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    Posted 08/15/2025
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    Yeah, I know. They are a pain in the butt. But they pay the bills to keep my server running. Just a fact of life, I am afraid.

    Want to get rid of them? Simple. Just become a Contributor level member or above and they will be gone. -> Please click HERE."

    Is that too much for me to ask of you to keep this site running? Well, sorry about that. I too wish I could get everything for free. But alas.....

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    Addendum: 01/10/2026
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    Google Adsense ad revenue for December, 2025 was just $30 over the cost of the lease for the server running this site. So, in effect, the money providing the incentive for me to continue running this site is coming SOLELY from the paid memberships and sponsorships here. Which honestly ain't much....

It's been OVER a year!!!

Okay, I had a momentary lapse and hit the 'add reply' button, so here's the rest...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Add it up folks, it's enough reasonable doubt to take seriously.  In police it's called LOGIC, the most logical explaination is 9 times out of 10 the real answer.   As for the Oliver Stone theories, man, save that for the mystery books</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Unfortunately, it can also be said that there is a reasonable doubt on the other side of the coin. As I previously said, no tangible proof has been provided. If you honestly think that what people are posting is "Oliver Stone theories", then you might not have been in herps long enough. Cons are just as prevelant in this business as in any other. I'm not saying that Art is one of these people.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">4) Liability for an item (unless specifically stated otherwise) can extend beyond the first 48 hours in my book.
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
9300 hours? As I have stated time and again, you'll be hard pressed to find anyone that will offer a thirteen month satisfaction guarantee, especially after the animal has been dead for seven months.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You buy a rolex and find out 2 years later that  INSIDE it's a fake.
You guy a chevy and find out 3 years later that the seat belts are defective.  My boy you are liabel, it's call a RECALL.
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Apples and oranges. In the above circumstances, you actually have the merchandise to support your claim. Try going to a jeweler and demanding a refund/credit for the watch without having the watch in hand. Or, go to Chevy and complain about seatbelts on a car that was totaled several months ago.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As for getting documentation from Gulf whatever a year  after the deal, now that sounds like the most FISHY thing of all.  Hold on I have the winning lottery ticket for last week also, hold on, i'm filling it out now, almost finished, there it IS!</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Almost as fishy as a rabies vaccination certificte for a snake? Or just as fishy as seeking compensation for a snake without having any tangible evidence?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Now that's just my opionion, please don't cruxify me as is common place here.  I want to buy some balls.  Just not from anyone on these threads.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
The crucification will be in regards to posting under two different names. As you have stated, the most logical explanation is nine times out of ten the real answer. However, I'm not going to conclude that this isn't just that one time out of ten that things are not what they appear.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Neither guy sounds like they are bad guys, just bad things happened.  But the mudslinging  is way out of hand.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I'm curious then. Why did you include some subtle ad hominem in your post if you don't feel that Eric is a bad guy and the mudslinging is way out of hand?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Sounds to me like one guy has the facts and the other one is creating them on the spot, as he goes along.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I agree. It does look like Eric has stated all the facts.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think that there is a good question here:
What if the het turned out not to be a het?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Since it's apparently dead, I guess we'll never know. I think there's another good question here though- What if people actually posted using just one name?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Agreed that both should have probed the snakes.  But does everybody have probes?  Are we saying to beginners, it's your  fault for not sexing the snake. Is this the message we are leaving?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Pretty much. If they can't sex the snake themselves, they should at least have access to someone locally that can do it, whether it be from a friend, herp society, or vet.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Are we doing good clean business not shirking our responsibilities.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Yes. The seller has a responsibility to honestly represent an animal. Mistakes made in good faith are excusable, but should be taken care of, so long as the seller is notified within a reasonable amount of time. In this instance, a reasonable amount of time has passed, and then some. Additionally, the only "proof" presented by the buyer was a rabies vaccination certificate with the words 'on necropsy' penned in.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">We all have a responsibility to bring a good face to the hobby</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
It applies to the buyer just as well. It's a sad state of affairs when sellers have to dedicate a full page of their site to terms & conditions just to protect themselves from certain tactics and cons.
 
Let me clarify something from my earlier posts, because my replies could very easily be taken the wrong way. I do not personally feel that Art is trying to pull a scam. I am merely stating (repetitively, it seems) why I feel compensation is not warranted under the circumstances.
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Almost as fishy as a rabies vaccination certificte for a snake? </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

When a DVM vaccinates a mammal against rabies he is required by law to fill out the form with the following: name of the manufacturer of the vaccine, serial #, expiration date, and administration date.

None of those items were filled in this form. I don't know as of why this DVM in particular used a pre-printed vaccination form to report a necropsy of a snake. Maybe because he did not have a necropsy form in which to report (pretty sloppy, but that's the only explanation I can think of).

The snake was never vaccinated after it died. The fact is that it was never vaccinated at all

What I am curious about though is why didn't he sign the form. It has his name printed and his ID but no signature.

Maybe Art can clarify this or better yet his vet.

Regards,
 
At no point have I ever attempted to hide my identity, it's clearly posted on kingsnake and has been since the beginning.  Its a name that I take pride in. Better yet, by the way here's my phone number 312/951-6253, give me a call.

1) I have a signed document from an accredited, licensed vet. which states that the animal that he disected thought to be a 100% het for albino female purchased from the "seller" in this case is in fact a male (of course the snake was never vaccinated, end of that discussion). Nice smokescreen!
Very simple the vet signed right next to the Male printed on the document thus confirming his sex determination with a signature.

2) no necropsy involving tissue samples because I froze the snake (I made the mistake of freezing it to avoid the stink, I never had a snake die on me before or since) Disection of a reptile is called necropsy although in this case, not involving tissue samples.

BOTTOM LINE: Go ahead boys, slam all you want but I'll stand by my vet's word.  Using one of your own arguments "probing is not completely foolproof"  Cutting an animal open and seeing hemipenes is foolproof and the certified, accredited vet documented his findings by signing the document, and thus standing by his statement that the animal he disected was in fact a male.  

Art
 
Art,
I don't see what you're trying to win or prove here.  This all goes back to the simple fact that it's 13 months later.  You have 0 proof.  What do you not understand about that?  I don't see what you expect the dealer to do here.  Use any business analogy you want.  You simply can't bring something back with 0 proof.  You can't go to the grocery store with the receipt and say that the peaches you bought are moldy.  They'll say.  Ok, where are the peaches?  Do you understand the point here?  It seems so incredibly simple.  
The dealer has no way of knowing whether or not the snake the vet saw was even the same snake.  Like someone else said, you have a report about A boa.  Not THE boa.
-lucas
 
Here are my opinions....I know EVERYBODY likes opinions.....

4 years ago, we decided to proceed with our albino monacled cobra breeding program.  We had purchased a large "female" het for albino to breed with our 7 year old male albino.  You see, there is a problem when cobras are sexed wrong....THEY EAT EACHOTHER, well one eats the other anyway.  After watching them for about 10 minutes and noticing their threat displays to eachother, we immediately removed the "female," probed "her" and found she was a male.  Did we complain to the person we bought "her" from, no, we TOLD him about it, but we then SOLD the snake for much more than we paid, and bought 2 smaller female albinos instead.  WOW, now that worked out great didn't it.  

Last year it was red spitting cobras.  The male wasn't ready to breed yet, but we had 2 good females (confirmed) one female died BEFORE getting the chance to propogate.  Did we complain to the guy we bought her from....NO, it wasn't his fault.  

NOW, this year, we had a mis-sexed gray banded king. Actually 2 of them, we now had 3 male gray banded kings.  Sold to us as a trio.......2 females ended up being males.  We once again Informed the guy we bought them from, and he DID offer credit (this was 3 days after we purchased them) but we just went ahead and sold them again for more money.  

My points here are that when given lemons, make lemonade.  Eric might have been responsible for not sexing the snake when HE got it, but guess what....EVERYONE DOES IT.  As for newbies like one person mentioned.....if their newbies then WHY ARE THEY BREEDING SNAKES IN THE FIRST PLACE, AND, it's not that hard to request that the vendor sex it before you take it home....some pet stores even do this, I know we do.  If this guy is really Midwest, then he should know all of this by now.  He should know that you shouldn't get an animal for breeding purposes and not be absolutely sure of the sex.  This brings up another point, what if Eric HAD sexed it, but it gave a false read, is THAT Eric's fault as well....no, it's the snakes, should (s)he give a refund?

My basic point is, I'm sure that EVERYONE has mis-sexed a snake before, even if you wanted to make a case, the snake USUALLY...wait....ALWAYS needs to be ALIVE to do so.  If he sold it to you for $450, and say he purchased it for $350, then he got rooked too if it's only really worth $250.  I'm actually quite new to the trade (3 years) and it seems that I know more about it then some of the people that have been here for quite some time.  Like I've always said, the reptile business is full of snakes.  Dealing with animals you have to take the good with the bad, just forget about this whole ordeal and mark it up as a bad experience.  If I listed all of my bad experiences, I'd have filled up at least 5 notebooks by now....in only 3 years......DOUBLE CHECK EVERYTHING

Thanks
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1) I have a signed document from an accredited, licensed vet. which states that the animal that he disected thought to be a 100% het for albino female purchased from the "seller" in this case is in fact a male (of course the snake was never vaccinated, end of that discussion). Nice smokescreen!
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Correction....  you have a signed document from an accredited licensed vet.  which states that the animal he "vaccinated" was in fact a male.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">no necropsy involving tissue samples because I froze the snake </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>  okay now there was no necropsy....earlier there was a necropsy but you just did not ask for the report.  Which is it?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">(of course the snake was never vaccinated, end of that discussion)</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>  in another forum someone asked if the snake died because of vaccination.....you answered.."nope before them"    I am not saying you are lying.....I am just saying do not get to excited.....think about what you are typing.
 
This happened to me once before also....right after I first started in this business, I bought a "female" Woma that I sold to a very reputable python breeder (names aren't necessary)....he had the snake for 3 months before he called me and told me that he JUST probed it and it turned out to be a "male"!! It was sold to me as a female (I never probed it myself) by a person who is also a very big python breeder....needless to say....3 months is a long time....but, because of who it was, I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt....now...a "female" Woma is worth about $1000-$1500...whereas a "male" Woma is worth about $500-$800....when he asked for a full refund, that I refused....but, what I did do was to immediately send him 8 baby Colombian Red-tails for FREE (as compensation for the difference in value) and told him to keep the snake! At the time, I thought it was the right thing to do!! Knowing what I know now....I would NOT have done it....I went on HIS WORD ALONE after 3 months!
As far as THIS deal goes....I still say that 13 months is just too long!! ....Neil
 
Eric:  

I always find it amusing that whenever sellers have a problem with a buyer, instead of simply trying to work out the issue, they get on the board of inquiry and expect a group hug from the internet community.  They seek and relish the "there, there, it's okay" comments from the reptile enthusiasts instead of solving the problem themselves.

Eric, here's novel idea. Work out the problem with your buyer.  What do you expect to gain from all this?  The issue IS still between you and your buyer.  Obviously, your goal is to get the whole world to side with you, yet you are forgetting one key factor.  YOU HAVE A DISSATIFIED CUSTOMER! Instead of airing your case to people who really had nothing to do with your transaction, give him a call (or email) and solve the problem.

Save the group hugs for Oprah.


overnout
 
This thread is spinning into the ridiculous.  I hate it once we get to the point where the same stuff is said over and again.  However, it's necessary to ask the same questions over and over when they will not be answered.  I'm going to try this one more time:

1.  Art, were you trying to breed this female?

2.  Art, how long did you try to breed this female?

3.  Art, did you witness copulation?

4.  Art, when you witnessed no copulation, ever, were you not the least bit suspicious?

5.  Art, if the snake had indeed been a female, and she had bred and conceived, would she have died before she could reproduce?

The bottom line is, if this snake was not to be used as a breeder, or if she died before she could have reproduced, then the fact that she was actually a "he" is totally irrelevant!  All of these questions have been asked of you, Art, in one form or another, but you have slipped by them.  Will you now set the record straight for us?

One more point.  It may not be important, but it bothers me nonetheless.  Art, you say that the report you have proves that the snake was a male.  OK, let's go with that for a minute.  Doesn't the very same report also equally prove that the snake was vaccinated after it was dead?  It was entered into the appropriate field by SOMEONE wasn't it?  Also, the animal is identified as a 100% het for albino Boa Constrictor on that report.  How did the vet determine the genetics of that animal?  Was that information there because that's what YOU told them?  Is that how the part about the animal being a male got in the report too?

The final analysis is this: You can't bring accusations of mis-sexing an animal back to a dealer 13 months later, expecting a refund of some sort, unless you can a) show proof, and b) show loss of some sort.  Art, you can't show either.  That report doesn't prove a thing because it never identifies the animal in question as being the one Eric sold you.
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> Instead of airing your case to people who really had nothing to do with your transaction, give him a call (or email) and solve the problem.
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Your forgetting one thing.....Eric put up the facts and asked what he should do.
Art went on another forum and started saying he got robbed.

Of course the customer is dissatisfied....his animal is dead

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Save the group hugs for Oprah</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
go to kingsnake python forum where art was saying he got robbed.  Eric has not posted a response over their....but as you can see...the overwhelming support is for eric.

The only support Art is getting is from no name posters.  meaning people like you...who can't follow the rules and post with full name.  People  who register twice in one day just to show that there are people on Art's side.

Yes it is a disatisfied customer....who has not proven a thing.
He says he was robbed....prove it
He says the animal was male....prove it
He says there was a necropsy report but he never asked for it.....then the story changed to no necropsy.  .....why the two stories
 
Hey jageyevelocity
I find it funny......just like the other two who did not post their names.....

you registered just to post in this thread
are you a real person....or are you made up just like darrel woodman and mark spano?
 
Hey Ritchie,

Do you ever get the impression that Art and his three friends (counteregos) don't read our posts?

Where are the answers to the questions I posted above?  Art, we're patiently waiting.
 
I'm a real person...not a fabricated one.  Name: Ed Ramsay. I have no affiliation with the buyer.  I'm just voicing my opinion.  Now to the matter at hand.

Again.  They buyer and seller should work out their grievances privately.  End of story.
 
I really don't see the problem w/asking fellow herpers/breeders/dealers for opinions and advice on a matter such as this.  
Also, do you admit that it is fishy for 3 new people to all just register and to post on this alone?  Two of them even came from the same IP, meaning same computer, meaning same person.  I think that there is one person behind these 3 identities and I can't help but wonder if it could be Art.  I'm not accusing Art, but I know everyone here does wonder.  
It's really easy to just pick a name out of a phone book.....  
You may be a real person, I may be wrong, I'm just telling you what people are going to naturally think.  I mean we've seen it countless times on this forum alone.  Can you blame me?
-Lucas Denning
 
Lucas:

I don't blame you at all.  People are going to think what ever they want to.  The issue has been beaten to death.  My solution is both the buyer and seller should solve the problem themselves.  

It's easy to be skeptical.  We're on this forum trading words, so obviously you can only speculate whether or not I'm a real person or a crony of the seller.  I'm sure some enquiring minds (and there are alot on this post) will research my email address, what my real name is...which by the way is  Ed Ramsay and my identifcation number to see whether or not I
exist.  

The issue is between the buyer and seller.  It's very simple. That's all.
 
I know it's not important or anything, but even if people here do check out your info and stuff, it really doesn't prove much.  Anyone can set up an email account under any name.  That's the problem w/the internet.  I'm not saying you are, but you, or anyone else here, could be ANYONE.  
On the other issue.  The seller did talk to the buyer, and it's over.  The seller decided that he was not going to pay anything for whatever it was that he POSSIBLY did wrong.  He has no responsibility.  Like Art said, he is "defending the truth" I guess.  As am I and everyone else.
lucas
 
Ed (notice that I am assuming that you are the person you said you were&#33<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>),

Part of the use of the BOI Is to post what happened in a specific transaction to see if mistakes were made, expectations are reasonable or not, attitudes are wrong, or if a good guy needs to change in order to be better.  That is how this thread got started.  Eric simply asked all of us if he had done something wrong in his trade that would require him to give a refund to his (then) unnamed customer.  We all offered our opinions as they had been sought, and we all unanimously agreed that Eric should have sexed the snake, but that 13 months was WAY too long for the buyer to come back and complain about it.  That is exactly where things would have ended too, if Art had not come on here and clouded things up with his posted document along with "others" who posted under apparently suspicious conditions.

You're right.  Things like this should be settled between reasonable adults doing business together in business-like fashion.  But when those attempts fail, we all rely on the BOI to help us see where we may have helped the train off the track.  I just thought that you would like to understand why we all have been involved in the this discussion as we have been...We were asked to be involved.
 
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