Jason Whitecotton AKA both Fauna members Deacon, deacon31280 Bad Guy!

[H_Moss]

Really Bad Business

It's people like this that make it where you just cant have full confidence in anyone.This is why I will probably drive to get my snakes.Go to a Reptile Expo or Deal with a very highly recomended Breeder. Sorry to here or maybe I should say see that you picked one of the many Bad Apples in this world.

Good Luck,
Harmon

 

[Jim O]

The "out to lunch" excuse just doesn't fly.

Perhaps it does if he thinks we buy it.

Deacon,

Blaming it on the guy at the shop for packing it wrong is simply shirking your responsibility to make sure that it was packed correctly. Even if someone else packed it for you, in the end, that the packing is done correctly is on you. It wasn't, and that is your responsibility 100%.

hey dave hope you like the lawsuit you got coming for displaying my full name and work information (that has nothing to do with reptiles) all over the internet

Classic loser sign is threatening a lawsuit. Evidently you have little understanding of the law. Once you transmitted this info to Dave you were no longer entitled to any expectation of privacy. Beside, what damages has he caused to your "reputation" based in its disclosure?

 

[deacon31280]

snakes

This is my last response about the situation! I understand everyone here plays computer heros reading everyones post and in the end of 2-3 days your an expert! Feeding off everyone elses comments and such! I have offered to make it right he has stated he will get back to me this evening after his expo! I have stated I am sorry this happened but what is the point of constantly repeating what others have posted about this issue? People make mistakes and even when they offer apologies and to make it right its the OTHER PEOPLE who make it thier business and run things into the ground that have absolutely nothing to do with them. I want to do what it takes, but good grief it does not take 9 pages of this crap plus more to come when it does nothing more than i stated when i saw this on here! I want to make this right with DAVE, NO ONE else! If dave can forgive me and be satisfied with what we can come to agreement with its cool but people try to make suggestions and take over what is going on when its between DAVE and I! I will not respond to anymore post on here about "your responsibilty" and such post because IM NOT A PRO AT THIS! I am learning I make mistakes and I was wrong! Everyonr regardless of how MANY POST RESPONSES YOU HAVE has been in my position as a student in this business/hobby/lifestyle. I have done what I can do until we come up with something to resolve this so PLEASE dont bagger the situation!!!

 

[Wilomn]

Ok, I've started and deleted this post twice. The smartass in me just has to know though.

How does one "bagger" a situation?

I also stand by my previous advice that you should NOT respond to any post here at all, but somehow, I suspect you will continue.

 

[David Scarboro]

I guess that you know...

Deacon, that is is illegal to keep, sell, trade or ship cornsnakes (morphs or otherwise) in Georgia. I just noticed that you are from Lafayette. I imagine that will be someone else's fault too, and you will say that "I am "baggering" the situation even worse"!!!

 

[Wilomn]

Deacon, that is is illegal to keep, sell, trade or ship cornsnakes (morphs or otherwise) in Georgia. I just noticed that you are from Lafayette. I imagine that will be someone else's fault too, and you will say that "I am "baggering" the situation even worse"!!!

Would that make it illegal for the one purchasing from him also?

How interesting the twists and turns of an average saturday morning.

 

[SPJ]

Good point Wes.

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

Would that make it illegal for the one purchasing from him also?

How interesting the twists and turns of an average saturday morning.

I don't believe it does. As the seller, Jason is responsible for knowing the laws of his state of residence. As long as the animals are legal in David's state, I do not think he is in any way liable in that instance. To the best of my knowledge that is.

Anyone who knows different, please feel free to correct me.

 

[The BoidSmith]

I don't believe it does. As the seller, Jason is responsible for knowing the laws of his state of residence. As long as the animals are legal in David's state, I do not think he is in any way liable in that instance. To the best of my knowledge that is.

Anyone who knows different, please feel free to correct me.

John,

I'm no lawyer but as far as I can understand anyone knowingly purchasing illegal property can be held liable. The corollary to this (and that's why I bolded "knowingly") is that "Ignorance of the law is no excuse". Now, had I been in David's shoes, I would have probably fell for the same as I was unaware about the GA DNR regulations.

Regards.

 

[Chameleon Company]

I don't think so Dan. Again, it goes back to applicable state laws in any given state. They may be illegal to possess in GA, but they are no longer illegal outside GA in states that allow them. If hey had been collected in GA, and violated a law regarding such in GA, then the long arm of GA may be able to reach out and get them back. There are potential wrinkles to everything, such as if the buyer went to GA to buy the items, thereby possessing them in GA. But the role of the purchaser here is only as an out-of-state buyer.

 

[FireDrake]

I just sold Jason two bearded dragons, and packed them properly with insulation, newspaper and a heat pack.... He could have just reused the box....

Sarah

 

[The BoidSmith]

Jim,

So what you are saying is that as a buyer you would not be held responsible regardless of their origin. You may be right, although in international traffic the buyer is responsible to provide proof to the USFWS that the animals he purchased were legally obtained in the country of origin. Maybe those are different dispositions though. Thanks for the clarification.

Regards.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Dan,
Without looking at the specific instance that would involve USFWS, the key there is the "US", as they would be involved in enforcing Federal Statutes involving indigenous animals under some sort of Federal Protection, and interstate commerce of such, or laws governing the import of animals from outside the U.S., often in concert with CITES recommendations that are embraced by a Federal Statute, with permits, etc. If it could be shown that an out-of-state buyer conspired to help someone in GA possess a corn snake, then there may be a statute in GA that could come into play. But in this case, the buyer could be anyone, none of whom conspired with the seller to procure the animal, as the seller was offering it to anyone. If I were to contract with the seller to go out and get me "100 Georgia corns", it might be different as well. In a case like this, they would bust the seller bigtime so as to make an example. We see it often enough. But I can't see them expending any resources beyond that.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Jim,

My speculations was just based on the following:

The Lacey Act assists the states in enforcing their wildlife protection laws by making it a federal crime "to import, export, transport, sell, receive, acquire, or purchase in interstate or foreign commerce any fish or wildlife taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any law or regulation of any State...." 16 U.S.C. § 3372(a)(2)(A) (1981). [FN1]

It clearly states that it's considered a federal crime "to import, export, transport, sell, receive, acquire, or purchase in interstate or foreign commerce any fish or wildlife taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any law or regulation of any State...." But I agree with you that an instance such as this it might be overlooked and never reach to that extreme.

Regards.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Without getting into all the long-windedness of the legal system and its applications, let me just caution before we here in the BOI start suggesting that the purchase of corn morphs from a vendor in GA is a Federal Crime. Often, the best interpretation of a statute is to look at how it has been applied, and use that as a guide. While I have not looked at the GA statutes myself, they seem to indicate that any ownership or sale of any corns in GA is verbotten, without their permits anyway. We know that many states can be aggressive in enforcing such laws, particularly regarding the sale-for-profit of indeginous protected animals. Not that Jason would want to challenge the law, but there are states out there with declining corn populations, such as NJ, that recognize the difference between normal corns and morphs, and allow for ownership of morphs within the state. I do not know if GA has enforced their statutes against someone who had only morphs, but my guess is that they would steer their enforcement more towards normals, or use it where they were busting someone who had a laundry list of violations, throwing the proverbial "book" at the accused.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Jim,

I'm "suggesting" anything, these are just some facts for those willing to learn more about the topic, which I don't think should be taken lightly. Here's the whole text:

http://www.fws.gov/invasives/Index.LaceyAct.html

It's not that long, and it's worth reading particularly by those of us involved in interstate trade, both on the sending as well as the receiving end.

You mentioned as an example 200 corns, and you were right, the number matters, particulalry the dollar amount involved in the transaction ($350 plus).

Here's just one court case example involving fox pelts in interstate commerce:

http://www.animallaw.info/cases/causfd716f2d1091.htm

But we are getting out of topic now, and if you don't mind let's allow this thread get back in course.

Thanks.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Sorry should have read:

I'm not "suggesting" nothing, these are just some facts for those willing to learn more about the topic, which I don't think should be taken lightly. Here's the whole text:

Regards.

 

[Lizardeaux]

Good transaction with Jason

For the record, I purchased some snakes from Jason last month and they came packed great and in excellent condition. I think he is a good guy. He has said he is new and still learning. He agreed to make it right and everyone should now give him a break! Don't hang him unless it happens again!

 

[DAND]

I didn't get a chance to reply yesterday as I said I would due to customers at the show and my phone ringing off the hook for the better part of the evening yesterday after the show. I have another show today so this will be a short reply until I have the chance to do so later.

This is in reference to the Georgia issue being discussed. The snakes were shipped out of Tennessee.

 

[DAND]

Look, Im not going to rant and rave over this issue! I have told offered to buy the kings back even though randomly that was the only snake out of 126 that had mites.........weird huh? The kink....my mistake! Totally overlooked and didnt noticed which is why i offered to buy them back I have heard nothing of the response.

Ah, no. Not 1 out of 126. I told you the Boa had them and the Albino Cal King was covered as anyone can clearly see in the pic I posted. The others had a few visible mites but that may have been from the close proximity with the others and all are being treated as a precaution. As for the kink being overlooked, may I suggest a trip to an Optometrist. Hell, a blind person would have known it was kinked.

The shipper I gave him the place where i mailed them off they said ups didnt come by taht day and so he sent the dhl ON HIS OWN figuring he was doing me a favor! I even offered dave the number to the place to verify what had happened has he called no! I can give everyone the number they can check!

Either you mailed them off or the shipper did. Which is it? What did the shipper do with the styro lined box you brought to have them shipped in?

The packing he did himself I am truly sorry first time i have heard that from DAVE and he knows it.

Ah, that sort of answers the previous question I made. So you brought the snakes to the shipping place and he used the paper ream box with no styro. Am I understanding this correctly? Yet you said you were at lunch so you must have had the snakes with you at work just stacked on your desk (not boxed since you said the shipper did the packing). Seeing as you claimed you use this same place/person all the time, does he usually use styro lined boxes for shipping out your animals? Who provides these boxes?

The shipping date was off one day because of temps here.

Horse crap! That’s not what you PM’ed me. Here is the PM you sent me the day they were supposed to have been already shipped.

11-27-2006, 09:38 PM
Re: Group

shipping out tomorrow had one guy in front of you for all the other snakes i had for sale! Please send shipping addy to [email protected] as well!!

I told him he was complaining from jump!

And I told you, you had dropped the ball from the beginning. Which came first the dropping of the ball or the complaining?

I am sending the paperwork for the boa which i forgot (MY BAD) but he is getting it!!! if I was trying to rip him off I would not offer to ship the paperwork after the fact....right!

Offering is one thing. Doing it is another. Still waiting.

He was a miserable customer and I did everytthing I could all he does his complain but he took 3 days to send the money???

Cause and effect. Any one of the following would make any customer unhappy. Your piss poor shipping practice, deformed animal, parasites, no paperwork, not shipping on promised date, death of Amel Stripe, and now excuse on top of excuse on top of lies.

Now it’s 3 days huh? In the e-mail you sent to me (which is posted in the initial post) you said:

“I also didn't receive payment from you for2 days!” Well, here are the times and dates of two PM’s from you and the confirmation e-mail received for payment. Mind you, you weren’t going to be able to ship until Monday (but we all know that didn’t happen) and the 23rd was Thanksgiving.

11-22-2006, 11:13 PM
Re: Group

im sorry im meant 15.00 for paypal fees to receive the money without it it takes away from the priced being asked when are you sending money??

11-23-2006, 10:12 PM
Re: Group

If you are purchasing these snakes I need 435.00 sent to [email protected] via paypal. I have other offers so please sent asap! Thanks!

Confirmation e-mail of payment:
Friday, November 24, 2006 4:37 AM
Your payment for $435.00 USD to [email protected] has been sent.

Like I said to make it right I offered to buy back the kings......no response.....as far as shipping its out of my hands! But then again like I said its funny how only one snake in the same rack inclosure as 126 snakes had mites??????

Again, horse crap! Try farming instead of herps, you have plenty of fertilizer. The picture of the Albino Cal King covered in mites is right in front of you and you are going to make such a blatant lie.

In your e-mail (which is posted) you wrote:

“I would buy the kings back from you but you cant ship here now anyway because of the temps!”

What kind of response were you expecting from this “offer”?

Never had a complaint ever! I love this site and this community and dont want to be looked down upon so i am doing what I think is right in witness by all in offering to buy the kings back yet again and state that paperwork is being sent!

Your actions before and in the future will be controlling factors of how you are looked upon. The ball is in your court.

Im sorry truly but you all are hearing a complete one sided story as usual all it takes it a post from a moron to ruin someone!

And you continue to prove this by each and every post you make. Every excuse and lie just digs you deeper and deeper into the hole you yourself have made. You dropped the ball and instead of falling on it you commenced to try and pick it up on the run. It’s rather humorous to watch you run in the wrong direction kicking the ball as you go like this and make an ass out of yourself but it gets old fast.

on the shipping dave why didnt you tell everyone i gave you a UPS tracking number the place gave me when i was there??? This is like one big high school drama

The only drama is your continued childish crap of saying I made a mistake, but…. No buts, you screwed the pooch, period. Nobody made you do it, you did it all on your own. Grow up, be a man and fix your mistakes and quit trying to manipulate the situation by attempting to divert the attention or blame to someone the shipper, me or anyone else.

hey dave hope you like the lawsuit you got coming for displaying my full name and work information (that has nothing to do with reptiles) all over the internet

Then maybe you shouldn’t have used it when dealing with reptiles.

i offered a refund on the kings! I will offer one on the DOA striped (sorry) and I will offer a refund on the ghosts! All the complaints will be taken care of and i will ship him his paperwork! That should be clear right?

Ah no you didn’t. You have offered to buy back the Kings but shipping there is not an option now, but a refund I believe has not been offered.

But like i said about the shipping I didnt pack the box the mail box place did it!! I know to use certain materials!

Then why didn’t you provide the proper materials?

If this does not square away the situation i dont know what will. Like i said that is all complaints taken care of

Nothing has been taken care of. Words don’t constitute actions.

DAVE I AM SORRY! I AM NOT TRYIN TO RIP U ONE!! I HOPE THIS CAN SQUARE AWAY PROBLEMS!

Again, actions speak louder than words. You have said a lot yet done nothing.

that all i want is to get squared away I have never had a problem with anything!! Can someone get my name and work info and email addy off here please!! I love reptiles and this community deeply! But ALOT of this was misrespresented and unnecessary! I want to continue with trust and a good name as always because this is my passion! SOUND OK DAVE?

The only thing that has been misrepresented was the condition of the animals you sent me.

he didnt end up paying extra just the asking price and the reason he packed them was because i was at lunch and he ships all the time for me! Simple mistake!

And what was the shipping cost? Do you remember what you told me you paid to ship them? I do.

And treating for mites cost hardly anything!! Most pet stores will give you samples for treatment.

Seems you have first hand knowledge about something you claim your collection doesn’t have. Maybe that fine tooth comb you use is missing some teeth.

I want to make this right with DAVE, NO ONE else!

Your choice to not reply to my e-mails left me with no other choice but to bring it here to the BOI. Until I did you, your intentions were clear that I was SOL.

If dave can forgive me and be satisfied with what we can come to agreement with its cool but people try to make suggestions and take over what is going on when its between DAVE and I!

Again, your choice of handling this was the reason it is here now involving everyone else. I attempted to do this in private but you were not receptive until it was brought here.

I will not respond to anymore post on here about "your responsibilty" and such post because IM NOT A PRO AT THIS!

A PAIR A DENT LEE!

I am learning I make mistakes and I was wrong! Everyonr regardless of how MANY POST RESPONSES YOU HAVE has been in my position as a student in this business/hobby/lifestyle. I have done what I can do until we come up with something to resolve this so PLEASE dont bagger the situation!!!

Learning; yet to be seen.
Mistakes; yep, seen.
Wrong; yep again, seen.

I feel a refund for the kinked Florida King snake, the additional pay-pal charge, the dead Amel Stripe, the misrepresented Ghosts and some sort of compensation for the treatment of mites are in order. Of course the paperwork for the Boa to be provided also.