Jungle Habitats: Alan Hall, the rest of the story

[NeoScales]

Could be, not likely...

Sorry Randy, but you are mistaken

I’m not infallible; all I can do is look at the data presented…

Jen’s post came from this IP and server, located in North Carolina:

• 24.158.56.180 cpe-24-158-56-180.hky.nc.charter.com

Alan Hall made posts under this identical IP and server location:

• 24.158.56.180 cpe-24-158-56-180.hky.nc.charter.com

According to Alan’s website
• Alan resides in Morganton, North Carolina
• He uses Charter.net as an ISP

How can someone in Wisconsin make a post from a server located in NC Al? Maybe Jen in WI purchased cages and loves them. But it’s very unlikely she made this post herself.

but Jen is a different person here on Fauna.

I'm sure she's real and a different person on Fauna Al...but she didn't make the post I'm refering to on the BCF, Alan's computer did. Which was the only thing I've addressed here.

-Randy May

 

[NEWReptiles]

Nice partial quotes Randy, but like I said.....

Sorry Randy, but you are mistaken. Jen is a WI resident here by me, It may have been Alan on BC forums, but Jen is a different person here on Fauna.

THERE IS A JENN HERE ON FAUNA AND I KNOW HER.

How can someone in Wisconsin make a post from a server located in NC Al?

Again, it may have been Alan on BC forums and nowhere did I say it was Jenn that posted on the BC forums...........

 

[Gromph Baenre]

Jen or Jungle Habitats

Mr. May,
I have a few questions and comments as it pertains to this particular thread.

quote

…the post seemed odd to me, and behold the IP's are the same and a trace indicated the same server was used for both “Jen” and “Jhabitats”.

end quote

What did you find odd about the post other than someone offered a differing opinion than the majority of other users?

Also, you then proclaim on the other forum(BC Forums) that the customer was shilling for jungle habitats. How is that the customer(Jen) can't shill for Jungle Habitats, but other users including your self can "shill" for AP?

Furthermore, did the thought ever cross your mind, that perhaps the customer Jen could have been visiting Mr. Hall's facilities, and made a post from his computer? Far fetched hypothesis on my part, you bet. I just find it equally odd that you would start your post with "not trying to add fuel", and then proceed to pour out verbal gasoline. What a tangled web we weave when at first we plot to deceive.

Best regards,

Carson Grindstaff

 

[NeoScales]

I'm almost speechless...

nowhere did I say it was Jenn that posted on the BC forums...........

No you didn't Al, so what was your original point anyway? I'm sure there's a "Jen" on Kingsnake.com, RottenTomatoes.com and MovieCritics.com too, but I can't see how that's applicable in this post either. So she’s real and on a different forum from the one I posted about. What relevant issue does your comment address then?

I’m not even certain you comprehended what I originally posted. What relevance does “Jen” on Fauna have to Alan posting under an alias on the BCF? Where am I wrong (as you claim) when the only thing I’ve addressed is the fact that a “Jen” posted a testimonial on the BCF about Alan’s cages under Alan’s IP?

Honestly…you seem either lost or blindly argumentative at this point. I’ve made the issue as simple as possible to understand (with bullets and everything).

THERE IS A JENN HERE ON FAUNA AND I KNOW HER

Again that's good to hear...I'm certain there are a lot of "Jens" around. But unless they posted under Alan's IP on the BCF, what's your point?

-Randy May

 

[DaveyFig]

Except for possibly a typo in one of the Yahoo IDs, it looks like the same Jen to me. She is also a user on the ACC forums, and is definately not Alan. Mr. May, is it possibe for you to track an IP for a member here on Fauna?

BC Forum Profile:
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jen Member Since: 10/22/2004

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Email Address: [email protected]
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User Name: jen
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Profile For jenn Search for all posts by this user.

Date Registered: 02-21-2004
Status: down the 1/4mile before U
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Total Posts: 168 (0.68 posts per day)
Last Post: 10-18-2004 09:16 PM
Davey Fig, need some info...
Contact jenn: Click here to email jenn
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Birthday February 1, 1975
Where did you hear about FaunaClassifieds? from scales
Full Name jennifer dahl
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Biography i race a 67 camaro durning the summer. i have 1 savannah monitor, 2 cats, 1 beta fish
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It looks to me like someone made a good impression on a new member to the BC forums after her first post. She said one nice thing, got slammed, and now has a nice little qoute about shilling on her post. How many posts has she made since then? How much better would that forum be if good members like Jenn were not attacked after one post ?
I could be wrong, though, and it COULD be Alan trying very hard to apear to be someone else,even going so far as to copy a profile, but why?
Has anyone emailed Jen to see if it was her that posted?

 

[NeoScales]

What did you find odd about the post other than someone offered a differing opinion than the majority of other users?

It was odd and drew attention because the person had no profile information and was their first post. It was odd and drew attention because the content dealt with someone who was banned from the site. It was odd and drew attention because I felt it deserved it after moderating that forum everyday for nearly 3 years and a simple IP comparison told me I was correct.

How is that the customer(Jen) can't shill for Jungle Habitats, but other users including your self can "shill" for AP

First, I recommend AP cages because I own them, and I believe the company holds the benefit of the entire reptile community as their long term goals – I make no apologies for that. Secondly, people (including other moderators) can and do recommend other cage manufactures all the time. No one has ever been stifled or disciplined for doing so. Lately the issue wasn’t a different cage company Carson; the issue was who was actually posting the message. So let’s not couch it as something different.

What a tangled web we weave when at first we plot to deceive.

Minimally poetic and even less on point Carson. The only deception perpetrated here was the one by Alan Hall. While you may not like the fact he’s was exposed, it is the only relevant issue on the table. I’ve exchanged emails with Alan and I have no vendetta against him. If the person making the original post hadn’t been under his own IP, we wouldn’t be communicating right now - his choice.

that perhaps the customer Jen could have been visiting Mr. Hall's facilities,

You're right, it's farfetched. I doubt people cross the country often to see Alan's router. However, I’ll happily apologize when some reasonable proof is provided that in fact, "Jen" was in NC on Alan’s computer and felt the need to join the BCF and make one post.

Muddy the waters all you like…there isn’t enough silt to cover up the numbers in this situation.

-Randy May

 

[NeoScales]

She said one nice thing, got slammed,

No...Alan got "slammed" for posting under a different name, not “Jen”. If the real "Jen" made the post, then I'll make things right. But again, there’s no question the post was from Alan’s computer. While I don’t know who pushed the keys, I know who’s responsible for the IP.

Understand this - I don’t have the free time to answer to every half-cocked theory about how someone in WI posted raves about Cheapcages from Alan’s computer. If someone has some actual evidence or can support where the assumption is wrong, then I’ll make the time to participate where appropriate.

-Randy May

 

[DaveyFig]

I am talking to Jenn now on Yahoo IM, I will see if she will post here. She can probably shed some light.

 

[jenn]

Ok, lets get somethings here straight.
I have only been to Bob's site once. I have NEVER, and i mean NEVER posted there. If i was to post about my cages from Alan i would have shown pictures just like i do here and anywhere i post.
2. I live on the MN/WI border! And you guys already have caught the IP addresses don't match.

I'm not sure if it was Alan who did it or not. I will talk to him yet tonight and find out. I will post what i find out.

 

[DaveyFig]

Thanks a million for clearing things up Jenn.

 

[Gromph Baenre]

Randy,
Thank you for your prompt reply. However, you bring up some points that I would like to expand upon.

quote

First, I recommend AP cages because I own them, and I believe the company holds the benefit of the entire reptile community as their long term goals – I make no apologies for that. Secondly, people (including other moderators) can and do recommend other cage manufactures all the time. No one has ever been stifled or disciplined for doing so.

end quote

Care to venture a reply as to how what you stated above was any different than what Jen professed over on the BC Forum. You have expressed your opinion on AP cages, Jen expressed her opinion on Jungle Habitats cages, and by doing so, it incurred your scrutiny, forcing you to apply your moderation powers to trace an IP, thereby giving you the matched IP addresses. What would have been the harm in merely emailing Jen(its included in her profile over on the BC Forums) and discreetly inquiring

quote

Minimally poetic and even less on point Carson. The only deception perpetrated here was the one by Alan Hall.

end quote

Au contraire, my reference to deception was to your given disclaimer. Starting a message with "not to add fuel to the fire" was what I was making reference to in the use of that cliche.

quote

While you may not like the fact he’s was exposed, it is the only relevant issue on the table.

end quote

I have no like or dislike for the fact that you feel you have exposed Alan for anything. His infractions that you brought here occurred on a website that you moderate, why not leave it there.
Alan was caught with his hand in the cookie jar on the 25th. Right behind the webslaves post, yours follows. Funny this incident occured on the website you moderate on the 22nd. Can you see where someone might construe your posting as adding fuel to a fire?

quote

You're right, it's farfetched. I doubt people cross the country often to see Alan's router. However, I’ll happily apologize when some reasonable proof is provided that in fact, "Jen" was in NC on Alan’s computer and felt the need to join the BCF and make one post.

end quote

You know people cross the country to attend reptile shows. Who is to say that people don't cross the country to visit a friend who owns a business that they purchased cages from. Thats not too far fetched in my estimation.

BTW, its Charter Cable companies router, not Alan's. You performed the ip trace, I can't argue with your conclusions as to who posted from where. I am not attempting to muddy any water, Im just trying to offer a different viewpoint from yours that includes other scenarios of what could have happened. But in the end only you and possibly Alan know the whole truth of the matter. Unfortunately, by his own actions, he is unable to convey his side.

Best regards,

Carson Grindstaff

 

[NeoScales]

Thanks for your time...

I have NEVER, and i mean NEVER posted there

As you may already know, someone using Alan's IP number created the user name "Jen" on the BCF and copied your/similar email to the profile [email protected]. It can be viewed here...

http://www.bobclark.com/bcforums/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=3161

...I'm not "out to get" Alan, but something is very wrong here and it has merit. It's all the speculation that has gotten out of hand. Thank you again for clearing most of it up.

I could be wrong, though, and it COULD be Alan trying very hard to apear to be someone else,even going so far as to copy a profile, but why?

Yes Dave, it appears as though you could be wrong. As for why it was done, your guess is as good as mine...

-Randy May

 

[jenn]

You know i have had some time to think about this.....Mr.May why did you check the IP? I'm pissed that someone (maybe Alan) would use my stuff to post for me. But i feel really angry at the fact that if it was me posting that on the BC that i would have gotten this same kind of treatment. You can't even deny that because of the steps you have already taken. BUT, why couldn't you have emailed me about this first? You had to bring it out into the public. Which is your right, but what about me? Did you stop and think if this was made up how this is going to effect the "real" Jen's thoughts on the BC? I would have to say NO! So please do me a favor and get rid of my profile and whatever else on the BC.
Again i would like to thank you for your "kindness" that you showed!

 

[NeoScales]

I am not attempting to muddy any water, Im just trying to offer a different viewpoint from yours that includes other scenarios of what could have happened

Well Carson all of the other issues aside, we now know what didn't happen. Jen didn't post anything and yet someone has created a profile using her information and posted under her name - using Alan's IP.

Can you see where someone might construe your posting as adding fuel to a fire?

Yes, of course. The fact was, I had no intention posting the information here. But then the thread about Alan appeared on the front page (due to the Webslaves comment). Based on what I read - I posted what I felt was information that spoke to the some level of behavior already in that thread. I don’t hate Alan, I don’t want him ruined, and in fact I’ve rarely comment one way or another about him. But I’m not obligated to suppress anything for his behalf.

The reader can take it or leave it - that's what I mean by "fuel to the fire". The intent wasn’t to hurt Alan per se, only to share the incident as it happened, where appropriate.


-Randy May

 

[NeoScales]

But i feel really angry at the fact that if it was me posting that on the BC that i would have gotten this same kind of treatment.

Unless you had Alan's IP, that would not be the case. Your assertion is sometihng like

"If a criminal was using an assumed name and then found out to actually be someone wanted. Then the real person would be arrested too?"

No, of course not. Also I've banned 2 other names by Alan Hall on the BCF...this was the third.

As to why I checked the IP's, I've coved that a few pages back.

BUT, why couldn't you have emailed me about this first?

Because I knew Alan Hall's IP wrote the post. Why email someone who I knew did not write the post. You could have been a fake name, as much as a real one at that point.

Did you stop and think if this was made up how this is going to effect the "real" Jen's

Since I've made it clear and even clearer yet that my comments were -always- directed to Alan Hall...yes.

Again i would like to thank you for your "kindness" that you showed!

I'm sorry that you feel caught in the middle, but I didn't put you there. My comments here have always contained an open apology to the “real” Jen if those were her words. But I won’t apologize for doing my job or accept responsibility for what Alan did in your name.

-Randy May

 

[jenn]

Mr. May,
Can you see where i'm comming from? You checked the IP for what reason? You still have not answered that question.
The facts are i do have two of his cages and a third one on the way. I love them and wouldn't trade them for the world. And i would be more than happy to post that on your site under my "real" info. and my own free will.
I'm not defending his actions. Please do not think that i am. I am not asking for you to apologize (sp?) for his actions either. I'm just wondering why did you even check the IP? Can you please answer that?

 

[SWAG]

I agree, he should answer it.

But I already had an answer the second the first person asked why he checked the IPs...and I think that answer is kind of obvious--he had already caught Alan creating multiple users, so ANY post about Alan was immediately suspect, especially a user who created an account JUST to post positive feedback. I can see why Alan ripped off your acct. info though--you ARE a satisfied customer. But I think we can all agree that it isn't his place to impersonate you to broadcast that. I don't think anyone was casting aspersions on your character, and for the most part any "aspersions" cast on Alan Hall are TRUE.

 

[jenn]

I agree with what your saying. I just want Mr. May to answer it. Even if it is pretty obvious why.

 

[NeoScales]

Happily Done...

Can you see where i'm comming from?

While I have empathy with you to some degree, I think I’ve been very clear who was being addressed in my posts – Alan Hall.

You checked the IP for what reason?

Because of the recent number of trolls and “problem people” on the forum, we routinely check new members IP addresses against banned lists. We are unable to ban IP and IP classes (as is done here on Fauna) without a lot of work. So it’s my job to know who is on our forum. We keep very tight control over potential trouble on the BCF, checking this IP address was part of that control measure. While that may not be a popular or sinister enough answer, it is reality.

so ANY post about Alan was immediately suspect

Any post by a new member about a banned member will naturally get my attention. How can I be doing my job (however unpopular) is I glossed over that fact? If someone wants to rave about Alan’s cages, have at it…just not Alan using an assumed identity.

I don't think anyone was casting aspersions on your character,

Of course not...I've said so many times.

and for the most part any "aspersions" cast on Alan Hall are TRUE.

This is it in a nut shell...
• Alan stole the on-line identity of a customer and made posts under their name in a misguided effort to support his business.

While I can appreciate that Jen still support Alan (not the act necessarily), that’s really putting the horse before the carriage. In the course of doing my job I discovered his ruse and that’s unpopular with some people who like Alan or have business connections to him. But you really should take that up with him. No one made his do it and I won’t apologize for exposing it. There isn’t a single person on this thread that thinks the real Jen did anything wrong – so I must have made that clear during the course of my posts.

You have the facts, whether you care or not is up to you. I’m not on an Alan witch-hunt and I’m quite happy to let this issue lie right here for the readers to digest.

-Randy May

 

[jenn]

I'm not defending his actions. Please do not think that i am. I am not asking for you to apologize (sp?) for his actions either.

As i said before im not asking for you to apologize. And i thank you for answering my question. And as i said before i do love my cages. But that does not make what he did right. And i have already taken this up with Alan.




Thank you for your time. I have no ill feelings toward you or the Bc site. You must understand that i was upset....ok pissed off at the whole thing.


Davey on a side note.... Thank you for being the one who brought this to my attention. At lest someone was willing to see what i would have to say about all of this.