is this a desparate business in need of funds?

[Ed Clark]

bob,i never asked you to sell your boas to accomadate my bottom line. i did say that it was your business decision on what you sell your boas for.and it was your business decision on how many thousands you wanted to lose on each boa.best of luck to you in your future breedings

 

[Griz]

bob,you come on here under the false premise that the money was for your childs college education,then you talk about the 40,000.00 truck that you just bought.you also were running ads looking to get a very expensive tight turn lawn mower.which is it.it can't be them all.

once again, at the time of my email to you i was selling sunglows for $4500.00 and no matter what you say thats the facts.

bob,best of luck with your future breedings. ED CLARK

Again Ed, you are failing to show rational thought. My lifestyle, whether it be my vehicles, my home, my snake collection or my child's college fund is irrelevant to my pricing mechanisms. But, just for snickers sakes, do the math:

1) One litter alone produced $30,000. Obviously more than enough to help fund an IBS fund up to my maximum write off allowance. Obviously more than enough to buy a zero turn mower. And, even after all of that, there is still enough money to go into a savings account. After all, with 0% financing, why would I use any of my own money towards my truck?

Ed, try to stick to the issues at hand. As a reminder, it would be:

1) Your inability to mind your own business
2) Your insane desire to meddle in mine and numerous others pricing
3) Your lack of coherency of 1 & 2

Ed, what I would like to know is how in the world you think you can justify sending me that email? Or, starting this post? If your collection is so dependent upon my prices, then I would highly encourage you to find other employment and do this as a side hobby. It would be much more rewarding for you knowing that you don't have to sell animals in order to pay your bills.

Griz

 

[Griz]

bob,i never asked you to sell your boas to accomadate my bottom line. i did say that it was your business decision on what you sell your boas for.and it was your business decision on how many thousands you wanted to lose on each boa.best of luck to you in your future breedings

And I do believe Ed I then sent you an email outlining what compound interest does vs me sitting on 06 babies for an additional 12-18 months.

You're right, you did not ask me to sell my boa's. However, you did feel the desire to verbally insult me, to imply that I was a whore, to try and demean an individual who is simply trying to provide MY family with a better life. I reckon that makes you feel like a real man, doesn't it Ed?

Griz

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

This has been a fairly interesting read. I enjoy reading everyones opinions on this subject that I too find frustrating. Here's a comment I made on another forum regarding a similiar situation...

Someone made mention of Codom BPs being so cool & easy to reproduce...

The problem with Codoms is that it's so easy to reproduce in a short amount of time. Which means their are more chances for individuals who don't care about the market to ruin it. If you look at the prices of Spiders & Pastels compared to just 2-3 years ago, they've dropped tremendously.

A good example with Leopard Geckos is the Mack Snow. Just last year, what were they selling for? $750-1000? Within a year, you can now get them for $75-100! That is insane. I am very glad I didn't jump into Macks last year, I would have been ticked spending that much money on an animal to not even be able to recoop my purchase price.

Someone brought up MKR & their $800 mojaves...

MKR isn't looked on to kindly by the BP community due to what they do to the market, so I wouldn't bring their name up as a positive comparison.

Yes, they are very, very beautiful animals...But the average person doesn't spend $10,000 on a single animal just because it looks pretty. It's an investment.

How would you feel if you just dropped a couple grand on an animal with the intention to recoop the purchase the following year & a non-name came up the following season and sold them for a small precentage of what they sold for the previous year?

Sadly, not many people think of the consequences surrounding their actions, THOSE are the people who are in it just for the buck.

I think that pretty much sums up my opinion.

 

[Bill & Amy]

Amy, I understand what you are saying. But, here is my gripe. These are his animals. MKR is accountable to him and only him. If he wants to sell his animals for pennies on the dollar then who are we to say otherwise? If he is able to produce these animals at a lower overhead then the competition then it will reflect so in his prices.

Well I think you know my name is Bill from past thread participation.

I have already reaped a huge profit off of the parents of my sunglow litter. When they produce again this next year I will be selling my babies for even less. Why? Because I can. Because I have already seen a huge return on my investment. Because I truly enjoy making this hobby enjoyable (read affordable) for others. Because I like the idea that the money I am receiving is ensuring the future success of my children since their college will be paid for. Because I enjoy some of the finer things in life that this hobby affords me. It is NOT about maximizing my returns on every single animal. It is about knowing what the market will allow, what my finances will allow, and most important, what my family needs in order to continue our standard of living. It will never be about making sure my animals does not affect the bottom line of Ed Clark or any breeder for that matter.

I could care less how much you money you made. This thread wasn't about you.

I probably would not have jumped in on this conversation had it not been Ed Clark that started it. He's proven himself to be incapable of rational thought when it comes to others pricing. He has also proven himself incapable of controlling his thoughts and emails. How would you like to be enjoying your day only to have someone who you had never heard of call you a whore? And for what? For selling your animals based upon market allowances?

Griz

This very topic about MKR is on every forum I participate on and alot I don't. This is far beyond what Ed thinks. I don't agree with the email he sent you, but I also don't agree with the "Wal-mart" mentality to our hobbies. What MKR did was a very calculated action against other breeders and there is alot more going on than just selling cheap. I just wish people would quit using these animals with a bottom dollar motivation. Like I said, I don't know the situation of the Sunglow market.

MKR says he is doing this for his customers, do you really think he cares? How about the ones that bought mojaves from him last year for full price? I could care less about how much he makes off selling snakes a year, but he sure likes to brag about it.

Mojaves are going to be a hard sell now, everyone is afraid of what he will sell them for next year. So did he help the market? Did he really help our hobby? Or did he help his pocket book? They are all connected in the long run and we need to stop and realize that.

I don't have a problem with you Bob or your opinion. We just need to make sure we do the things we do for the right reasons.

 

[SPJ]

Bob,

Look at it this way. Say you just bought your pair of sunglows last year and paid $6K for them. This year out of the blue, another breeder comes in with dozens of pairs for sale at $1K per pair (and a week before one of the largest shows in the country is to take place no less). This causes a huge disruption in the market and in turn it causes others to have to adjust down just to try and recoup a portion of what they have invested in their breeding stock. You would not be upset? That's just a market correction? It's OK for someone to drop the market out from under you?

 

[Ed Clark]

bob,i really dont know what it is your mad at.
is it the rude email i sent you months ago.
is it this thread that i started here.
is it the coral sunglow boa that you tried to beat me down on in price.

if you have something you want to talk about,call me or email me.it dont belong on this thread.

 

[Griz]

Well I think you know my name is Bill from past thread participation.



I could care less how much you money you made. This thread wasn't about you.




This very topic about MKR is on every forum I participate on and alot I don't. This is far beyond what Ed thinks. I don't agree with the email he sent you, but I also don't agree with the "Wal-mart" mentality to our hobbies. What MKR did was a very calculated action against other breeders and there is alot more going on than just selling cheap. I just wish people would quit using these animals with a bottom dollar motivation. Like I said, I don't know the situation of the Sunglow market.

MKR says he is doing this for his customers, do you really think he cares? How about the ones that bought mojaves from him last year for full price? I could care less about how much he makes off selling snakes a year, but he sure likes to brag about it.

Mojaves are going to be a hard sell now, everyone is afraid of what he will sell them for next year. So did he help the market? Did he really help our hobby? Or did he help his pocket book? They are all connected in the long run and we need to stop and realize that.

I don't have a problem with you Bob or your opinion. We just need to make sure we do the things we do for the right reasons.

I will address each post separately.

Bill, when I typed the reply to you I was on my cell phone. Putting Amy's name in place of yours was an oversight not a slight. Don't read more into that then what there is.

As for how much money I made, you COMPLETELY missed the point. The point was not "oh, look at what Bob makes." The point was, even selling at rock bottom prices (MY PRICES) I was able to make over a 500% profit on my investment! That is the point I was making. How much of a profit is too much?

Also, my "mentality" is nowwhere near that of Walmart. However, some individuals opinions on here are very close to that of Enron. Get as much as you can while you can and screw the little guy. Who are you (used in a general term) to tell me how to set my prices? Who are you dictate what is fair and what is not? Keep in mind, these are MY animals. Not yours and therefore it takes a lot of audacity for an individual to send me UNSOLICITED emails chastising me for my prices.

Lastly, a lot of you keep throwing out the tag line about all they care about is the money. Of course that is what you call the BOTTOM LINE! For the love of God man, this is ALL ABOUT THE MONEY! I get to spend hours with animals I love and make a very nice profit doing so. How often do you get to say that? More importantly, why don't you email all of my clients who purchased from me and ask them what was more important to me? Was it selling them a very high quality animal at a fair price? Or was it all about gouging the customer?

For those of you who keep stating that people like MKR are simply in it for the money. Why don't you instead ask yourself why your prices are so high? It would appear to me, and countless others, that your motivations simply come down to "it's all about the money." Funny how that is so easily and appropriately turn around, isn't it?

Griz

PS Not that I should need to but I will. The vast majority of the above post is not direct towards you Bill but to the masses as a whole.

 

[Griz]

Bob,

Look at it this way. Say you just bought your pair of sunglows last year and paid $6K for them. This year out of the blue, another breeder comes in with dozens of pairs for sale at $1K per pair (and a week before one of the largest shows in the country is to take place no less). This causes a huge disruption in the market and in turn it causes others to have to adjust down just to try and recoup a portion of what they have invested in their breeding stock. You would not be upset? That's just a market correction? It's OK for someone to drop the market out from under you?

Steve there is a difference between being frustrated (of which I would be) and publically, as well as privately, attacking someone. When I buy animals I know full well that I will not get my investment back unless I produce large quantities. I FULLY anticipate that prices will go down. They have to. But, it's called market volatility and it's part and parcel to this industry (as well as countless others).

Griz

 

[Griz]

bob,i really dont know what it is your mad at.
is it the rude email i sent you months ago.
is it this thread that i started here.
is it the coral sunglow boa that you tried to beat me down on in price.

if you have something you want to talk about,call me or email me.it dont belong on this thread.

Then you really are dense. I get mad when individuals like you show their true color. I get mad when you apologize to me only to be calling someone else out from the side of your mouth. I get mad when you come onto this thread and outright lie about items to try and bolster your claims. After all, why don't you post my emails about this coral sunglow you have. You can't because they never ocurred. I believe I emailed you one time asking why you adjusted your prices but never did I try to beat you down on price. After all, I would NEVER buy an animal from you solely based upon your lack of professionalism.

Griz

 

[Griz]

We just need to make sure we do the things we do for the right reasons.

And what better reason is there then to support one's family Bill?

Griz

 

[Ed Clark]

bob,it seems that your only reason to post on this thread is to support MKR and the way they went about selling their 06 production.listen when 99% of the sellers are selling at 10,000.and someone pops up with a price of say 5000. people are going to be pissed off at the low ball seller,even thought the low ball seller thinks he has the better marketing plan.people will still be pissed off .
they now have a name for the low ball seller,PRICE CRUSHER.

 

[Griz]

bob,it seems that your only reason to post on this thread is to support MKR and the way they went about selling their 06 production.listen when 99% of the sellers are selling at 10,000.and someone pops up with a price of say 5000. people are going to be pissed off at the low ball seller,even thought the low ball seller thinks he has the better marketing plan.people will still be pissed off .

My ONLY reason for posting on this thread Ed is to stop YOUR bs. Ed, read my prior post to Steve. In response to his scenario (much like the one you posed), I stated I can understand being frustrated. However, you have to come to the point where you are either the leader or the follower. I choose the former. This is all part of being in business and you simply have to be smart enough and have the where with all, to make contingency plans.

Where I draw the line is when YOU send out rude and under the right light, threatening emails to people questioning their motivations without having ANY of the facts! Or, coming onto a very public, probably the most active reptile website on the net, and make a post like you did.

Be frustrated all you want but don't you dare garner up the audacity to question my motivations regarding MY animals. The same goes for MKR. They are HIS animals Ed. Plain and simple. Get pissed all you want but adjust. Stop the whining, stop the harassing emails, and get on with developing a better marketing plan to where it's YOU that end up in the lead.

Griz

 

[Griz]

Let me add one other thing. There is another thread in this very forum about MKR. In that post, it states that MKR has publically stated that they are out to break the various markets. If this is their stated goal then I will take any and all defenses back regarding them. It's one thing to simply set your prices how you want them. It's a whole different ball game when you are deliberately attacking the market simply for the sake of it.

I still stand 100% by the remainder of my posts about my animals/ my prices and the audacity of those trying to interfere.

Griz

 

[SPJ]

I agree Bob.

ANYONE can sell their animals at ANY price they want. I have no problem with that.

What MKR did IMO was a deliberate and calculated move to release a large quantity of animals onto the market at greatly reduced prices to cause a market decline faster than you would normally see.

No one should threaten violence but I also don't feel that they are a business that should be patronized. There is more to buying an animal than low price.

No one is arguing that co-doms will decline in price steadily each year that they are out. That is to be expected. Even recessives will decline the more time they are in the market.

If they listed 5 or 10 I don't think anyone would have said anything. To list over 100 animals at greatly reduced prices all at once, right before Daytona, IMO means they are purposely trying to hurt peoples businesses.

 

[SVT Snake]

Well here is my .02 as one of the little guys trying to get started. MKR claims to be trying to help out the little guys by selling at such a low price. They are in fact hurting the little guys more than the big guys with their tactics. I don't have a huge amount of capital to invest to get started, so I save as much as I can to buy what I can afford. It really sucks to spend $3000 on a snake and then two months later it is only worth half that. There isn't that much depreciation in new cars. Between this little stunt and the whole TSE fiasco it really leaves a bad taste.

 

[Griz]

To list over 100 animals at greatly reduced prices all at once, right before Daytona, IMO means they are purposely trying to hurt peoples businesses.

And therein lies the question. Motivation. If it's simply to have a negative impact on the market then I agree with your stance. If it's a private breeder and they are pricing their animals based upon their needs then it's a whole different story.

Griz

 

[Ed Clark]

Mkr ,bringing It Back To The People.hahaha

Derek,i agree with you 100% i bought into the mojaves 2 years ago and paid $5000.00 each .females are not yet big enought to breed,but have produced a few by breeding to normal females.i started this thread,questioning mkr's business practices,not every low ball seller out there.in a free market economy they are entitled to sell at what ever price that they choose to.i do not have to agree or like it that also is my choice and opionion.mkr's logic was flawed,in the fact that they were telling people what a good investment the mojaves were at say 5000.00,then turning around and having total disregard to what they were telling people and not having any respect for the tens of thousands of dollars that were invested in these snakes.and yes when you are spending many thousands of dollars it is no longer a hobby.it is a serious investment.

Bob,you seem to have taken this as an attack on you.it is not.i disagree with your low ball selling tactics.but you are entitled to sell your boas at whatever price you desire.

 

[Griz]

Bob,you seem to have taken this as an attack on you.it is not.i disagree with your low ball selling tactics.but you are entitled to sell your boas at whatever price you desire.

Interesting comment because I disagree with your price gouging selling tactics. But, you are entitled to sell (or at least advertise) your animals at whatever price you desire.

Griz

 

[Ed Clark]

Bob,its Interesting That You Would Accuse Me Of Price Gouging,i Set My Prices At A Little Below What I Think The Current Market Is.and It Is Working Out Real Well That Way.i Do Produce Some Never Before Seen Bp Morphs.pricing Is Quite High On Those,but They Always Sell.must Be Doing Something Right.and Thank You For Allowing Me To Sell At Whatever Prices I Desire.