JENNIFER HARRISON GOOD GAL!!!

[ToshaMc]

Emailing him about his advice to her, or whatever it was, and talking about that IS personal. And not really your concern. ( do i personally care, in the end that you did? not really... its not my beef, im just here to point out what others might be thinking ) Fact of the matter is, it was not told TO you by him. Regardless if it was really true or not. I think that is the point others are trying to make.

It was not your place to email the vet to talk about advice that was not given to you.

Now, in my opinion, If you had emailed to ask SPECIFICALLY only about the virus, and jen never came up, save for maybe what inspiried you to ask in the first place "theres a girl that has said she is dealing with this through you, so i have a few questions about the virus in general, can you please elaborate on it for me" and he replied, and told you about the virus, that wouldnt be an issue ( in my eyes). But asking anything regarding if her collection MIGHT be clean, is personal. at least, i think so.


Now, if you had information that you could use to help prove your opinion that it is too soon to release those animals and prove they might still be sick, as i did with those IBD reports in Dan's thread ( and why i called a vet to ask what one would look for in the reports to know if a snake was positive) then go for that. Bringing the person up, and speaking about their collection, and the maybes involved in it though, is not right.

I am getting the impression that you think that I contacted him to discuss Jens issues or the virus - which I did not. I fully believed that the advice he supposedly gave was irresponsible and detrimental to our community - I exercised my right to tell him as much. I purposefully focused mainly on him and his supposed advice as to not make it personal with Jen - my criticisms were with the adviser so that is where I filed my complaint - you may have moral issue with it but he even makes a comment about it being a good idea to check with the someone before you make assumptions - anyway, I don't make apologies for it. Well except for to the Dr. for ranting on something he didn't do - but he understood and agreed.

 

[shrap]

Tosha,

I have no problem with people being a upset about her placing those ads recently. Or pointing out her inconsistencies. But I have to ask, did anyone actually try to talk to her about this before bringing it to the BOI? Or did they just immediately run here instead of trying to talk to her as a person and fellow herper? Yes, her animals may be carriers and I have said so from the beginning. That is why I am more than willing to send her a snake to help her test her collection.

As far as the vet thing.... NO, I would never call anyone's vet for information about someone or their animals. It is plain WRONG. YOU ARE PLAIN WRONG. My values and the ethics I live by dont change based on who the person is I am dealing with. So dont tell me what I would do, you obviously have no clue who I am as a person nor the path I walk.

 

[SPJ]

Tosha,

But I have to ask, did anyone actually try to talk to her about this before bringing it to the BOI?

Yes.
I sent her a PM first. So did others from what I understand.
When other information came to light on the BOI, regarding inconsistencies and the email from the vet, that's when I publicly commented in this thread.

 

[SPJ]

To further clarify why I was so upset, I was recently sent a snake with scale rot. I was informed it was perfectly healthy. It wasn't. Well after a vet visit, proper housing, and treatment, it is now almost gone.
That infuriated me.
To think that Jen might be selling carriers of the virus that caused havoc with her collection to others did not sit right with me at all.

 

[Serafim]

Again I have to ask. Why just Jen? Why not bring up the person she bought it from. Or the other breeders out there who have this virus in their collections why not ask them to stop selling their animals? I understand that her animals could be carriers and time will tell but there is atleast one other person out there who hs this in their collection. Do you think they are willing to stop selling their animals?

 

[Chameleon Company]

Steve,
I can understand your frustration, and that it may have impacted your reaction to Jen's actions. We all have been "caught me at a bad time". However, to delineate, your scale-rot example was one of buying an animal that was deliberately or recklessly misrepresented. A good argument can be made that whatever Jen's errors here, it was not deliberate misrepresentation, and she did have a professional opinion to support her decisions.
As for contacting the vet, I only wish the first response from the vet had been "Who are you ? Why should I waste my time talking to you? .. and "let's get your credit card processed, as my consultations are $10 for every two minutes, or $5 a sentence, whether you like what I have to say or not". That's the polite version Tosha.

 

[reagorfu]

Matthew,
Sorry for the smackdown, but if you want the legal argument, which is what you put forward, spend some money and talk to an attorney, and find all the true legal hurdles that need to be overcome here, as you truly are speaking out of your arse on this one. Saying that you are "not 100% sure" is true when one is only 1% sure (which is far more accurate in this instance), but also highly misleading to someone who reads here. Your post was nonsense. Criminal liability ? That is stupid. BTW, I am not 100% sure you are an idiot. See !

As for the other thread, on which you are also misinformed, the claim was that the animal had filarial worms. It did not, and the entity refused to post the vet reports that would have confirmed such. If I had any doubts about you being misinformed (I didn't), they would have been erased.

Ill-informed speculation can cause undue harm to others Matthew. Your words could have the effect of contributing to the belief that Jen's actions might even be criminal, and that is beyond absurd. In fact, IMMHO, it probably rates an ass-clown star. Now, go talk to an attorney, and watch the "almost 100%" shrink.

i was not speaking about Jen, i was speaking about the "big breeders" that every one is talking about that supposedly keep selling snakes even if they are sick. i just think those claims sound a bit conspiracy theory-ish, if that makes any sense. i may have not implied that heavily enough.

i know it didn't have worms, i called her a crazy lady. i read the whole thread about the time she started to make it very clear she was from another planet. so again, calm down.

i am not saying that i know as much as a lawyer, but i do know a bit from my wife. if you can prove that someone knowingly sent a diseased animal into your animal colony they would be held responsible. you may think that is crazy, well some things are crazy. in Oklahoma it is illegal to hunt a whale from your car, and if your a woman and you own 2 chickens and a cow you can ride the train for free. crazy laws. but i am pretty sure that knowingly infecting someones animal population with a deadly infectious disease is illegal in most states, not just here.

now maybe i didn't say it in the right words and you took what i was trying to say differently than i had intended. that has been happening a bunch to me lately. i am heavily medicated right now, so that could have a bunch to do with it. anyhow, hope this helps. and again, i was not at all talking about Jen who is great for coming forward with her tragedy

 

[Chameleon Company]

Matthew,
First off, whatever the cause for the meds, I hope all is well, or getting there.

The discussion about civil liabilities with IBD and other contagious reptile diseases has been raised before in the BOI, occasionally with input from real attorneys. The current disagreement between you and I on that has been laid out every time. Bottom line might be best put that there are too many "ifs" involved in expecting that the law, or civil litigation, will ever be part of any remedy here. It is 99% "caveat emptor", a phrase that dates back over 2000 years, and will still be a applicable 2000 years hence.

The second concern is forum dynamics. If it were just you and me talking, no problem. But its all about who reads this stuff here. I do not post much, but had an interest here, and your post needed clarification for the reader, IMMHO. Hope things improve.

 

[RJK890]

Quote Serafim:
Again I have to ask. Why just Jen? Why not bring up the person she bought it from. Or the other breeders out there who have this virus in their collections...

John,
I know you were asking this question to Steve, but since I am the one who brought it here to the BOI I will give you an answer. It is because I saw Jen advertising potential carriers of an unknown virus that nearly wiped out her own collection for sale here on fauna. I am not aware of the "other person," or "big breeders" that have this infection in their collection. I would certainly like to know who they are though. Why don't you bump their thread here on the BOI and make sure the community is aware of who they are.
This thread is about Jen Harrison, not them. What does who she got the virus from, and who else in the indusry has the same, or another virus have to do with the fact that Jen was releasing animals from her collection that may be carriers of a deadly disease?

Quote Serafim:
why not ask them to stop selling their animals? I understand that her animals could be carriers and time will tell but there is atleast one other person out there who hs this in their collection. Do you think they are willing to stop selling their animals?

They should not be selling animals either. However, that should have, and has nothing to do with Jen or this thread. Just because Wyatt sells animals that are carrying a virus, does not mean that when Jen purchases animals from him and is aware that her collection is infected she can continue selling animals as long as Wyatt, or any other "big breeders" do. That is a lame defense!

 

[SPJ]

Again I have to ask. Why just Jen? Why not bring up the person she bought it from.

It has been brought up.

Wyatt is the bad guy for bringing this all on.
Jen can be 100% honest about the history of the animal she lets go. Do you think that EVERYONE down the line who acquires that animal will be?
That is the problem.

No matter how careful Jen is, once an animal leaves her house, she has no control over it.

Again I have to ask. Why just Jen? Why not bring up the person she bought it from. Or the other breeders out there who have this virus in their collections why not ask them to stop selling their animals? I understand that her animals could be carriers and time will tell but there is atleast one other person out there who hs this in their collection. Do you think they are willing to stop selling their animals?

And that was also addressed.

If I see the same evidence from a big breeder or anyone else like I have with this instance, I will also voice my opinion. Until then, it is merely speculation that "others" are doing this.

 

[Serafim]

This thread is about Jen Harrison, not them. What does who she got the virus from, and who else in the indusry has the same, or another virus have to do with the fact that Jen was releasing animals from her collection that may be carriers of a deadly disease? They should not be selling animals either. However, that should have, and has nothing to do with Jen or this thread. Just because Wyatt sells animals that are carrying a virus, does not mean that when Jen purchases animals from him and is aware that her collection is infected she can continue selling animals as long as Wyatt, or any other "big breeders" do. That is a lame defense!

Lame defense.... Your missing the point it has been said in this thread that other breeders have this virus. Wyatt sold the snake it was in posession so that makes his snakes potential carriers. Why not bring that to light. Thats my point. She has a conscience she decided not to sell the animals when others voiced concern. See how far this virus spreads when others are so willing to overlook the issue or better yet deny the issue came from their collecton. jen was honest about having the virus some people are hiding it. And there is still no solid proof that the snakes are carrying a potentially collection killing virus so they my be perfectly healthy. I do not believe it was wise to not allow so little time to pass before selling her animals. I myself would he waited. Jen would not do something to harm someone elses collection That I am positive about.

 

[reagorfu]

shattered leg just got filled with a bunch of screw and a few plates. getting better, thanks.

i understand. my whole statement was based on proof of those "ifs". it would be very hard and the person would be very lucky, true.

i understand again.

i'll keep saying i think she is one of the good guys, i really don't see how anyone could see it any other way. so she made a mistake about a date, i do that all the time. if it were not for the date on the computer i would never know what day it was. lol. i don't know about some of the names people are throwing around, but i do know that someone put it so well when they said that this is not johnson. seriously, what more do you want her to do?

 

[ToshaMc]

Tosha,

As far as the vet thing.... NO, I would never call anyone's vet for information about someone or their animals. It is plain WRONG. YOU ARE PLAIN WRONG. My values and the ethics I live by dont change based on who the person is I am dealing with. So dont tell me what I would do, you obviously have no clue who I am as a person nor the path I walk.

Again - I did not call her vet and I never asked for information on her or her animals. The comments I made to the Doctor directly related to his advice to her and that I found his advice (all things considered) irresponsible - and I could not believe (again all things considered) that he could provide the absolutes that he supposedly did. Again - my email was directly aimed at the Dr. and his so called advice and had nothing to do with requesting information on Jen or her animals.

 

[shrap]

Again - I did not call her vet and I never asked for information on her or her animals. The comments I made to the Doctor directly related to his advice to her and that I found his advice (all things considered) irresponsible - and I could not believe (again all things considered) that he could provide the absolutes that he supposedly did. Again - my email was directly aimed at the Dr. and his so called advice and had nothing to do with requesting information on Jen or her animals.

Calling... emailing.... Are you kidding me? There aint a damn bit of difference.

You contacted Jen's vet about Jen and her situation. Period. It really dont matter that you didnt discuss every aspect of the situation, you still stuck your damn nose where it didnt belong. The fact that you can not even begin to see where this is wrong is very telling. End of story. I am done here.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Lame defense.... Your missing the point it has been said in this thread that other breeders have this virus. Wyatt sold the snake it was in posession so that makes his snakes potential carriers. Why not bring that to light.

... because it was already brought to light and isn't a new situation, as Jen's was?

With regards to these unknown multitudes of "big breeders" who apparantly everyone except me knows for an indisputeable fact has an identical disease causing agent present in their stock... Well... Name them and prove it and they'll get the same responses should they release (or indicate intentions along those lines) animals from quaranteen.

 

[kmurphy]

Again - I did not call her vet and I never asked for information on her or her animals. The comments I made to the Doctor directly related to his advice to her and that I found his advice (all things considered) irresponsible

Tosha, why not just post your email instead of explaining what it said all the time. I would be interested to see how someone would go about chastising one of the top reptile medicine researchers in the country.

 

[Cat_72]

Inaccuracies?

OK, since Tosha is such a huge fan of making sure all of Jen's information is accurate, and is so certain that any inconsistancies in Jen's story have been lies purely to make things look more positive for Jen, how about we do a little looking into Tosha's "inaccuracies"? I'm sure none of these were meant to mislead anyone, or to make Tosha's version of events more widely accepted, of course!

Without dwelling on all the previous lies – lets just recap the most recent and important information.

So, one would certainly be led to believe that all forthcoming information would be the absolute truth, correct?

Of the three Dr.s working with this – one is pretty much a sample taker the local herp vet

Hmmm...A “sample taker”? A lowly “local herp vet”?

Dr. Gordon specializes in reptiles -- has been his entire career (as has his partner at the clinic, Dr. Ericka Lukas). He is a lab professor at the UW School of Veterinary Medicine (where he graduated), an instructor at MATC for their vet technician course, and used to work as a Dept. of Homeland Security veterinarian.

Pretty impressive credentials a simple "sample taker". I'm sure he has no earthly idea what he's doing.

the “expert specialist” probably the foremost authority on OMPV – he - by the way told her some 6 months ago that she didn’t have OMPV.

From the email Dr. Jacobsen sent Jen "some 6 months ago":

There are several viral infections in snakes that overlap with paramyxovirus infection. Your outbreak may be caused by this virus or it may not.

I don’t read that as telling her that it could not be OMPV, I read it as saying it might or might not be. That was the only time he contacted her directly, so.....?

The OMPV specialist advised against using the avian vaccine

A statement like that would lead one to believe that he told her NOT to use the vaccine, wouldn't it? Yet in that same email 6 months ago, he says this:

I know that some in Europe have used the vaccine for pigeon paramyxovirus in snakes. I do not believe that there are any adequately controlled studies to show that it is efficacious.

Where did he advise her NOT to use it? He said he didn’t know if it would be effective or not. Big difference. Together with much research, 2 other very competant vets believed they had enough information to try it. When you have nothing to lose, why not give it a try? If it’s ineffective, you’re right where you started.

Yes there is another documented case of this virus – I believe he said it was in a collection in Atlanta.

Funny how her “forgetfulness” points away from Wyatt and Texas once again, isn’t it?

From Dr. Jacobsen’s email to Jen:

This appears to be the same virus we identified in lung of a ball python in an epizootic in Texas.

Funny how all of Jen's inaccuracies are said to be purposeful lies, but I'm sure Tosha didn't mean to mislead anyone with any of her, uh....inaccuracies.....

I call BS.

 

[Otter_23]

Come on Tosha your intentions have never been altruistic. You jumped all over Jen when she first posted in Wyatt's thread and acted as if there was no way it could come from Wyatt. Then you were proven wrong. What bugs me is you don't ask questions to learn and grow you ask questions then give your idea of the answer and you constantly assume things. One minute you are all over Jen saying she doesn't know what kind of virus it is and it could stay in her collection and later reinfect and then when you are questioned you say the virus kills and that if it was in your collection you would have known by now. So is it safe to assume then if no other snakes die in Jen's collection for the next 2 years they are safe? The virus does kill but that doesn't mean it kills every snake quickly. A boa can carry IBD for a long time before it dies without showing symptoms. I would like to know the exact date you recieved the snake from Wyatt. My biggest problem with you is you aren't really looking for answers you are looking to berate, belittle and attack. This is very obvious to anyone reading Wyatt's thread and this thread. I guess that and the fact you have shown questionable ethics and morals in the past. On a side note you really should not be adding baby food to your crested geckos diet.

 

[KelliH]

On a side note you really should not be adding baby food to your crested geckos diet.

I have to respond to this. I've kept and successfully bred Rhacodactylus geckos for more than ten years (got my first R. ciliatus in 1997) and I add baby food to their diet all the time, especially those that have not been raised on the powdered diets. There is absolutely nothing wrong with feeding them baby food, as long as they are also eating insects or some other food high in protein (ie one of the powdered diets). I don't think that people should feed their Rhacodactylus sp. a diet of strictly baby food but it does not hurt them to eat it.

 

[ToshaMc]

OK my first responses to Jen were when this was thought to be a simple RI - which in no way could have been passed to another snake to the point where it was bubbling at the mouth sick within 24 hours - especially if the carrier was in "perfect quarantine" as she said - my first set of questions to her where simple "have you been around other snakes outside of your collection" type questions looking for an alternative possibility about where the RI could have come from - her answers all turned out to be lies. She had sick snakes in her collection, hell the first snake that got sick came from a collection that a month earlier had another death in it - she'd been around other snake collections, she picked up a bunch of animals local, etc. etc. etc. all of which she repeatedly said she hadn't. And then the lies kept coming. Sorry if it doesn't make you happy to hear that good ol' Jen is a liar - I didn't make her change her stories repeatedly. I just wanted to get to the bottom of it.

Given Jens lack of credibility throughout - forgive me if I tend to believe what the Dr. said over what Jen posts that he says. And he tells me a far different story. This pretty much sums it up:

She really didn't listen to what I was trying to tell her
and she was determined to use the avian vaccine against my advice. I
doubt if she understood what I was saying. The impression I had was that
she had it all figured out and was moving forward with her plan.

Anyway - rally around Jen all you want - good for you - and call me the bad guy - I don't really care - I'm glad someone had the balls to call her out on her irresponsible behavior before those hatchlings were put into the community.

Thanks to some smart thinking people - the possible catastrophe has been averted - so all is good in the world.