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James Fanthorpe - furryfriends inc - BEWARE

I had to sell the one female ball to get some money to pay rent. I have responsibilities like that. I lied about how much/what i got for it. I also lied/bluffed about court and cops, none of which i was going to act on. That's just not how I am.
And if you look back, i never said they were sickly. I said some were skinny and most had stuck shed. I was able to get the shed off in a few good sheds and some mineral oil. I have gotten all of them, but one, to feed for me. But only on live.

Why is USPS in ANY of this? We both shipped UPS.
 
He promised over and over that these were 'perfect' animals and fed great and he would 'take care of me'. None of which is true. Misrepresented animals is just as bad as stealing to me.
 
Hi Sara.
If i were you id wash my hands and walk away .The kid will more then likely not come through on the returns or the refund.
Its unfortunate that this happend in this manner.
It could and should have been handled differently by both parties involved.
Chalk it up as a learning experience.
You still show signs of wanting to be professional about this .Then let it go ,wash your hands and say enoughs enough and walk away the bigger person.
Good luck on your fledgling business hope you succeed.

Chris
 
Ty Chris and everyone in chat that have been a good shoulder to cry on. I will still watch this thread, but I am not pursuing James anymore for the animals/money owed. I would post if he did make this right. I just want this out here so people think twice about the 'great deals' he offers them. Deal in person and in cash.
 
Cat. I cannot dispute, nor do I care to, all the details about what perceptions are regarding reselling of animals, etc., and other concerns in this thread. This whole "illegal" thing was not just you, but several who felt a need to use the word in haste, and then undermine the integrity of others with it. If one was a Pied Piper and the rest just lemmings, I do not know or care. But for you to now post twice emphasizing the word "prohibited", when it has been made abundantly clear that even UPS allows its own "prohibited" items on occasion (and sometimes with huge accounts and multiple paid-for "violations") should make it a moot point regarding the characters involved. Its not only "not the issue", its "not an issue". This is rhetorical, and not in need of an answer, but if UPS lists it as "prohibited", and then allows it knowingly, almost invitingly in some cases, what should we call it ? How about "time to move on" :) ?

Clarinet, USPS was only used to show that mammal shipments were not illegal, as had been claimed by others earlier, a few of which said that it not only negated any legal claim you had (not true), but also undermined your integrity (IMO, not true as well).

Cat, I had a reason to be blunt. If I have a pet peeve about the BOI, and I have several, the lead candidate is the mentality that causes people to be in a rush to undermine the integrity of others here in ways that they would not feel were fair if the shoe were on the other foot. Sometimes the benefit-of-the-doubt is in order here, but often overlooked. This thread is just one more example of why I need to hit the highway as well, like so many others. Fear not, I will not let the door hit me in the ass.
 
clarinet45 said:
I had to sell the one female ball to get some money to pay rent. I have responsibilities like that. I lied about how much/what i got for it. I also lied/bluffed about court and cops, none of which i was going to act on. That's just not how I am.
And if you look back, i never said they were sickly. I said some were skinny and most had stuck shed. I was able to get the shed off in a few good sheds and some mineral oil. I have gotten all of them, but one, to feed for me. But only on live.

Why is USPS in ANY of this? We both shipped UPS.
Click to expand...

Sara, if you had to sell one just to make rent, perhaps you need to step back and take a look at priorities. And I just have a serious problem believing people once I know they have lied, and have seen behavior like what was displayed in the IMs. Not only from you, of course.....but I would have expected it much less from you than him. Perhaps that's why I feel so much more disappointed.

And I was just trying to figure out what the USPS had to do with any of it myself, but evidently asking questions like that qualify you as a queen candidate. :rolleyes:
 
Cathy, I'm sorry we are having this conversation. I think very highly of you and have had some great discussions with you. Yes, my big 'mouth' typing got ahead of my in IMs, i regret it but I'm not going to hide it. When i Prue-sold and was expecting $200 worth of rats for the show, and had planned a $600 purchase of hets that i didn't want to back out of, yes, i sold one $50 snake to have some extra cash for and after rent. I later made enough with my beardies at the show that the selling of that one snake didn't make a difference, but i didn't know that at 10am. Does that make sense?
 
I understand what you're saying, Sara. I appreciate you addressing my concerns.....and hope you will be able to chalk this up to a horrible learning experience. At the very least, I think you will be able to learn from your mistakes here. I don't think we can say the same for the other party involved.
 
JIM - It IS ILLEGAL to ship mammals the way they did. Mammals are protected by the USDA, a Federal agency, under the Animal Welfare Act imposed by Congress!

Regardless of UPS internal rules, the federal governments rules still apply. There are minimum standards on shipping containers size, amount of ventilation, temperature restrictions, health record requirements etc. that apply to the shipping of mammals such as gerbils and African rats.

Carriers that transport such animals must be licensed and inspected by the USDA to engage in this activity or they risk fines and penalties.

As far as the people who shipped the animals in this manner they could probably be prosecuted by humane society or ASPCA for sending the animals in that manner with inadequate ventilation and improper temperatures. Even admitting that they did not care if they died in transit! I have seen people prosecuted for cruelty to animals for similar offenses such as leaving a dog in a hot car. We have both parties addresses and information perhaps their local humane societies or usda need to be given this information.......

Animal Welfare act excerpts:
http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/legislat/usdaleg1.htm

(a)(1) Handling of all animals shall be done as expeditiously and
carefully as possible in a manner that does not cause trauma,
overheating, excessive cooling, behavioral stress, physical harm, or
unnecessary discomfort.
Click to expand...
(d) When climatic conditions present a threat to an animal's health or well-being, appropriate measures must be taken to alleviate the
impact of those conditions. An animal may never be subjected to any
combination of temperature, humidity, and time that is detrimental to
the animal's health or well-being, taking into consideration such
factors as the animal's age, species, breed, overall health status, and
acclimation.
Click to expand...
This section specifically mentions guinea pigs and hamsters but would apply to gerbils and african rats as well to give you an idea of how different it is from shipping reptiles:

(a) During surface transportation, it shall be the responsibility of
the driver or other employee to visually observe the live guinea pigs or
hamsters as frequently as circumstances may dictate, but not less than
once every 4 hours, to assure that they are receiving sufficient air for
normal breathing, their ambient temperatures are within the prescribed
limits, all other applicable standards are being complied with and to
determine whether any of the live guinea pigs or hamsters are in obvious
physical distress and to provide any needed veterinary care as soon as
possible. When transported by air, live guinea pigs and hamsters shall
be visually observed by the carrier as frequently as circumstances may
dictate, but not less than once every 4 hours, if the animal cargo space
is accessible during flight. If the animal cargo space is not accessible
during flight, the carrier shall visually observe the live guinea pigs
or hamsters whenever loaded and unloaded and whenever the animal cargo
space is otherwise accessible to assure that they are receiving
sufficient air for normal breathing, their ambient temperatures are
within the prescribed limits, all other applicable standards are being
complied with and to determine whether any such live guinea pigs or
hamsters are in obvious physical distress. The carrier shall provide any
needed veterinary care as soon as possible. No guinea pig or hamster in
obvious physical distress shall be transported in commerce.
Click to expand...
 
DZOO, get real

This is so frivolous compared to the issues here. But, since you went to so much effort, let me remind you that you first said:
You should BOTH be investigated - it is illegal (as well as unethical and cruel) to ship live mammals via UPS or any other carrier except airlines.
Click to expand...

Yet surface transportation is clearly allowed.

Then this:
.... and no mammal is allowed to be shipped UPS period.
Click to expand...

Well then, what if they accept it knowingly ? This issue has already been discussed.

DZOO, the point is not as earlier stated that shipping them is "illegal", but rather, as pointed out my me and others, that the packaging is more what is regulated. It is absolutely not "illegal" to ship via UPS.

And then we get this brilliant analogy:
I have seen people prosecuted for cruelty to animals for similar offenses such as leaving a dog in a hot car.
Click to expand...

Makes sense to me :slamit: Well, I have seen chameleons killed because of heat in shipping, and no one gave a rat's ass (pun intended).

And to top it off, you post this:

Just wondering, Sara has a BOI certified Good guy certificate on her site, after what we've seen/ learned in this thread should she keep this certification?
Click to expand...

How pathetic to even suggest this. So tell me DZOO, who did Sara rip off ? BTW, if you had a clue about the certifications, you would know that only a vote, or changing of votes, can revoke one. Have at it. Just one more example of BOI stupidity.

If you don't want to do business with her ... fine. If you want to criticize them ... that's fine too. But to throw around the "illegal" tag willy nilly, accuse her of engaging in illegal activities, then compare it to dogs in cars ..... do you have a GGC? As the forum equation goes:

Normal person + audience + anonymity = Dumbass
 
Feel free to call the humane society over here. I will show them exactly how I shipped my gerbil and how happy and healthy she was when she got there. As well as my Animals, even my new rats, are kept and how fat and healthy they are.
Yes, i was not planning on the rats dying in transit, I had hoped James knew how to ship. But I was not going to hold 1-2 regular rat DOA's against him as i can still freeze and feed those off. I was told they would be fine, and shipping was his only option. He promised to drive/fly up and hand deliver, but stood me up.

"There are minimum standards on shipping containers size, amount of ventilation, temperature restrictions, health record requirements etc. that apply to the shipping of mammals such as gerbils and African rats."

So you are saying you CAN ship, but only if it's correct? then why are you on my back, James is the one that shipped inhumanely. Despite all this 'illegal' shipping, UPS *knowingling* took the packages.

You are attacking my GGC?? What did I do to deserve this? I can honestly say i'm rather confused.
I can see by your ads, DZOO, that you sell exotic rodents. I honestly want to know how you ship. Post pictures if you have them. Hopefully James will see the pics and save some poor animal's lives.
 
That's an awfully harsh stance to take against the person that ended up getting bent over with this deal, Dzoo. I'm sure it wouldn't have anything to do with the coincidental fact that you sell some of the same rodents that are involved here..and it seems you do some business here in Pa.. One could look at this as a pre-emptive strike against potential future competition if one was so inclined.
 
Dan, you know what's even more pathetic ? This is a community in which many of us feed live rats to snakes. And yet Jon-DZOO seems hell-bent on trying to rake Sara over the coals. No one likes seeing animals demise due to carelessness, even if they are being shipped to sacrifice as feeders (or to become the breeders for feeders). Its bad business. But this over-the-top position by Jon is ignorant. Jon, I will assume that you are good at what you do. Why this nonsense here? Is it the Dumbass syndrome?
 
Agreed. I don't think any animal should suffer any more than is absolutely necessary..even feeders. Even with that in mind, the aggressive position he's taken against her is at best mis-placed. The animals Sara sent arrived alive and healthy..certain rings of humane treatment to me. James, on the other hand..
 
Ok sorry about questioning her Good Guy status. After re-reading this thread she is clearly a good guy. She did not rip anyone off and I never said she did.

Yes, I do raise some rodents. I do not ship them. It is too expensive and too much of a hassle to do it correctly. #1 the only way is through the airlines, and I am not a "Verified Shipper". I sell my rodents at reptile shows or directly to a wholesaler.

I have had rodents shipped TO me though. They are shipped in Taconic crates or Vari Kennels. They are shipped through the airlines, airport to airport usually Delta Dash, same day. Obviously this is expensive and would not be a viable option for feeder rodents. Those do come to me via UPS but they are FROZEN and on dry ice.

I have had people want to ship me rodents through Fed Ex, UPS etc. or wanted me to ship them animals that way mainly to save money. I have never even entertained the idea. I would not risk the animals lives first or my reputation second should I be caught.

Obviously the death of a few rodents isn't a big concern to some folks on this thread but it is to me. If it was a puppy I guess people would care more.

Another greater issue with shipping the live rodents through UPS etc. is that if UPS et al. start having a lot of problems with people shipping animals that are not allowed ,maybe they will just ban the shipping of ALL live animals- where will that leave the reptile hobby?
 
I confess my ignorance on shipping rodents. I only have experience with reptiles and didn't realize there were regulations like this in place. I guess i underestimated how much oxygen rodents versus reptiles would take up. But that is why I was so peeved that James didn't have any air holes in his rat tub, every inch was taped over. no water, no food, no cool packs [He's in NC for gawd's sake!] and smothered in bedding. Between throwing up from the smell, i was disgusted the way he treated them.
 
Jon,
All good points ... except the last one. I couldn't agree more that those of us who benefit by UPS shipping allowances (or other carriers) are each keenly aware of not rocking that boat. While each of us has settled with a primary carrier that works for us, we still have times where we have to "lump it" when something goes wrong, lest we add to any reasons the carrier may have to reevaluate their live animal policies. At the same time, how can I condemn someone who ships a "prohibited" item with the full knowledge of UPS, often with a UPS account worth tens of thousands of dollars per year with UPS ? And if I can't condemn them, how can I have an issue with the little guys that get one in ? On the flip side, you know more than many of us about the intricacies of shipping rodents, and are in a good position to help warn us before mistakes are made.

I thank you for backing off the pressure on Sara. I have nothing but confidence in her should I ever be in a position to recommend her. Honest mistakes are made by honest people. We learn. We move on.
 
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