keepers of aggressive snakes

[Durante]

I'd advise each to practice what works best for them but seen a few posters advise they use separate tubs for feedings. I heard the theory that snakes associate your opening the enclosure door with feeding unless you use separate tubs.
From my experience I found it to be an unnecessary practice that requires additional handling of a snake that's hungry or in feeding mod & having a bigger risk of getting tagged. The problem is though... my experience is with a different species that requires totally different care so I became curious. Is the separate enclosure feeding method favored more with arboreal snakes & if so why? I didn't know if maybe they could be housed together or something? Thanks

 

[Edwardo]

And I apologize if my response came off as a little harsh. It just got under my skin a little bit since I love these animals and provide them with the best of everything. I'm actually taking my two newest arrivals to the vet today for a check up and to test for parasites and it's going to be a 4 hour round trip. I care for them, if I didn't I wouldn't be taking them to the best vet for herps in my state. I'm toying with the idea of taking a short video when I get back to show you guys how they latch onto me and WANT interaction. Maybe that will sway some of you who think they are strictly look but not touch pets.

If any of your emeralds displayed an interest in being more social, and all their needs were fully met (housing, food, etc) would you explore the possibility of handling them gently? I'm honestly curious, and I apologize again if my post seemed defensive and a little rude. I take pride in very few things and my snakes are one of them.

Tim that question goes for you as well, and I would love your input. Although I disagree with your onion I am far from all knowing and am open to learning and improving from others experiences.

AGoodwin, thanks for the support, I really appreciate it.

No need to apologize,

You seem hell bent on handling your etb's, so my only suggestion would be to
give them at least a good solid week, ( 7 days) to almost fully digest whatever meal you gave them, before you start handling them.

My experiences have been, once an ETB starts regurgitating its meals, it usually does not end well for the snake.

 

[AbsoluteApril]

If any of your**s displayed an interest in being more social, and all their needs were fully met (housing, food, etc) would you explore the possibility of handling them gently?

sort of. I have one amazon that is very outgoing, she does the 'stretch out to me' when I open her cage, I've held her before, but I generally just leave them alone. Then again, I have a lot so I don't spend much time with general handling anyways.

All snakes are individuals and I'm sure some are much more tolerant of handling than others, it sounds like you have some very outgoing comfortable ETBs. There's this guy I see at reptile shows that almost always has his GTP out being handled and held, it doesn't seem stressed, but he also admits it's 'an exception to the rule'. sorry for the crappy photo

Good luck with yours, I'd be interested to hear more as times goes on about how they do with you.

 

[Helenthereef]

I'd advise each to practice what works best for them but seen a few posters advise they use separate tubs for feedings. I heard the theory that snakes associate your opening the enclosure door with feeding unless you use separate tubs.
From my experience I found it to be an unnecessary practice that requires additional handling of a snake that's hungry or in feeding mod & having a bigger risk of getting tagged. The problem is though... my experience is with a different species that requires totally different care so I became curious. Is the separate enclosure feeding method favored more with arboreal snakes & if so why? I didn't know if maybe they could be housed together or something? Thanks

As far as this goes, I do most things wrong according to most guidelines... but it works for me and mine.... Bear in mind that I have a stable population, I don't trade or add new snakes, so I don't have issues with quarantine etc.

I house multiple (currently 4, in the past as many as 7) snakes in a large display tank with many floor hides, two large water bowls and three large perching branches. Feeding inside this tank would be disastrous for them (risk of more than one snake striking at a food item) and for me (risk of striking at me when my hand is in the tank).

I feed them by removing everyone from the main tank towards the end of the day (when they are sleepy as they are nocturnal) and putting everyone in their own individual feeding tub. I then feed them as dusk gathers and they start to wake up. (F/t 5 day old chicks, using tongs).

Since I've been doing this I NEVER get bitten due to mistaken feeding strikes. I can put my hands or even head right inside their home tank while they are on branches and they never even flinch.

Once they are in the feeding tubs though - boy, watch out. As soon as I raise the top of the tub to feed them they are right there and usually hit the tong within seconds of being offered.

They definitely know that once they are in their feeding tub by themselves food is on the way. When cleaning their tank I put them all together in one of the larger tubs, and they never look for food.

I feed them usually once every 2 weeks, less in cold season, maybe once a week when it's very hot. I don't handle them much until they have defecated, about 4 - 5 days afterwards most of the time. This is as much so they don't defecate on me as anything else - they have never offered to regurgitate.

Again, NOT EMERALDS - but you did ask!

 

[Durante]

As far as this goes, I do most things wrong according to most guidelines... but it works for me and mine.... Bear in mind that I have a stable population, I don't trade or add new snakes, so I don't have issues with quarantine etc.

I house multiple (currently 4, in the past as many as 7) snakes in a large display tank with many floor hides, two large water bowls and three large perching branches. Feeding inside this tank would be disastrous for them (risk of more than one snake striking at a food item) and for me (risk of striking at me when my hand is in the tank).

I feed them by removing everyone from the main tank towards the end of the day (when they are sleepy as they are nocturnal) and putting everyone in their own individual feeding tub. I then feed them as dusk gathers and they start to wake up. (F/t 5 day old chicks, using tongs).

Since I've been doing this I NEVER get bitten due to mistaken feeding strikes. I can put my hands or even head right inside their home tank while they are on branches and they never even flinch.

Once they are in the feeding tubs though - boy, watch out. As soon as I raise the top of the tub to feed them they are right there and usually hit the tong within seconds of being offered.

They definitely know that once they are in their feeding tub by themselves food is on the way. When cleaning their tank I put them all together in one of the larger tubs, and they never look for food.

I feed them usually once every 2 weeks, less in cold season, maybe once a week when it's very hot. I don't handle them much until they have defecated, about 4 - 5 days afterwards most of the time. This is as much so they don't defecate on me as anything else - they have never offered to regurgitate.

Again, NOT EMERALDS - but you did ask!

No, not ETB's but still semi-arboreal which is closer then what I deal with so i appreciate the explanation. I definitely get the separate feeding bins especially when you house a few fellas together. I guess depending on the species & being arboreal they have that extra personal space that the causes some of the ground "dwellers" to get a little stress. Thanks again for the info Helen.

PS - It's freezing here & I'm jealous!

 

[Helenthereef]

PS - It's freezing here & I'm jealous!

Don't be - we're sweating in 85oF heat with a high chance of tsunamis....

 

[Edwardo]

As far as this goes, I do most things wrong according to most guidelines... but it works for me and mine.... Bear in mind that I have a stable population, I don't trade or add new snakes, so I don't have issues with quarantine etc.

I house multiple (currently 4, in the past as many as 7) snakes in a large display tank with many floor hides, two large water bowls and three large perching branches. Feeding inside this tank would be disastrous for them (risk of more than one snake striking at a food item) and for me (risk of striking at me when my hand is in the tank).

I feed them by removing everyone from the main tank towards the end of the day (when they are sleepy as they are nocturnal) and putting everyone in their own individual feeding tub. I then feed them as dusk gathers and they start to wake up. (F/t 5 day old chicks, using tongs).

Since I've been doing this I NEVER get bitten due to mistaken feeding strikes. I can put my hands or even head right inside their home tank while they are on branches and they never even flinch.

Once they are in the feeding tubs though - boy, watch out. As soon as I raise the top of the tub to feed them they are right there and usually hit the tong within seconds of being offered.

They definitely know that once they are in their feeding tub by themselves food is on the way. When cleaning their tank I put them all together in one of the larger tubs, and they never look for food.

I feed them usually once every 2 weeks, less in cold season, maybe once a week when it's very hot. I don't handle them much until they have defecated, about 4 - 5 days afterwards most of the time. This is as much so they don't defecate on me as anything else - they have never offered to regurgitate.

Again, NOT EMERALDS - but you did ask!

Hello Helen,
That sounds like an interesting cage,
Have you ever noticed any signs of dominance or submissive behaviour by any of the snakes in the group, like some kind of a pecking order?

I would think that during daylight hours, they would pretty much keep to themselves, but once the lights go out, anything is possible.
Just curious.

 

[Snake-Queen]

I always remove my male ETB for feeding, he normally shares an enclosure with a female. He knows it is feeding time then. I always use tongs to feed & I think they recognize them. I have never been bit by my ETBs during feeding time.

I also put my ATBs in separate feeding tubs, as they share an enclosure.

 

[Helenthereef]

Hello Helen,
That sounds like an interesting cage,
Have you ever noticed any signs of dominance or submissive behaviour by any of the snakes in the group, like some kind of a pecking order?
.

Normally no, they seem to please themselves, although sometime two will be "sharing" an area (sitting on top of each other). I don't think that's a dominance issue, when it happens both seem comfortable, and funnily enough, it's the two who are litter-mates who do it most often.

However, I have recently split the largest female out into a separate tank - she's gravid and recently (about month 5 of a 9 month pregnancy) she did seem to start shoving the smaller female around. I wonder if they start wanting a larger territory for the potential offspring at that time, and so start to compete with other females. It's interesting.

(The tank is in my living room, so I get to observe their behaviour every evening)

 

[Helenthereef]

I always remove my male ETB for feeding, he normally shares an enclosure with a female. He knows it is feeding time then. I always use tongs to feed & I think they recognize them. I have never been bit by my ETBs during feeding time.

I also put my ATBs in separate feeding tubs, as they share an enclosure.

So any aggression problems at all when you are moving them around?

 

[hadenglock]

I appreciate this comment quite a bit, even if you were honestly curious, thank you for pointing this out.

I've noticed people get really stuck on the whole 'there's only ONE right way to care for _____ (insert exotic here) train. Emeralds are more exotic than balls and other species of snakes and I think that since not much is known about them people get this mentality. I just wish they'd realize that all animals are individuals and products of their environment as well. Look at the huge pit bull debate! Some say they're evil, some say cuddle monsters.

The faster people realize there is no one right way to care for exotics, the better off the species will be. (in captivity obviously.) Push the envelope, step out of the box. Whatever it takes. My goal right now it to produce some of the sweetest, most docile emeralds in captivity to date. I think it would be wonderful if more of these beautiful animals were placed into homes willing to explore all facets of their needs, not just cut and dry textbook care.

this "cut and dry textbook care" as you put it is what had us successfully breeding these animals in captivity in the first place. Keep in mind that snakes arent the smartest creatures on the planet, hell most of their prey items are smarter than they are. Therefore, these basic care guidelines are something you should follow, not to a T, but keep in mind that these snakes (and snakes in general) are no where NEAR becoming a truly domesticated animal like dogs or cats. It takes hundreds of years with an evolutionary process to make them become something like that, therefore we treat them as they should be treated like wild animals. Wild animals do not necessarily like human interaction that is why when it comes to a not so intelligent animal like the snake, most experienced keepers say "hands off" for the sake of the animal health. While i commend you on your dream to create something beautiful for the rest of us to admire, keep in mind where you are now in the world today and treat it as such. Im sure you understand all of this already, i figured i would just put it out there so you could connect the dots if something was missing.

 

[Snake-Queen]

So any aggression problems at all when you are moving them around?

Not from my male ETB or my ATBs. I do have to be careful of the one large female his is with currently ... she is definitely a look at snake.
My male likes to cruise around my neck an arms when I have him out.

 

[Emylee]

Thank you for the insight hadenglock. Although I have thought about the ideas you brought up on several occasions, it's always good to be reminded. It's very easy to forget just how wild these animals truly are when I'm surrounded by them. I agree with all you've wrote and appreciate you taking the time to remind me. The process of domestication does have to start somewhere though, and I still hope to make a contribution to it.

I would like to state an additional benefit of handling emeralds if any would care to listen.

This morning I was cleaning up some feces in a male emeralds enclosure. I noticed that after it was clean it still stank to high heaven so I took him out to see if he had any on him. Yep, sure enough he had a little smeared on him. Although he is no where close to being tame, because I handle him I was easily able to clean it off. This could have become a problem for sanitary reasons, and it was remedied because I handle him on a semi regular basis.

Also this same emerald pulled a tooth about a week ago while feeding, so while I had him out I was able to gently lift his lips to make sure nothing was infected.

Also, today because I was handling a female with some scale issues (she had several brown wrinkled scales when I got her, along with various cuts and scrapes and general dehydration), I was able to drain and treat an abscess that I would have NEVER noticed if I did not handle her. By the time I would have been able to see it from a distance, it very well may have become a incredibly serious health hazard.

Obviously it has to come down the the individual snake whether the benefits of frequent (or semi frequent) handling out weigh the negatives. I just felt the need to point out that 'hand taming' an emerald isn't just for the benefit of the owner. It can save lives when done with common sense, yet I can't deny the possibility of it taking lives if done without.

 

[AGoodwin]

Another great point, Emily. Without occasional to frequent handling, many potential problems could be caught too late. Another plus of being able to handle an animal. Weighing. With many animals, the first sign of illness before any VISIBLE cues, is sudden weight loss.

I weigh and all my reptiles weekly to ensure they are gaining/maintaining a healthy weight. While they are out, I also like to do a quick health check-up. Eyes, nose, heat pits, vents, scales, etc. Whatever is applicable to the particular animal to make sure there aren't any problems developing. I even listen to them to make sure I don't hear an RI developing. A little obsessive? Maybe, but I would rather know of a problem sooner than later, especially when later can mean checking in on them one day to find them dead. This wouldn't be possible if I didn't make sure my pets were comfortable, or at least tolerant, of being handled.

 

[Snake-Queen]

Another great point, Emily. Without occasional to frequent handling, many potential problems could be caught too late. Another plus of being able to handle an animal. Weighing. With many animals, the first sign of illness before any VISIBLE cues, is sudden weight loss.

I weigh and all my reptiles weekly to ensure they are gaining/maintaining a healthy weight. While they are out, I also like to do a quick health check-up. Eyes, nose, heat pits, vents, scales, etc. Whatever is applicable to the particular animal to make sure there aren't any problems developing. I even listen to them to make sure I don't hear an RI developing. A little obsessive? Maybe, but I would rather know of a problem sooner than later, especially when later can mean checking in on them one day to find them dead. This wouldn't be possible if I didn't make sure my pets were comfortable, or at least tolerant, of being handled.

Very good point Amanda! I like to check over my snakes at least once a week or every 2 weeks.