"Just plain awful..." when someone else is doing it.

[bpc]

I am starting this thread in this area because of the Shell Shop thread being closed on the BOI. I hope it's ok for us to discuss labeling someone as a "bad guy" because of how they might choose to ship an animal over here. I guess it wasn't ok over there, even though that's what the thread was about.

The practice or suggestion of shipping any live animal second or third day is substandard, ridiculous and borderline criminal. Anyone that would subject any animal to a 2-3 day trip in a box on purpose is just plain awful.

Rob, you posted that. Yet, you buy animals which are imported from other countries. Because you (and many others) choose to do that, those animals are subjected to 2,3,4,...days in a box. There is nothing different about those boxes vs. the ones used here. Unless we consider how overpacked those boxes are (you and I have both seen it). Again man, I know you and like you, but Shell Shop (whom I've never ever heard of) now has a horrible looking thread with thier name on it, because you don't like the way they advertised something. Not because they actually did anything wrong or ripped anybody off. But because you (someone who does carry a lot of weigh around here), didn't like thier ad.

I could say the same type thing about you or any other importer quite easily. BEWARE ROB... HE EXPLOITS NATURE FOR A LIVING. Truth is, you do. But you do it in a way which is very acceptable. And I would say that most of the animals you bring in do quite well. But others would/could say that those animals should be left in the wild.

Shipping cuban tree frogs w/ 2-3 service is no worse than the trip a farm raised ball makes over from Africa. It's probably a less stressful trip for those frogs to make than the trip all those chameleons you import make from thier native country. And personally I think it was wrong to bash these guys when you haven't even actually ordered a frog to see if it would make it or not. Just my opinion.

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Brian,

To start out so you and others are aware. I.A.T.A. stands for International Air Transport Authority. They are the governing body on what can be and how everything can be shipped whether it is shipped via The airlines or Via private shipping companies.

So you are aware animals that are exported from other countries are transported in temperature controlled pressurized compartments, and even if there is a layover are kept in temp controlled areas of the Hangers. A shipment that is sent with a 2-3 day service is shipped in a general cargo area on the plane, with no temperature control nor is it pressurized. The temperatures in these cargo areas are known to get down to freezing on many occasions. These type of compartments would not and do not work for shipping anything alive for any reason.
I started that thread not because I did not like the ad but because of their response when I asked them about the shipping method for the frogs. Yes they are Cuban Tree frogs, and I have about 100 living around my house and presently have about 800 tadpoles from them but that still does not make them less of a life does it?

In the other thread you said that fastest method would not be UPS or others, well UPS is approved by I.A.T.A. to ship reptiles because of the way they handle the packages that contain live animals, and that they have pressurized and temperature controlled compartments for the packages. I am governed by the I.A.T.A. and my packages when I export MUST meet their requirements. I also pack all my other shipments to meet the standards as well as my animals are more valuable than just the selling amount and I don't take chance with my licenses.
I know you have seen the crates that have come in from other countries and have noticed that they might not appear to be the best looking containers they meet minimum requirements for safety as well as the number of animals in each compartment. Now I agree that some animals are exported in a fashion that I don't believe is correct but IATA and USFW have all agreed that they are acceptable. I have seen USFW with the backing of IATA pursue exporters with international charges for improper packing methods and containers. Anyone that cares about the animals with pack the animals to arrive and do everything in their power to ensure they arrive alive in the proper way.

On the shipping of Reptile through UPS their policy states that they will ship reptiles (no snakes) with an approved account and only if the shipper has a letter on file stating that they absolve UPS of any responsibility if something happens to the animals in transit. They are still governed to act accordingly and treat the shipments correctly otherwise they can lose their license to ship anything. The reason their policy states no snakes if because of the liability if someone where to ship Venomous Snakes through them. My local office and district supervisor all know exactly what I ship and as a matter of fact just about every shipment I drop off they ask what it is and if it is something different this time. Also my packages are all marked as per the contents (i.e. Live harmless Reptiles) and with the species name on the box to prevent possible violations of the Lacey Act. Yes anyone can pack a box with animals and ship it off to whomever but the ones that care about the animals well being are the ones that I feel are good shippers.

Also I agree that there are alot of people out there that feel my importation of animals is exploiting Wildlife and should be stopped. I don't get upset at them as I can see their point of view and side of the story. I also know that without importation of animals the bloodlines in the US and other countries would be next to nothing in a short while with all the inbreeding. Hell take Panther Chameleons for example, just in the last 2 years since Madagascar has not been exporting like they normally do the amount of inbreeding that takes place is astronomical. There are so many breeders out there that only care about making the sale and not keeping the lineage stable for a long future of the species in captivity. If exports of Reptiles and other animals to the US and other countries were to stop in a matter of a few years there would be most likely a small amount of animals still alive because of the lack of genetic diversity and over abundance of inbreeding.

 

[bpc]

Rob, USPS which I would imagine would be the cheapest 2-3 service available does allow live animals to be shipped (not snakes). They do have restrictions stating temps must be below such and such at both drop off and destination points. I would imagine that if they knowingly ship animals they would do so in pressurized cabins. So, if that is the case, we're back to square one... quicker trip is available but not for $11.95.

Did you ask if they would ship overnight if you payed extra for that service?

They may have been able to tell where you were calling from (caller ID) and realized in was a simple across the state trip, so no airplane needed.

As far as how well cared for imported animals are, even if the imported animals are temp controlled while in the care of the airplane crew, we've both seen what happens once they get to thier destination.

I'm also curious, you say you are "governed" by IATA. How much "governing" is actually taking place. I would think having been doing this for almost 11 years if they were doing such a huge amount of governing I might have heard of them before. Granted, I do almost no shipping. But I do a fair amount of receiving. And even when I've had packages that were so badly damaged as to have threatened the animals inside, no one ever refered me to IATA. Turtles under 4" are governed by USDA, yet you'd be hard pressed to find a pet store not selling them.

Are cuban a lesser form of life? No, I suppose not, karmically speaking. But, I would be willing to bet that if Shell Shop were shipping albino ball pythons it wouldn't be 2-3 day service. So speaking from a strictly business sense, yes cubans (tree frogs) are a lesser form of life. Think about it, how many frog is he going to sell if he lists them at $49.95 shipped?

I think the biggest problem I have with this is that you are assuming the frogs will be harmed. I disagree, as I stated before, I think you could box these frogs in such a way that most would survive being mailed. These aren't chameleons, heck they aren't even red-eyed tree frogs, they cubans. Cubans will be the one animal left behind to eat the cockroaches that survive the nuclear war. LOL

One other thing, did you wait for/get a reply after you sent your email telling them what you thought of thier shipping methods? Based on the time stamp on his email (10:22p.m. 7/13/03) and then your admission that you wrote back. Thats either pretty late at night or the next day when he receives that email (assuming he checks it everyday, which many people don't). You then come here to post on that very day. Doesn't give him much of a chance to respond does it?

 

[bpc]

If I figured this right (which is a big IF) you made that post about an hour after you received his reply as to the shipping method. And you made that post at around 11:30 at night his/your/our time. Are these calculations correct? If so, you gave him no chance to respond.

Have you even made him aware of this thread?

This is almost as bad as someone who gets one of your chameleons, emails and says there's some problem with it, then comes on here and posts a "bad guy" claim before you've even read the email.

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Brian,

One thing amphibians are one of the hardest animals to ship successfully. That is why NO wholesaler will guarantee live arrival on them and most resellers won't either. I have shipped many different types of Amphibians with success but know that even if you were to ship them in a deli cup with moist paper towels that the paper towel will dry up and the animal will perish. Maybe someone might get lucky and the animal is still alive after the towels have dried up but I would bet that most would not.
As far as USPS shipping live animals they will ship them but their 2-3 days service is not one that they will ship reptiles via. Only Express mail is approved for animals. Their 2-3 day service is once again shipped in a non pressurized compartment and is not temperature controlled. USPS use to ship their packages through the airlines but now all their packages are shipped on Fed-Ex lanes and Fed-Ex will not allow them to ship live animals at all. So USPS has to arrange an airline to carry the package for express packages. The 2-3 day service packages are shipped in a totally different fashion. They are not shipped on the first available flight but shipped and are mixed in with the regular packages in the regular compartment.
On the I.A.T.A. governing us, They govern the Air shipping of animals. Mainly you have never dealt with them because you stated you don't ship. Just because you have not had to deal with their regulations personally does not mean they are not a governing body. They govern the regulations for air shipping of everything. You more than likely have never dealt with USFW either because you don't ship but they also govern the intrastate shipments of endangered protected species. If you were to ship some of your baby Albino Burmese pythons across state lines you are subject to USFW regulations as they are a CITES app II animal. I personally have had more dealing with USFW and the I.A.T.A. regulations because I import and export and ship internationally.
Also I have yet to this day received a response back from the person in question after my e-mail to them. Also I see that they have let the ad expire and have not renewed it which is a good thing but it still does not excuse the idea of them shipping in that method. It is no excuse if a person has never shipped before or has shipped very little. Anyone that desires to ship reptiles or any other animal needs to do the research first to find out exactly how and what they need to do to give the animal the best chance of surviving the trip.
Another thing, shipping through USPS express overnight in a small packages is only about $16.95 and up. Anyone can ship the same frogs for about $25-$30 for a pair including shipping.

 

[sschind]

Are cuban a lesser form of life? No, I suppose not, karmically speaking. But, I would be willing to bet that if Shell Shop were shipping albino ball pythons it wouldn't be 2-3 day service. So speaking from a strictly business sense, yes cubans (tree frogs) are a lesser form of life. Think about it, how many frog is he going to sell if he lists them at $49.95 shipped?

I find it pretty disturbing when people determine the amount of care an animal receives based on its monetary value. If a person can not offer the same type of care for all their animals because it is not financially profitable, they shouldn't be caring for or selling those animals.

It's no different than me wanting fire salamanders but realizing I can't have them because I couldn't possibly keep them at the appropriate temps without a financial burden that I am not willing or able to incur at this time. You know what though, there are cheaper salamanders out there that need the same requirments of the fires, would it be OK for me to keep them in substandard conditions. After all, from a business sense they are lesser life forms.

It's time for summer fairs and festivals and I here it all the time. "who cares, they are only goldfish" I wonder how those people would react if I replied " Yeah, and why should I care, its your kid who will be traumatized when it dies, not mine"

One thing amphibians are one of the hardest animals to ship successfully. That is why NO wholesaler will guarantee live arrival on them and most resellers won't either.

Rob, I have received frogs from several people who do guarantee live arrival. Some of them were breeders which makes a difference, but some of them were wholesalers. I buy most of my stuff from breeders though so I don't have a lot of wholesale experience to speak from, I just wanted to say that there are some who do guarantee live arrival of amphibs.

Steve Schindler

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Steve,

Yes there are some breeders that guarantee live arrival on Amphibians as I am one of them. I guarantee live arrival on all my shipments but most do not on the Amphibians because of their susceptibility to perish in shipping. That was my whole thing behind the other thread. Someone that is willing to ship them in that fashion does not care about the animals. That person does not guarantee live arrival except on Airport shipments according to their own terms.

 

[bpc]

It's no different than me wanting fire salamanders but realizing I can't have them because I couldn't possibly keep them at the appropriate temps without a financial burden that I am not willing or able to incur at this time.

In this case you have made a monetary decision, I think business and monetary discisions are very closely related. Caring for (in the terms of which you speak) and selling animals DO NOT go hand and hand in this business. I think your idea of caring for begins when the animal reaches it's final destination and it's final owner. That person then sets the animal up in a naturalist cage carefully monitors its diet looks at it lovingly at least every other day and basically makes the animal a pet. Animals on the business end of the spectrum do not receive that type of care, or if they do, you certainly can't get two of them shipped to you for $11.95. Animals on the business end of the spectrum usually live in minimalistic caging, often with other animals, and receive the minimal adequate care.

Again guys, I agree that mailing frogs is not the best way in the world to go about it. BUT, we have no evidence that: A) this practice has ever actually taken place and B) that the practice has resulted in the harm of any frogs. And I ask you again, have you even bothered to alert them that you are dragging thier name through the mud????

Steve, value is a subjective term. Everyone's "values" are different. I certainly value all living things. But I also understand the value of a dollar. And you know as well as I do the dollar value of cuban tree frogs. Shell Shop is a business. A business w/ an onwer who probably has a family. A family which has to be taken care of. If Shell Shop can deliver 2 cuban tree frogs in good condition to me for $11.95, and I'm willing to pay that, then how they do it is really no ones business except their's and mine (the customer). Now, if I, (the customer), don't want my future pets to be subjected to 3 days with the USPS, then I, the customer, should be willing to fork out the extra money to have them shipped in some other manner. Frankly, as these frogs are probably coming from the wild here in FL (where they don't belong). Shell Shop might even be doing FL's frog ecology a strong favor by mailing a few of these frogs out of here.

 

[SPJ]

OK, let's put this issue to rest once and for all.
Someone give me the link to order and I will spend the $12 on the frogs ( I have some whites tree frogs now anyway) and let everyone know what happens. I do know that with the heat lately, I have been heavily misting my frogs to avoid them drying out. I'll let everyone know how they they are packaged and shipped and how the frogs are when they arrive. Sound good?

 

[sschind]

Caring for (in the terms of which you speak) and selling animals DO NOT go hand and hand in this business. I think your idea of caring for begins when the animal reaches it's final destination and it's final owner. That person then sets the animal up in a naturalist cage carefully monitors its diet looks at it lovingly at least every other day and basically makes the animal a pet. Animals on the business end of the spectrum do not receive that type of care,

NO, what I said was that the amount of care an animal receives (wherever it may be) should not be dependent on the cost of the animal. I am not saying that you have to have all your animals set up in zoo type enclosures, All I am saying is that a $5.00 frog deserves the same attention as a $5000.00 snake. When profit is all that matters I can see where that way of thinking gets in the way. If you have to take shortcuts to make a profit maybe you shouldn't be selling that animal. Maybe you should stick with those that will allow you enough profit margin so you can take care of them properly. Maybe some animals just weren't meant to be sold via the internet.

And I ask you again, have you even bothered to alert them that you are dragging thier name through the mud????

Well, the thread was locked down on the BOI and it would have eventually gone away. You are the one who brought their name up again by starting another thread in this forum. In fact, I didn't mention their name at all. Did you contact them before you started this thread?


I think that this could have been a usefull discussion in a generic sense without bringing names or specifics into it but we will never know now.

Steve Schindler

 

[sschind]

Steve, value is a subjective term. Everyone's "values" are different.

Sorry, I forgot to address this. The only time I used the word "value" in my post was in conjunction with the term "monetary" as in "monetary value" which I am pretty sure everyone agrees to mean how much money did it cost. I know the term "value" in itself is subjective and that something that you may think has "value" is in fact "valueless" to me. The "value" of something often times has no correlation with it's "monetary value"

If my post was confusing, I am sorry, maybe I should have said

"I find it pretty disturbing when people determine the amount of care an animal receives based on how much money it cost."

rather than

"I find it pretty disturbing when people determine the amount of care an animal receives based on its monetary value. "



Steve Schindler

 

[Seamus Haley]

First... I'd like to say as a disclaimer that, since the topic was locked down... This thread's creation was slightly questionable... The first few posts dealt with generalities, but it's leaning back towards the BOI issue and named people... Which would not be appropriate for this forum and would not be appropriate since the other thread was closed down.

With that being said however... Jordan frequents one of the same chatrooms as I do, I've "known" him online for five or six years now and, while I have never purchased animals from him, I feel I've gotten a feeling for how he operates... He had a few, very few, things to say about the issue... First, that he wasn't going to register to post because the other thread went off topic so badly and he's not going to participate just to have it lost amid unrelated crap (The discussion about vet tech vs vet nurse was unrelated crap, had nothing to do with Jordan)... Secondly, that he never ships 2-3 day... That he uses Airborne or Delta Dash overnight service for all shipments. Using Airborne and smaller bulk packaging, I believe he'd be able to sell Cubans (wild caught in Florida is my guess) shipped without taking a loss.

I'm not sure what's up with the e-mail Rob supposedly got, but Jordan denied ever shipping or planning to ship in that manner...

And my entire post doesn't belong here... but neither does the last half of this thread... I'm not real comfortable writing this as it is, this entire thread stinks like it's going to explode the same way the first one did.

 

[WebSlave]

If you all want to have a generalized discussion about shipping practices, then there is a SHIPPING forum on this site for that use.

If you want to discuss the shipping practices of a particular person or company, that's what the BOI is for. But in this particular instance, you all blew it when it went wildly off topic, forcing me to close it down.

If you want to try again and think you can all keep it on topic in the correct forum, then have at it. But if THIS thread tries to resurrect the previous thread I closed and touch every topic in here as well, I will simply delete this one.

 

[bpc]

Steve, I used the word value because that is what I'm talking about. Can we agree the Cuban tree frogs are pretty low on the monetary value totem pole?

If so, here is what I mean. Shipping these frogs w/ 2-3 days service is acceptable because of thier monetary value. If whomever loses some in the shipping process they can replace them for about a buck each. It would also acceptable because of the hardiness of this particular species. 2-3 day service would not be acceptable for lets say, a chameleon, more delicate species of frogs, OR animals with much greater monetary value. Even though an albino ball could probably do ok in a box for 3 days NO ONE is going to take that risk.

As far as care goes, sure the $5 frog deserves the same care. But, unless that $5 frog is someone's pet it's not going to get it. Not (or at least very rarely) in the business world. The albino ball cage gets cleaned first, and we all know it.

Webslave, I'm not sure if I'm on topic enough or not. I couldn't tell if that was a gag order or just a warning. But I'm just hoping to point out that this company's descision was not one that should permanately label them as a bad guy. The original post struck me as one of those pity parties where everyone wanted to pile on so they to can feel good about thier sense of animal rights. When no animals had actually been harmed. And, in my opinion, probably would not have been.

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

I truly find it funny that now he is stating that he does not ship in that method and only ships Airborne and smaller bulk packages. He can deny it all he wants but I have the e-mail direct to him in response to the ad where I directly asked him what shipping method he woudl use and he wrote back and stated " I will be shipping the cheaperst 2-3 day service in your area" Now that the entire subject has come to light the ad has been deleted and now he is stating that he does not ship like that nor ever planned to. What a crock of horse pucky. Seamus if you would like me to forward the e-mail to you so you can see excatly that your friend said it let me know.

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

I would honestly like to see this person come on here and defend himself or at least come on here and make a statement regarding the issue. But I am sure he won't as he still has yet to respond to me in private much less on an open forum.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Just a really quick note...

I didn't say I believed anyone or didn't believe anyone, I merely stated what I was told.

I asked Jordan to come post here to clear up the problem but he declined to do so... Frankly I think it would do a lot to ease whatever doubts people might have, in one direction or the other but it's his choice to leave a bad guy post unanswered I guess... Even though this leaves people no real option but to believe the negatives.

I have a funny feeling this thread is going to dissapear in fairly short order... Although with it being closer to the topic of the one that it related to on the BOI and devoid of the secondary altercations... Maybe... it could just be retitled and moved to the appropriate forum? It seems to be a much more reasonable discussion of the situation... Without the unrelated stuff, Jordan might be more likely to consider responding.... maybe...

 

[sschind]

I am sorry if you all felt my post was off topic or aimed at any on person. I happen to believe it was neither. IMHO the topic was the care that an animal receives and that is what my post was geared toward, and yes I think shipping methods fall under that category. If it were strictly shipping methods I would agree it would belong in the shipping section, and if it were strictly care issues I would say it belongs in one of the care sections, but since Brian was equating the amount of care that a business can afford to give an animal vs the amount of money that business can expect to make off the animal I feel it is appropriate in the general business discussion.

Steve, I used the word value because that is what I'm talking about. Can we agree the Cuban tree frogs are pretty low on the monetary value totem pole?

You can talk about value how ever you want, just don't equate yours to mine. Yes I agree that Cuban tree frogs are pretty low on the monetary value totem pole, that doesn't mean that they don't deserve the care that will give them the greatest chance for survival, they can get. Not the best care that will give them the greatest chance for survival that the keeper can afford to give them. There is a difference.

My example about the salamanders fits here. My store is set for 78 degrees during the day and 74 at night. These temps are too warm for many salamanders. I could buy them anyway, put them on the lowest shelf, put a fan blowing on their cage, use ice packs to cool it etc. but we all know that that would probably not be enough to keep them from suffering in the heat. You are saying that it would be more acceptable for me to do that with a $5.00 blue spotted salamander than a $30.00 fire salamander because it is a cheaper animal. I say it is not.

Shipping these frogs w/ 2-3 days service is acceptable because of thier monetary value. If whomever loses some in the shipping process they can replace them for about a buck each.

This is my whole point, I find it sickening that people are willing to accept higher losses with no apparent regret simply because an animal is cheap.

It would also acceptable because of the hardiness of this particular species. 2-3 day service would not be acceptable for lets say, a chameleon, more delicate species of frogs, OR animals with much greater monetary value.

There it is again. In your mind, just because an animal is cheap means that you may treat them in a way that MAY cause a higher mortality rate than something that is more expensive. You may be right. Cuban tree frogs may be able to survive practices that other animals may not, but you would have to agree that better (read as faster) shipping methods would increase the chance of the frogs arriving alive. If you agree with that then you would conversely agree that subjecting the frogs to a substandard (read as slower) shipping method would increase the chance that they die in transit. What you are saying is that because an animal is cheap it is OK to subject them to practices that would increase the likelyhood that they arrive dead. If you would have kept your argument focused on the fact that the hardiness of the Cuban tree frogs make it more likely that they would survive certain practices, instead of saying that because they are hardy AND CHEAP its OK to subject them to practices that may increase the likelyhood that they die, I probably wouldn't have said anything, because in that limited scope you are correct.

Not (or at least very rarely) in the business world. The albino ball cage gets cleaned first, and we all know it

its not a matter of who gets cleaned first, its a matter of who gets cared for properly. First does not equate with proper, but apparenty cost does.


I hear what you are saying and I think you hear what I am saying. If you feel the need to respond to this then by all means go ahead. If you want to contact me privatly that is fine with me, but since the webslave obviously wants us to end this I will not reply on this thread any more. I think I have made my case. In the event I am still unclear I will try to sum it up.

The cost of an animal should have no bearing on the degree of care it receives, at any level of the distribution chain.

Steve Schindler

 

[bpc]

The world must be a beautiful place, when looking at it through those rose colored glasses of yours.

 

[Seamus Haley]

I also see moral problems with assigning a value as a living thing to an animal as a direct equation of it's sales value but...

One thing we have to realize is that the monetary value is based off supply and demand... Species that are more delicate, harder to breed or keep or ship... The demand is higher than the supply and thus the price is higher. The reason chams cost more than cuban tree frogs is because cuban tree frogs are practically bulletproof.

In this sense, a limited correlation exists between the dollar value of an animal and the amount of care it needs to remain healthy (either as a pet, a breeder or during shipping).

I *think* this is what Brian was saying, I don't believe he was saying "well treefrogs aren't worth money so who gives a damn what happens to them" I believe it was simply a practical analysis of the above mentioned situation and a honest reflection on the nature of "business"... people are more careful with things they have invested more (money, emotion, time, effort... just more of anything) into, more protective of that investment.