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It's been OVER a year!!!

Art,
This is in response to your responses to my previous post....

""He has taken responsibilty for POSSIBLY sending you the wrong sex of the snake."  Not to me.  My discussions with the seller have ended, I'm moving on."

He admited it on this thread.  His discussions ended w/you because he owes you nothing.

""You don't even have pics!!!"  Why would I take pix of a dead animal I own.  I had no reason to suspect that it was a male until after it was already disposed of by the vet.  Please read prior comments before providing feedback. Thank you."

I read the prior comments.  I made it clear that it was basically bad luck that the vet threw it out.  But, you should have told the vet to not dispose of the body.  It is true that you would have no idea that there would be reason to, but it's still ultimately your fault.  The REASON you would need pics of a dead animal that you owned is for PROOF that the animal that was sent to you was, in fact, missexed.  You have 0 proof that the boa is even dead, and you have no way of proving it.  As of now, as we have pointed out, it is solely your word.  He can't be held reponsible for a missexed snake after 13 months based on your word alone.  Come on.  This all goes back to the point of sexing the boa back when you got it.  Why are YOU "passing the buck?"  Why didn't you sex the boa?<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>??

"Lucas if I sold you a snake as a female and it turned out male I would feel that I owe you something back. But that's just me."

Of course I would expect something back.  But, there is no way I would expect anything back after 13 months and especially with NO BODY and NO PROOF that the animal is even dead.  The fact is that you should have sexed the snake when you got it, and then I'm sure Eric would have either taken the snake back or paid you the difference.  This is your fault, not his.  I check the sex of every animal that I get.  I also want to point out the he wanted you to fax the info to a different company to discuss your reputation, which makes me think that he was at least thinking about a refund, that is, if you had a good reputation.  I have no idea what your reputation is, but I'm thinking that is irrelevent to the seller by now.  

"I appreciate your feedback but Please read prior comments before providing feedback. Thank you

Certainly there are no clear answers to the questions posed."

I read the prior comments.  I think that is obvious in both posts.  Most everyone here is in agreement that this on you, not the seller, maybe you need to do some re-reading and re-thinking.  The answers are crystal clear.  Instead of lecturing me on "reading prior posts," maybe you should take the time to learn about having some type of proof of something before you go and ask for money back or attempt to damage someone's reputation by bringing something like this public.    
Thank you,
Lucas Denning

P.S. I'm glad you appreciate my feedback.
 
First, I'd like to state that I don't know either party involved and I have read this entire thread.  Here's my .02 cents on it:

Eric was in the wrong for not checking the sex of the snake himself, regardless of the original supplier's reputation.  Period, end of his liability in this matter.

Art was in the wrong for not sexing the snake on receipt of the animal, not having a necropsy done as soon as the snake died, not taking pictures for proof, waiting 13 months to notify the seller of a problem, etc. etc. etc.

When I receive an animal, I usually have it checked by the vet for overall health unless I know the source well.  I also have it sexed at the same time.  There are some exceptions to this rule, but not on breeding stock.  I keep records on all my animals in a notebook, including who I got the animal from and all their contact information.  The only exceptions to this rule are any rescues I get though I often keep some information on them, too.  Everything is right there at my fingertips along with my feeding/husbandry notes.

Eric would only be responsible to issue a refund (providing his terms & conditions stated this) if he were notified in a reasonable amount of time (i.e. 24-72 hours) and only for an exchange of animals or the difference in value, not $200 over one year later and after the animal is dead with no substantial proof it is even the same animal.  It isn't a matter of your honor or your word, it's just rational business practice.  When I sell an animal, and I don't do this very often, I only give a 24-48 hour guaranty.  I know my animals are healthy and that most likely no-one would cause serious harm in that short a time frame.  I basically build it in for buyer's remorse and nothing more because I know what I sell has no health problems and, since I don't ship, there isn't a chance of shipping damages.

To sum it up, it's a shame the snake died and it isn't the gender you thought you purchased, but you are both equally at fault for the gender mistake and you, Art, are solely liable for the death.
 
For what this worth to you guys, I contacted Gulf Coast Reptiles and sent them Art's posting on the Python forum at kingsnake. They have replied back and stated that they will post tonight that the animal that Art recieved is/was 100% FEMALE.  
The reason they can verify this is the FEMALE, as Art stated, she had a rubbing bump on her nose at the the time I recieved her and when Art also recieved her.
Many of you are correct in the fact that I was thinking about refunding the difference between sexes, since I did not sex the animal upon arrival. I chose NOT to because of his "threats" to my reputation and his wanting more animals AND his postings at kingsnake.  
With the e-mail I recieved from GCR, I now have no doubts that the animal was FEMALE!!! I never had any doubts, as I have dealt with Chris for a while now and he's NEVER done me wrong!! Look for their posting, as I will be. Thanks guys, Eric Burkett
 
I really have to say this because no one else has... Why on Earth would you vaccinate a reptile against rabies? Only mammals get that disease! If both you and your vet think such a vaccination is necssary....  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>

Erin Benner
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
I really have to say this because no one else has... Why on Earth would you vaccinate a reptile against rabies? Only mammals get that disease! If both you and your vet think such a vaccination is necssary....  
Erin Benner </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
why onearth  would you vaccinate a DEAD reptile
 
Hey Art,

The picture of the document provided (thanks Ritchie), is a little hazy, so maybe I just can't see it clearly, but where exactly does that paper say that your animal is dead?

That vaccination form is exactly what is claims to be.  It has a format that includes one area entitled "This is to certify" wherein the vet has had typed the words, "that I have vaccinated the animal described below against rabies."  Now that field ("This is to certify") will be present on all of the blank vaccination reports that vet produces.  However, the words in that field had to be entered into his system the same way that somone entered in the information stating that it was "100% het" for albino.  Therefore, the phrase saying, "I have vaccinated the animal described below against rabies" is not part of the defaulted form, but rather information entered at the time of the service.  

That being the case, it would appear that the animal was alive enough to be vaccinated at the time of that report, which was after the date of death you previously asserted.  That is an issue that you would have to clear up before you could be believed in any of this, in my estimation.

It is strange to vaccinate a herp for a mammal disease, but it is even more strange to vaccinate a dead herp for anything!  Art, I look forward to you addressing this issue, and answering the question(s) about your breeding attempts with this animal.

I also look forward to the post by the breeder of the animal in question.  If it can be shown that the animal was indeed female, we may well have uncovered another individual for whom we should all be on guard!
 
Hi,

I consider myself to be a ball python guy myself but am a bit concerned about what I am reading.  Regardless of compensation here are a couple points that are a bit weird:

1)  Eric admits to selling a snake that he has not sexed himself.  What kind of "reputable"  breeder would sell a snake that he has not sexed himself?  

2) I can't tell but it doesn't look like Eric actually spoke to Al to try to work things out.  Now in my book if I sold a parrot to somebody and later on that person was disappointed that the parrot didn't cook and clean, I would at least call the guy to straighten it out.  Sounds like Eric was to ashamed to because he knew he was wrong. It's called customer service 101, put out the smoke before there is a fire, unless one is hiding something.

3)  Eric admits to not sexing the snake
Al claims that the snake turned out to be a male
Al has documents that back up his claim

Add it up folks, it's enough reasonable doubt to take seriously.  In police it's called LOGIC, the most logical explaination is 9 times out of 10 the real answer.   As for the Oliver Stone theories, man, save that for the mystery books.

4) Liability for an item (unless specifically stated otherwise) can extend beyond the first 48 hours in my book.   You buy a rolex and find out 2 years later that  INSIDE it's a fake.
You guy a chevy and find out 3 years later that the seat belts are defective.  My boy you are liabel, it's call a RECALL.

As for getting documentation from Gulf whatever a year  after the deal, now that sounds like the most FISHY thing of all.  Hold on I have the winning lottery ticket for last week also, hold on, i'm filling it out now, almost finished, there it IS!

Now that's just my opionion, please don't cruxify me as is common place here.  I want to buy some balls.  Just not from anyone on these threads.

Please don't shoot me, I don't have probes nor do I sex animals when I get them because of that.  Please forgive me.

Neither guy sounds like they are bad guys, just bad things happened.  But the mudslinging  is way out of hand.

Mark
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Add it up folks, it's enough reasonable doubt to take seriously.  In police it's called LOGIC, the most logical explaination is 9 times out of 10 the real answer.   As for the Oliver Stone theories, man, save that for the mystery books.
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>  I am glad you said that...
the most logical explanation is 9 times out of 10 the real answer.

Take a look at the picture again
necropsy.jpg


Now ask yourself
1. Since when do Veterinarians give RABIES vaccinations to dead snakes?
2.  How come he can ask for that pice of paper but could not ask for the necropsy paper?

you said it yourself...most logical explanation....  what I can come up with is someone is trying to pull a fast one.

no mud slinging no nothing....  that is just what I can come up with in my mind.


Also you forgot one thing....the boa is supposedly dead.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You guy a chevy and find out 3 years later that the seat belts are defective.  My boy you are liabel, it's call a RECALL</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>  Yes a recall.... chevy would be responsible....but you are forgetting one small problem...  THE BOA IS DEAD.  It is the equivalent of the chevy being stolen or burning to the ground.

you want him to give a refund on a dead snake......just like you would want chevy to replace the seatbelts on your car that burnt to the ground?     does not make much "logical" sense does it?.

He would be responsible if the boa was still alive
 
Sounds to me like one guy has the facts and the other one is creating them on the spot, as he goes along.

I think that there is a good question here:
What if the het turned out not to be a het?

Agreed that both should have probed the snakes.  But does everybody have probes?  Are we saying to beginners, it's your  fault for not sexing the snake. Is this the message we are leaving?

Are we doing good clean business not shirking our responsibilities.  

We all have a responsibility to bring a good face to the hobby.

I'd be upset too if somebody sold me an animal sexed incorrectly even worst, not sexed at all!  It's bad enough paying good money for  an animal and having it drop dead later on.

Male HET balls go for about $250 right? and females close to a grand right?

I'd be all over the guy that sold it to you.

As Bob Marley said it:
"Get up, stand up, for your rights, don't give up the fight"

Good Luck Guys

     Peaceout
     Dee
 
I guess some people can't read.
His only "proof"  
is a vaccination certificate.
AGAIN
since when do vets vaccinate DEAD Reptiles for rabies?

Mark and Darrell no offense..... but you have to look at both sides.  You seem to have missed a couple things.

1.  We all know the seller should be responsible ....BUT  NOT
for a non existent reptile.
2.  His only "proof"  is not much of a proof.(vaccination record for a reptile?  give me a break)
3.  He asked for documentation....he should have asked for the necropsy report which should have been in the vets office somewhere.  Instead they fill out a vaccination report which is VERY fishy.

Mark and Darrell  I find it kinda odd....you both registered today  June 20, 2002    one of you registered at 7:24 pm the other at around 8<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>1 pm... thirty five minutes apart.

I am not saying anything bad.  BUT
What are the chances?
1.  Two different people registering the same day.
2.  They both register within 35 minutes of each other.
3.  they both post within 35 minutes of each other.
4.  Both of them post their first post in this thread.

You are either friends of Arts whom he called to come here and defend him..OR..... you might be the same person......OR......this is all just a coincidence.


</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Sounds to me like one guy has the facts and the other one is creating them on the spot, as he goes along</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>  Here is a fact for you....According to art...the snake was dead before it was vaccinated for rabies.....
 
I think we all agree that the snakes should have been probed by Eric in the first place before he sold them.  
And I think we can all agree that the snake in question is dead.  
And I think we can all agree that the "report" provided by Art is not a necropsy report, but a rabies vaccination report dated after the snake was said to have died.  Yes, it appears to have been signed by the vet.  Art did not appear to lie about that one bit.  BUT, as Ritchie has so eloquently asked, why was a DEAD SNAKE given a rabies vaccination?  I was not aware that dead reptiles could carry a STRICTLY MAMMALIAN disease.  I guess I am ignorant, though, since I am not a vet(not a dig at vets in general, but only at THIS one).  
I agree with Ritchie, I think someone is trying to pull a fast one, and it isn't working.
 
Why isn't that special!

Both Darrell Woodman and Mark Spano share the same IP address.  One has a hotmail email address and the other a yahoo account.

Well, well.  Could have fooled me.  I thought for CERTAIN it was two different people there.   <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>

Now, their IP address doesn't match up with anyone else in this thread, but in my opinion, the manner in which *they* write seems awful familiar.

BTW, can anyone discern ArtC's real name from that veterinarian's certificate?  So far he has refused to provide it, so perhaps he is intent on hiding behind his semi-anonymous postings.   This is one of those times where adherring to my rules about deleting all anonymous postings may not be in everyone's best interests.
 
All I know is, this is a ridiculous argument.  If you wait more than three days to complain to a seller, you are assuming responsibility for your purchase.  

This case is simple.  ArtC did not sex the snake, it's HIS fault, right out of the gate.  Eric may not have sexed it, and sold it as female, but that is why we use the term "buyer beware".  As previous posters have stated, NO ONE offers a 13 month guarantee on a live animal.  NO ONE in their right mind offers a guarantee of more than 1
 
his post on kingsnake had this

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Entered from spider-mtc-tk021.proxy.aol.com at 64.12.107.26 with HTTP/1.0--1023538274--->
   **BEWARE**  Don't get ripped off like I did!!!!!!!!</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

so I guess he has aol?
 
As far as I can tell, his name is Arthur Cerda.   <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>   <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>   <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>
 
Mark Spano/Darrell Woodman (any other names we should know about?), I was going to adress your replies separately, but since the Webslave made that not-too-startling revelation, I'll condense them into one...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1)  Eric admits to selling a snake that he has not sexed himself.  What kind of "reputable"  breeder would sell a snake that he has not sexed himself? </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
One who had made the exact same mistake that Art did. Chris & the rest of the crew at Gulf Coast are generally very reputable and knowledgable folks.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">2) I can't tell but it doesn't look like Eric actually spoke to Al to try to work things out.  Now in my book if I sold a parrot to somebody and later on that person was disappointed that the parrot didn't cook and clean, I would at least call the guy to straighten it out.  Sounds like Eric was to ashamed to because he knew he was wrong. It's called customer service 101, put out the smoke before there is a fire, unless one is hiding something.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
If you can't tell, then why are you making the assumption that Eric is ashamed/hiding something? Tell us something... in your parrot scenerio, is the parrot still in the customer's possession?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Eric admits to not sexing the snake
Al claims that the snake turned out to be a male
Al has documents that back up his claim</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
The first two statements are true. The third is dubious at best. What Al has presented is a certificate of vaccination for a male boa with the words "on necropsy" penned in. I am curious as to why Dr. Bruerderle (who seems to be a fairly competent reptile vet from the information that I have gathered) would give Art a vaccination certificate instead of a necropsy report.

Regardless of the answer, the type of document is actually a non-issue. It is not tangible evidence concerning the snake that Eric sold to Art. Merely, it shows that a boa was apparently determined to be male upon being necropsied.
 
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