Jodi Aherns ~ Poor Business ethics and poor shipping methods!! AVOID

[dwedeking]

If I ordered animals from you and say the carrier was late getting them here and they died, or the weather got hot or cold or whatever. Legally you would have to replace them or refund my money as I did not receive what I payed for and the carrier as you are aware will not insure live animals.

I don't believe this is accurate. Many companies (outside the reptile world) have terms of service that state any shipping issues (lateness, broken products etc) are between the receiver and the shipping company. If the shipping company won't insure the live arrival then the risk is on the reciever if you agreed to the terms of sale. Now, we guarantee live arrival, no if's and's or but's but that is our terms based on what we feel we need to do to compete. When you order products/animals from someone you agree to their terms and THE SELLER has the choice on whether they want to go beyond that to satisfy the customer.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

If I ordered animals from you and say the carrier was late getting them here and they died, or the weather got hot or cold or whatever. Legally you would have to replace them or refund my money as I did not receive what I payed for and the carrier as you are aware will not insure live animals.

Perhaps... But disclaimers on my terms will certainly help potential buyers understand the risks involved in buying/shipping live animals, as well as squelch the possibility of a BOI 'Bad Guy' thread if I keep up my end of the bargain. Fortunately, I have only had to give a refund once for a DOA in 10 years, and it was due to a 4-day UPS delay in Louisville for bad weather. Although according to my terms I was not 'technically' responsible, I felt that a refund was due as a good business practice.

 

[ravensgait]

Dan you might want to look into that, you also have to consider the laws in the state your shipping to. Don't want to argue with you but just because you post something on your site doesn't give it any legal standing. Randy

 

[ReptileZone1]

Raven might be right... It doesn't seem right that if you ship someone and they don't get what they pay for they are the ones out, makes more sense that the company would be the one on the short end of the stick. I know if I shipped out money and got nothing but dead animals I would want a refund and that should and may be how it works... Why would any company want to leave the consumer on the short end of the stick? Sound's a little harsh to nail the consumer when it wasn't his fault... Odd...

 

[Gecko_Den]

Dan you might want to look into that, you also have to consider the laws in the state your shipping to. Don't want to argue with you but just because you post something on your site doesn't give it any legal standing. Randy

Gotta disagree with you here Randy. When you agree to purchase something and send money for it, you and the seller have entered into a binding contract. If you agree to their shipping terms, that becomes part of the contract as well. If the shipping terms say that the seller is not responsible for carrier delays, and the death of the geckos is proven to be caused by said delays, then legally the seller has fulfilled his contractual obligations.

 

[Gecko_Den]

Raven might be right... It doesn't seem right that if you ship someone and they don't get what they pay for they are the ones out, makes more sense that the company would be the one on the short end of the stick. I know if I shipped out money and got nothing but dead animals I would want a refund and that should and may be how it works... Why would any company want to leave the consumer on the short end of the stick? Sound's a little harsh to nail the consumer when it wasn't his fault... Odd...

Jon, Legal doesn't always = FAIR.

I agree with you that it would be in the best interest of the seller, in order to preserve his reputation, and future sales to work with the buyer and come to a mutual agreement on compensation.

However, that wasn't the point, Randy stated that the sellers shipping terms
were not an issue, when in fact they are a very big issue from a purely legal standpoint.

 

[Wilomn]

I think that the only way to guarentee live arrival is by Delta Dash. Short of the buyer paying for that I know of no other shipper that will guarentee live arrival or insure reptiles to cover the loss if they don't survive the trip.

If it's in someone's TOS that they do NOT guarentee live delivery then it is pretty much on the buyer if they take the chance.

So, people, READ the TOS of the people you are planning to do business with and THEN get in writing, email if nothing else, that they are willing to make an exception for you if there is a problem in shipping, providing they do NOT guarentee live arrival, OR take your chances.

 

[MGReptiles]

Good Lord 14 pages... The animals were delayed in KY due to a thunderstorm.. That delay did nothing to th arrival time. They just simple got to the hub one hour later than normal. I figured they would be held for another day but UPS had managed to get them on the truck and on their way. They arrrived here at 647(I think) pm which in itself is absurd. What I normally do like Jodi said is to have the shipper have the package "held for pickup" and I can pick them up at the hub between 7 and 11am which cut the hot truck out of the problem all together.. I was not going to the terminal that day that he said he could ship so I had to have them shipped to my home.

I do believe that Jodi is entitled to a refund of the shipping because it would be considered a "service failure".

The only reason thatthis was brought here is because I could not get the problem resolved otherwise. I DID NOT WANT TO POST IT HERE!!!! Now it had to be and Jodi requested it to be a Poll, so be it.

Now I WAS offered other reptiles but I am sorry I am not taking any chances on anymore animals being harmed for any reason... The reason for a "bad guy" post is because it had to come to this.. Bad Business, YES I still think so!! Now if I get my refund I will not consider Jodi bad guy.

Now for the "does not care for his animals" statement, that was because there was not cool pack in the box.. In my mind adding a cool pack to the box is just common procedure when shipping any animal in warm to hot weather.

 

[ReptileZone1]

Agreed... He was the one that told you to come here after all, and this couldn't be an Inquiry, and definitely doesn't fit into the Good GUy category so what else should he have labeled his post? He tried to resolve this out of the BOI like he stated but he was brought into this by Jodi himself.. I don't see why you all are jumping on him for posting it as a bad guy post..

 

[dwedeking]

I think that the only way to guarentee live arrival is by Delta Dash.

There is no 100% guarantee on live arrival even if I drive it across town to you, something can always happen. What there is, is a TOS that states who in the agreement will accept responsibility and under what conditions if something should happen. As a consumer you must make your choice on a person's TOS before the purchase not after.

Not providing a guarantee on live arrival probably is not the way to promote your business, but that is a personal issue for the business owner to make (they are the ones that are deciding how much risk they wish to take on to do business online).

 

[groovygeckos]

In my mind adding a cool pack to the box is just common procedure when shipping any animal in warm to hot weather.

agreed!

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Good Lord 14 pages...

LOL, Matt you can select the number of posts per page on your user CP. I only have 2 pages showing on this thread.

 

[MGReptiles]

TOS

 

[A_Kendergirl]

Gotta disagree with you here Randy. When you agree to purchase something and send money for it, you and the seller have entered into a binding contract. If you agree to their shipping terms, that becomes part of the contract as well. If the shipping terms say that the seller is not responsible for carrier delays, and the death of the geckos is proven to be caused by said delays, then legally the seller has fulfilled his contractual obligations.

I'm not a lawyer, so there is a chance I am wrong...but from my understand of contract law, you are correct here Gecko_Den. If you have a clause in your terms about shipment, and the customer then purchases from you, then it is considered a legal contract and will hold up in court. There are more then one way to agree to a contract - you do not have to sign your name for it to be binding (though it does help). I do think to make it tight, you do need a statement similar to "By purchasing the animal/animals you are agreeing to the above mentioned terms."

Marcia, I think your terms are very well thought out. You are lucky to have only one issue arise in 10 years!

 

[Gecko_Den]

I'm not a lawyer, so there is a chance I am wrong...but from my understand of contract law, you are correct here Gecko_Den. If you have a clause in your terms about shipment, and the customer then purchases from you, then it is considered a legal contract and will hold up in court. There are more then one way to agree to a contract - you do not have to sign your name for it to be binding (though it does help). I do think to make it tight, you do need a statement similar to "By purchasing the animal/animals you are agreeing to the above mentioned terms."

Marcia, I think your terms are very well thought out. You are lucky to have only one issue arise in 10 years!

You don't need to sign anything for it to be binding, a verbal agreement and consideration, which in my earlier example would be payment, are all that's needed to be binding. Of course with a signed agreement or even e-mails between the two parties stating an agreement, the burden of proof is less difficult.

 

[Bill_Leverton]

Dan you might want to look into that, you also have to consider the laws in the state your shipping to. Don't want to argue with you but just because you post something on your site doesn't give it any legal standing. Randy

Ok first let me say good deal Jodi & Matt Y'all worked it out Good Good....IMHO Its like splitting hairs I have something similar on my site But it comes down to morally or legal me I sorta lean towards the moral side 9 out of 10 times anyway......

 

[ravensgait]

It might be an idea for you to check the law so you'll know just how binding your TOS is or isn't.

Dan a contract??? what contract would that be ? As a matter of fact you could write whatever you like on paper IE a contract and I could sign it and yet if it does not conform to the laws of the states involved it is worth nothing when a dispute arises ! plain and simple. Just because someone buys from you whether they see or not your TOS wouldn't matter if the TOS isn't legal. Opinion doesn't matter check the laws of your state and the buyers state, and by the way the laws in the buyers state tend to hold sway. Hey I don't make the laws and sorry you don't agree but whether you do or not doesn't matter. The law is what matters if and when there is a dispute so write whatever you want for a TOS but it will only protect you if it is legal! very plain very simple.

Sam where was it I said this??

However, that wasn't the point, Randy stated that the sellers shipping terms
were not an issue, when in fact they are a very big issue from a purely legal standpoint.

Don't remember saying anything like that nor can I find a reply by me at all like this in this thread???

The thing is and jeez check the law on this and you'll Know!! Is that if the TOS isn't legally binding IE doesn't conform to LAW it isn't worth anything. Now parts of a TOS can be legal and others not which doesn't make the whole thing non binding only the parts that do not conform to the law.

As the say ignorance of the law is no excuse.
Randy

 

[Jim O]

Actually this is an area of law that is likely not well defined in statute (shipping of reptiles via common carrier is hardly high on the list of things that lawmakers really worry about) and would more likely be subject to review in civil court and as such be subject to case law, that is precedent. So if someone accepts terms of service that state that the buyer accepts all risk once the animals leave the hands of the seller and in effect says "ship the reptile via UPS at my sole risk" I would doubt that many judges would allow a lawsuit to proceed. There are certain legal rights one cannot sign away. For instance I cannot agree to allow you to kill me for sport and then expect you not to be prosecuted because that is a felony and I cannot give you the legal right to commit a felony. But if I buy an item from you and agree to allow you to act as my shipping agent and accept the risk for that, then that is legal for me to do. Sorry Randy, but show me law to the contrary. Law which is specific to reptiles shipped by common carrier and which states I cannot waive my "right" to live delivery. Because if I have that "right" and I decide not to answer the doorbell when UPS arrives and they are re-delivered dead the next morning after a day in the truck am I still entitled to a full refund? After all, by your definition, they are not my responsibility until delivered.

There is a legal concept of "shared negligence". That may not be the exact name for it but in effect there is the idea that each party in a dispute shares some of the "blame" for the bad outcome. In this case Jodi could have added a cool pack and made sure Matt was in an area that actually got 10:30AM delivery. And Matt could have informed Jodi that it was a bad idea to ship UPS overnight when he could not get to the terminal himself as the animals *might* be on the truck all day as they were.

Jodi is taking 100% of the loss on this deal, including having his reputation hammered here, some of it clearly by people with an axe to grind. Whoever reads this should be aware of that fact. Honestly, I still believe that if these animals had been in Matt's hands by 10:30AM they would be alive. Jodi's biggest mistake was asking for a vote here on the BOI. Maybe he might have polled a few of his fellow leo breeders and made his own decision. Oh well. C'est la vie.

 

[ReptileZone1]

Because if I have that "right" and I decide not to answer the doorbell when UPS arrives and they are re-delivered dead the next morning after a day in the truck am I still entitled to a full refund? After all, by your definition, they are not my responsibility until delivered.

 

[ReptileZone1]

I meant to use in quote forum... Well I am not really on either side of the "DOA Debate" I thought I would point out something.. Jim when you said that "I can just ignore the door bell and have the UPS guy redeliver the next morning DOA for a full refund" That could happen, but why would someone want there money back and no animals? It can go both ways. The shipper could decide to ship dead animals and take off with the buyers money.. So it can go either way.. It is not just the seller that is taking the risk...