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Inquiry: MKR: Morph King Reptiles

Chameleon Company said:
So now we are chastising David for using this adage ?
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No, but for once again crapping on the Ball-People, as he put it. You know as well as I do that he was doing nothing more than taking a shot at us.

Chameleon Company said:
I would suggest that many paid inflated prices for their breeders in the mistaken belief that it was a good investment.
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And what proof do you have that is was a bad investment? There are countless people out there that have had great success investing in Balls. And many that have failed. I imagine the numbers for the amount of failed Ball investments are right in line with any other failed small business.

Any investment comes with a risk. I dont see the Ball market, or reptile market in general, being any more of a risk than any other small business.

Now the people who jumped in thinking it was a get rich quick opportunity were fooling themselves. As with any small business it takes years of hard work and commitment to be successful. If you were not willing to put in the time, the sweat and the tears then it didnt matter what small business you invested your money in, it was going to fail.

Are the prices coming down? Sure are. Have they came down every year? Yep, sure have. Is that opening up the market to countless more people? Yep, sure is. Is that good for business in the long run? Yep, sure is. Is the market flooded with competition? Yep, sure is. Does that mean that you have to work that much harder, produce better animals, and offer better customer service than the next guy to stay alive? Yep, sure does. Is it different in any other business? I dont think so.

I hate even talking or thinking about reptiles as a business like this. It takes away the enjoyment I get out of just working with my critters. It is and always will be a hobby to me, a passion to me, first and foremost.

But I will be damned if I am going to sit back and watch some people try and pass off their bias and jaded opinions as some kind of fact without saying something about it.
 
Sammy,

You ask:
And what proof do you have that is was a bad investment? There are countless people out there that have had great success investing in Balls.
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Well, there's a few here in the BOI of late that aren't as optimistic about their investments, or is this thread all in my imagination?

No one chastised all ball owners, or all morph breeders. I believe you stated the following as an opinion, just like the rest of us have stated opinions, and maybe you can lighten up on the "proof" thing?

QUOTE]Now the people who jumped in thinking it was a get rich quick opportunity were fooling themselves.[/QUOTE]

Yup ! :thumbsup:
 
Jim,

You aint even in this for the discussion aspect, you are just in it for the sake of argument. You seem to live for arguing for no other reason than just to have something to argue about.

Go get married man, the making up process makes the arguing so much more worthwhile. :)
 
I am curious, after having some very large shows these last couple of months and prices are always dropped at shows, if MKR did not drop the price of Mojave's, what would the current price be?
 
Hey there Mr. Shelton.....

Junkyard said:
I am curious, after having some very large shows these last couple of months and prices are always dropped at shows, if MKR did not drop the price of Mojave's, what would the current price be?
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There is no way to put an exact dollar figure on them.... but considering they were going for 10k still in late 04 and early 05..... between $2500 and $3000 would be my guess.
 
And what proof do you have that is was a bad investment? There are countless people out there that have had great success investing in Balls. And many that have failed. I imagine the numbers for the amount of failed Ball investments are right in line with any other failed small business.
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Sammy,

With the exception of some unforeseeable turn of events (such as the “discovery” of the leucistic genetics and its negative impact on the snow-albino-axanthic morphs), other logical price-drops could be predicted with a certain degree of accuracy.

In 2003 pieds were selling for $15,000 and more. After a very interesting discussion (thread in the GBD “What happened with the pied market”), great input by Seamus, and an assessment the historic trends for some morphs, we came to the conclusion that pieds would sell for $3,000 in 2006. Looking at your most recent ad it seems we were not that far off ;)

Having said this a little over a year ago I paid $1,250 for a 400 g hetero for pied. I was asured by more than one of the big breeders that prices will remain stable. Today you can get a male pied for $150 or "free" with the purchase of a female. Do I feel that I was deceived? Not a bit, I'm enjoying that snake as any other in my collection. But in that instance I failed to "read" the signals, my fault.

Regards.
 
The BoidSmith said:
Having said this a little over a year ago I paid $1,250 for a 400 g hetero for pied. I was asured by more than one of the big breeders that prices will remain stable. Today you can get a male pied for $150 or "free" with the purchase of a female. Do I feel that I was deceived? Not a bit, I'm enjoying that snake as any other in my collection. But in that instance I failed to "read" the signals, my fault.

Regards.
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And female het pieds are still going for around $1000. Small drop, but expected.

Male het pieds last year were going for $250... so $150 this year is not a huge surprise either. I am assuming you meant male het pied (and not male pied) when you said "$150 or free".

But I dont see where you read the market wrong, because it is not a fair representation to compare the price of het females one year to the price of het males the following year. Like I said, the drop from $1250 last year to $1000 this year for a female het pied should not have been unexpected.
 
Sammy,

Seems when we can no longer debate, we turn to the personal attack:
You aint even in this for the discussion aspect, you are just in it for the sake of argument. You seem to live for arguing for no other reason than just to have something to argue about.

Go get married man, the making up process makes the arguing so much more worthwhile.
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On the first point, you have today launched into long diatribes about small-business work ethics and rock climbing :rofl: Yeah, OK.

On the second point ... Sammy you pusilanimous pipsqueak ! I currently have one wife, four children, one daughter-in-law, and as of 10 days ago I added a son-in-law, with two tours of Iraq under his belt. In three weeks I am expecting the birth of my third Grandson ... no Grandaughters yet ! One son and his wife are missionaries. One daughter in law school. One in the work force. Youngest son in college. Now, maybe you can get your head out of your ass ?
 
Jim,

You aint even in this for the discussion aspect, you are just in it for the sake of argument. You seem to live for arguing for no other reason than just to have something to argue about.
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You know Sammy, I think you may have something there. :iagree:
 
Chameleon Company said:
I currently have one wife, four children....
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See, I knew you liked to argue. :)

And Jim, just like the sentence right above this one, I was not attacking you. I was just giving you a little honest ribbing. Sorry if i hit a sore spot.
 
Chameleon Company said:
Seems when we can no longer debate, we turn to the personal attack:


On the first point, you have today launched into long diatribes about small-business work ethics and rock climbing :rofl: Yeah, OK.

On the second point ... Sammy you pusilanimous pipsqueak ! I currently have one wife, four children, one daughter-in-law, and as of 10 days ago I added a son-in-law, with two tours of Iraq under his belt. In three weeks I am expecting the birth of my third Grandson ... no Grandaughters yet ! One son and his wife are missionaries. One daughter in law school. One in the work force. Youngest son in college. Now, maybe you can get your head out of your ass ?
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Other than Sammy finding your button and jumping on it, isn't it these type of statements that you claim bring this forum down. Isn't this the trash talk you criticize? Seems hypocritical to me.
 
Casey,
In the original Morph King Mojave thread, back in late August, seems I recall many who disagreed with you, and your response was running around zapping everybody with negative Karma in your tantrum. While many of the posts here have been informative, and the disagreement professional, seems a few still find the mud appealing. Unfortunately, I feel myself being drawn into the "two idiots arguing" scenario .......
 
Sammy,
Perhaps it is wise to not mention the family of another in any connotation here. However, it did give me the opportunity to brag. Mark, thanks for the bold type ....... in the words of Charley Brown ....... AAAAARGH ! Beginning with your post Sammy, does anyone care to post on topic here, or shall this remain stupidity on parade ?
 
Sorry Jim.....

Chameleon Company said:
Sammy,
Perhaps it is wise to not mention the family of another in any connotation here. However, it did give me the opportunity to brag. Mark, thanks for the bold type ....... in the words of Charley Brown ....... AAAAARGH ! Beginning with your post Sammy, does anyone care to post on topic here, or shall this remain stupidity on parade ?
Click to expand...

No bait for me today, thanks anyway.
 
Let's stay focused on MKR and economics

Sammy said:

"There is no way to put an exact dollar figure on them.... but considering they were going for 10k still in late 04 and early 05..... between $2500 and $3000 would be my guess."

But I and several others on this thread, and on the other MKR thread, have suggested that Mojaves wouldn't sell for $2,500 for the entire season considering the number of them produced this year.

Since the Mojave morph is co-dominant, and since the formula for producing co-doms in great numbers had been figured out before the first Mojave hit the market, it was predictable that this mass production would take place. I propose that the same number of Mojaves would have been produced (by various breeders) even if MKR were non-existant. I also propose that even if they (Mojaves) were purchased at $2.500 at the beginning of the season, their price at this stage would be around $800. So it could be argued that MKR was just selling the Mojaves at the price they would become in that year, instead of starting high and watching the price fall.

Ultimately, we will never be able to prove what Mojaves (produced in equal number, but with MKR out of the picture) would be selling for RIGHT NOW.

Thank you,

Doug
 
Male het pieds last year were going for $250... so $150 this year is not a huge surprise either. I am assuming you meant male het pied (and not male pied) when you said "$150 or free".

But I dont see where you read the market wrong, because it is not a fair representation to compare the price of het females one year to the price of het males the following year. Like I said, the drop from $1250 last year to $1000 this year for a female het pied should not have been unexpected.{/QUOTE]

Yes, I was obviously referring to het pied. But my bad it was not a little over a year ago, time flies. I check my records and it was purchased in late 03'. It was an het pied and I paid $1,250 for him. If my math is right a 300% depreciation in a little less than 3 years. It seems that heteros have depreciated faster than the visuals though. Going back to MKR and the Mojaves it seems several things happened that cloud a simple "prediction". But anyone that has 50 pythons of one single morph is way overstocked and he'd better move them ASAP. That's exactly what they did, granted at less than their ongoing price at the moment. Again, I think they missed the boat on how many females to breed to their Mojave males. But if it was cash flow they were after (plus freeing 50 tubs and time) by selling 50 @ $800 a piece they had all of a sudden $40,000 in their hands. Strictly business...

Regards
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No arguments here Doug, as I said, it was purely a guess based on the prices in previous years. I am the last person who will claim my crystal ball works any better than anyone else's.
 
Dan,

My apologies sir. I misread your post about it being a male and not a female. I paid $400 in November of 2004 for my 300 gram het pied male. So that is indeed a huge drop in one year.

I dont know what went on with MKR and the mojaves.... as far as their motives. I was not there and am not privy to any inside info. If their motives are more along the lines as you suggest, then more power to them. If they did it for more malicious reasons then I cant say I agree with it in any way.

All I can say is that I can understand both sides of the argument, first about trying to maintain predictable yearly drops in prices, and also about a persons right to sell their animals at whatever price they see fit.
 
Good posts Doug, Dan, and Sammy .... sanity returns. Back to your earlier point Sammy about the "small business model". While I would agree with all that you say about small business, to include the failure expectations, I do not think it applies to most of the hobbyists here who, in my view, got in later on the market for a few morphs than they thought. I am not sure if there is a specific economic niche that describes it, but I have always likened it to being a "reproducing collectable", which has its inevitable price-descent guaranteed. I believe that one of the cardinal rules of investment is to "get out on the way up" so as to profit off those who ride it on its way down.
 
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