If the market value drops a lot and I dont make that much money then that is fine too.... and I wont have one damn complaint about it. Because I aint in this for the money, but I sure as hell aint going to look a gift horse in the mouth while it is still sitting in front of me.

 

[FunkyRes]

Dell computer sells computers to retailers and then undercuts them incredibly?
I did not know that.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I don't see why this arguing continues. No one is going to agree, this is just going round & round in circles and getting nastier by the minute.

Regardless of the massive price drop and all of the bickering about it now, MKR ADMITTED repetitively that their goal is to DESTROY other businesses in both BP & Gecko markets. I see a huge problem with that, all this bickering about how much everything is worth is completely ignoring the ethics of their statements.

 

[David Reid]

Obviously you people do not get it.

I cannot speak for everyone else, but the price drop on the Mojave's while drastic, was not totally unforeseen. The problem I have is that the Mojave "SALE" was supposed to be "for the customer" and it looks to be just a bunch of nonsense between a few breeders, who produce enough animals to affect the price of a certain morph for that year. I do not know all the facts, but I have heard it from enough reputable individuals to believe there is at least some merit in what is floating around as rumor/fact. That is, the sale was to disrupt or hurt one or a few particular breeders. I saw a post by one of the MK guys that said they were going to undersell or hurt or kill the market for geckos. If that post is really by MK, then it gives merit to the other Ball related undersell, or killing of the market on purpose. Bottom line for me, this topic is about someone purposefully harming a market for private reasons. PLEASE stop rehashing the same market/economics garbage, you are not saying anything new, that is all old news. The market settles every year, but this year there seemed to be a deliberate dumping of a certain morph for private revenge.

Not about market flux, but about private vendetas.

 

[evansnakes]

Stephanie, thank you for repeating that since nobody seems to get it.

I did not abuse anything. Some barely literate clown who had no imput in the thread went on my profile and left me a negative with no comment and no explanation. So I went into his profile and read some of the stupid comments he left about others and left him a negative for that. Simple. I will be sure to leave him a negative for this pile of crap as soon as I can!

Hey you fat pussy!
I gave you a bad fucking karma rating because i didn't like your fucking post.
You on the other hand ,pussy,go to another thread were i have posted to get me back.Now who is the coward you yellowed back ,fat pussy.
I haven't posted here in this thread because i could give a flying fuck about ball pythons.Don't know and don't want to know them.
But i do know business,and i do know market fluctuation ,and market sateration.MY markets deal with animals selling for hundreds of thousands of dollars and multimillions.I Have seen markets crash,and people loss their life savings,i have also seen people make millions.
So don't call me a coward you pussy.Your the one going to another thread to hit the karma negatively.
Jack Ass!
__________________
Christopher Frank
SummerWind Serpents-"Excellence Breeds Excellence"
`
Oh, and he deals with animals worth muti millions!!!!

For all that crap he laid in that post, he got 1 warning point for profanity. That is interesting too. Since others got hit with points for each abuse and for off topic posts and insults and on and on, but he gets 1 point. Curious. You want to talk about that? How about some level moderating accross the board instead of this different treatment for different people garbage?

Chris, you are not worth anyones time. Your post was nothing but hollow inflamatory garbage and I would lay money down that you could not ever look me in the eye and talk to me that way. You have nothing to add to this discussion. You took what you thought was a free shot at me but there is no such thing. and when I called you on it publicly you spew garbage. Just sit behind your computer pal. You behave like a coward.

This thread is again about mkr and about ball pythons. The only people defending the behavior of this vendor are people who don't care about the ball market so your opinion is not of much concern to those of us who do. I don't care if the tiny group of people on this thread defending them take anything from this post. I know that my work is done when I get a flood of positive emails and rep points from people who agree with what I have said. I'm done.

 

[Wilomn]

This thread is again about mkr and about ball pythons. The only people defending the behavior of this vendor are people who don't care about the ball market so your opinion is not of much concern to those of us who do. I don't care if the tiny group of people on this thread defending them take anything from this post. I know that my work is done when I get a flood of positive emails and rep points from people who agree with what I have said. I'm done.

Wow Even, that's a pretty telling paragraph above.

Ummmm, is there some rule somewhere that says IF you breed ball pythons you MUST follow these formulai to sell your offspring? I mean other than the booklet the brotherhood sent out.

You see Even, I suspect it is mainly fellow members of the Brotherhood in Good Standing are with you here. I am sure there are others, but really, what is it that YOU think you can dictate how things MUST be done in order to be a well respected breeder?

Dude, do you know the laughter that often accompanies mention of you? I suspect not, but trust me, it is there.

 

[shrap]

Stephanie and David.... I dont think anyone agrees with people using personal vendettas to try and destroy market values or peoples livelihood. There was a lot said by Joe the last few days that did not go over well with many people.

But what is griping about it on a message board really going to accomplish? He obviously dont care what anyone thinks. His words are here for all to see and judge for themselves. The only thing the people that are not happy with what Joe has said and done can do is not do business with him. Nothing that is said here is going to change the way he does things.

 

[Ed Clark]

well I think that this thread is all played out, now its time to vote with your dollars when looking to purchase a ball python.

If you agree with Joe capone and MKR then spend your dollars with MKR and support their future.

If you have problems with the business practices and all the insults and threats that Joe capone came on here and said to everyone. then spend your dollars else where.

 

[Seamus Haley]

In poking those links I posted earlier... I found a quote by Evan that, in retrospect, makes me laugh and laugh and laugh...

If you feel so threatened and "empty" due to this, then do what we have all done and buy the under priced animals from said person and sell them at the price you want, there by eliminating that person as a variable on your market value.

I know for a fact I've left a few quotes here and there that can be thrown back in my teeth on a given subject, but that one by Evan is pretty... Well... funny.

 

[WebSlave]

For all that crap he laid in that post, he got 1 warning point for profanity. That is interesting too. Since others got hit with points for each abuse and for off topic posts and insults and on and on, but he gets 1 point. Curious. You want to talk about that? How about some level moderating accross the board instead of this different treatment for different people garbage?

Maybe apparently you missed this notice dated 06/24/06, Evan -> http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82476

It's posted right at the top of this forum.

Secondly, THIS is the warnings list referenced in the above mentioned thread:

Pretty plain vanilla, now isn't it?

I think the above should adequately explain my position lately. In a nutshell, I may read stuff here and I may not. I may see posts that are worthy of a warning point, and I may not. Just the way it is. The previous structure around here was more work (and thankless to boot) than I cared to continue doing, so I just quit doing it.

I hope that sufficiently explains away your complaint, Evan. If not, take it to another more relevant forum, please. This thread is befuddling enough as it is without more off topic divergence thrown in with wild abandon.

 

[ravensgait]

Ed you said"""BW Smith, you are very much mistaken about your views on the ball python market, it is huge and growing by leaps and bounds. how are you involved? are you a keeper, breeder or a seller of ball pythons. every person that is selling ball pythons is so busy packing and shipping that they cant take time to answer their phones. I think that you are sitting on the sidelines calling plays.""

Um obviously not shipping to much as some of you spend a lot of time here whining .

Even I believe I signed the neg karma I gave you.. You sound just like Joe , you do spell a little better though and please stop speaking for the rest of us I for one don't agree with your BS.

Folks there is one thing that is plain to myself and I would imagine many others here, that being that your in it for the money(sure seem to knock someone else here for doing that). Gee I'm sure I've bought animals with the hope of making something off of them or their offspring many in this hobby have. You don't like Joe! well fine and dandy knock yourselves out but try to use a little truth and a small amount of proof in your arguments. Randy

 

[varnyard]

I will add to this, even though I have no dog in this fight. B.W. Smith is well known, he has also done some really great work for our hobby. A simple brouser search will give you a good idea. He is well respected by me.

That said, I have been telling people that this market was going to drop for a real long time. It is called supply and demand. The market is only as strong as the demand. If there are more animals then there are buyers, then the price is going to fall. You can blame it on whoever you like, but the facts are right here before our eyes. There are heaps of ball python breeders and the numbers are growing. These breeders are producing more ball pythons then there are buyers. These are the facts, regardless of what you might think or wish. If you do not think this is true, go to a expo or any of the classifieds. There are more ball pythons for sale as well as being bred then any other reptile. Then ask yourself why the market is dropping. First the normals, then the Pastels and then Mojave, Spiders, and etc, the list goes on and on. Can we really blame one or two breeders, or was it fate? You be the judge. JMHO

 

[evansnakes]

Wis, you are such a petty jackass that you purposely always post my name as even instead of Evan because you think it is funny. You are a tool Plain and simple. You did the same Randi, although I am not sure if yours was intentional or not.

And Seamus, you are right, you have said a million stupid things that can be taken out of context and you are such a busy guy that you just spent half your night digging for a quote of mine to take out of context and use to what end? There is no point to it. I was talking about under priced animals at shows. And if you had bothered to read anything that I posted here instead of just being in a hurry to attack me, you would have seen that on at least 3 occasions in this very thread I posted some form of the phrase "sell what you want for whatever you want". And I stand by my quote you took out of context. Somebody who was concerned about the market should have just bought those guys out on those under priced animals and resold them. BUT, 1 problem with that. No matter how good the price, many of us would not give 1 dime to a total flaming a-hole who's only desire is to destroy a business he has no respect for and no history in.

You guys jump into a conversation on a topic very improtant to many many people, state openly you could care a less about it, and attack people and move it off topic. I have said it a million times and hear it all the time and it is the reason this site is being held back from the popularity enjoyed by other sites, this little click of people who have to post on every thread. who do nothing but insult and attack people for no reason other than sit at their computer and laugh at their own comments on the screen. You are just sad.

Frankly Wis, I don't care what you think of me as you have no interest in what I do, spend no money on the animals I have to offer and have no respect for anyone but yourself. You are fubar pal. Just an absolute waste.

In the immortal words on an eight year old who is smarter than both of you put together "screw you guys, I'm going home."

 

[evansnakes]

I forgot, so let me be clear, I will not be back to this thread. So when you guys take shots at me and insult me because you have no real contribution to make to the real issue here, know that you are just talking behind my back because again, there is not a pair of balls between you to address me in any other manner.

I post on this tired old board to help people who don't know any better or are new to this gig to try to steer them in the right direction if I can help to prevent them from being ripped off or taken advantage of by the losers of the business. But as has been the case with my involvement in this site for probably about 2 years now, I am growing more and more tired of the same people always starting the same sh*t every single time on every single thread. I am tired of fighting with people who have nothing else in their lives but fighting on this website. So I will probably just go back to posting the occasional classified ad and contribute less of my time as it is just not worth the anguish any longer. And it is a shame because I know so many great people that will not ever touch this site for any reason because of it. It is a shame that you are now relaxing your guidelines and deciding you don't care any longer Rich. If you don't why should anyone else?

 

[Jim O]

This thread is again about mkr and about ball pythons. The only people defending the behavior of this vendor are people who don't care about the ball market so your opinion is not of much concern to those of us who do. I don't care if the tiny group of people on this thread defending them take anything from this post. I know that my work is done when I get a flood of positive emails and rep points from people who agree with what I have said. I'm done.

Gee Evan, you mean people who might be objective?

You won't buy all of MKR's "underpriced" morphs for resale at profit not only because you won't give them any money. It's because it would be an incredibly dumbass financial move. It's also because you can't afford to do so. We already know that you have had to write post-dated checks for big purchases (I suspect that the Ball Python market is not as strong as you'd like it to be based on that, but that's just an inference). That's also here for everyone to see forever. And that's OK.

Just admit what this is really about. He bought into a market that you and others have worked hard at over the years. By using a cash intensive business model he has, in a short space of time, vaulted past you and other small time guys who don't have that kind of cash laying around. Good or bad? Irrelevant. Fact? Yes.

 

[christopher66]

`
Oh, and he deals with animals worth muti millions!!!!

Yes i do .
Highest price this year was 17million. On a animal that is only 1year old.There were 12 that went for over a million.

Here are the totals for the first action of the year.
Day1
Year #sold gross average median
2005 188 88,712,000. 471,872. 300,000.00
2006 163 87,900,000. 539,264. 310,000.00

Day 14
Year #sold gross average median
2005 154 1,325,300. 8,606. 5,800.
2006 180 1,466,300. 8,146. 4,600.

Cumulative Totals 14 sessions
Year #sold gross average median
2005 3,545 384,349,900. 108,420. 40,000.
2006 3,556 399,791,800. 112,427. 45,000.

this does not include # offered and not sold.But that does show in the cumulative #'s
Some people hit a homerun on resale.Some people ate'em.

Now evin ,would you like to talk markets,and how they work.
Because it doesn't matter what species your dealing with it all comes down to supply and demand,and were the decimals are and aren't.

And i know how to read the writing on the wall and what it implies.

And YOU sir are a waste of my time.

 

[greg4000]

just a thought

i believe the very first post was in regard to whether or not people had info on how deals went with mkr good or bad. has that even been addressed yet? i think no matter who it is, there is always going to be someone in this industry, or any industry, that people do not like. so here is my final take on mkr. they may not be good for investors, but what about the regular people out there who just want the one or two designer morphs because they love them, and have no intention of breeding them. does mkr sell high quality ball pythons, i have not heard any testimony to prove otherwise.
does anyone have rock solid proof that mkr sells bad, sick, genetically inferior animals, and that they have poor customer service? they may be in it just for the money, and they may be going about the competition the wrong way, but they seem like they are good at breeding healthy ball pythons. i have made investments, quite a few and would like to make some money at this game. but in my opinion, as far as the money goes, i have to have it, so i might as well make it doing something that i love. when i watched the mkr tv show, i cant say that i was really happy about what and how many they plan on producing. i also have to admit i got tired of hearing how good he is. fact of the matter is between joe and wes, they obviously have a good team. another point was made in regards to people arent going to let them in on new projects, they will eventually burn out. its just a waiting game and their time will come. i love my collection of snakes, and even though i wont be able to sell a pied for 5000.00, i will still love producing them. in the end isnt that what really matters.

 

[Ed Clark]

Randy, not fair for you to say that im speaking for everyone else. when I post its my opinions only, I speak for no one else.

I dont buy into this market crash that you and a few others are talking about.

If you do not agree with me, thats ok. I still respect your point of view.

 

[christopher66]

, i will still love producing them. in the end isnt that what really matters.

This is the truest of statements.
Unfortunately it is my presumption after reading a lot of this posts and others on BP's that a lot of the people in the BP market have forgotten what it is all about.
The art of and joy of caring for a snake ,and taking it from neonate to adult and trying to successfully breed it.Then go through the anxiety phase of incubating the clutch,with the final satisfaction and exuberism of watching the first baby pip through its egg.

But on the other foot,

I hope everyone will make their money back in the BP market .But not everyone will.And that is a fact.And a fact a lot of people didn't want to realize when they spent large amounts of money.

What really bothers me are the people that persuade new people to buy into the market ,they sell them high dollar snakes while telling them grandiose ideas of how they will make money.THAT is unethical.And border line illeagle.
Show me numbers on how many of you have made your investment back.
Can you ,will you?
Can the "brotherhood" show us their numbers?
Can any one show numbers of how the market is?
Has anyone even bothered to try to calculate it?

 

[christopher66]

This is the truest of statements.
Unfortunately it is my presumption after reading a lot of this posts and others on BP's that a lot of the people in the BP market have forgotten what it is all about.
The art of and joy of caring for a snake ,and taking it from neonate to adult and trying to successfully breed it.Then go through the anxiety phase of incubating the clutch,with the final satisfaction and exuberism of watching the first baby pip through its egg.

But on the other foot,

I hope everyone will make their money back in the BP market .But not everyone will.And that is a fact.And a fact a lot of people didn't want to realize when they spent large amounts of money.

What really bothers me are the people that persuade new people to buy into the market ,they sell them high dollar snakes while telling them grandiose ideas of how they will make money.THAT is unethical.And border line illeagle.
Show me numbers on how many of you have made your investment back.
Can you ,will you?
Can the "brotherhood" show us their numbers?
Can any one show numbers of how the market is?
Has anyone even bothered to try to calculate it?

..a lot of this posts = ..a lot of these posts..