Ken of Exotic Pets in Las Vegas*BAD*

[napavalleysnakes]

More Thoughts...

Well after reading this, I'd have to agree with Sasheena Kurfman, I certainly admire the way Ken has handled this situation.
Ken, I've never met you but I do visit Vegas pretty regularly and would love to check out your place : )

Shipping was improper in this case and the cause of the demise of the ratsnakes.. With the modern technology we now have in the herp business (styro boxes, overnight carriers, heat and cool packs), I've still never lost an animal during shipping and have sent snakes from Alaska to Death Valley.

One piece of advice I can add for Bobby is, next time have the shipment delivered to the local Fed-Ex branch and Held there if you're unsure of the temps. What this does is eliminate any chance of a communication error leading to the demise of an animal.

This entire scenario would have been (if package was sent and a hold placed on it) that the box arrived in Vegas in the early AM, went to the Fedex station, a call was made to Ken at his shop, and Ken would have gone down and collected up the box and live animals...

Thanks, Stephen Emerick
Napa Valley Snakes

 

[Python Dreams]

A few months back I drove out to Vegas to pick up my E-Orracle Autococker (arguably the best paintball gun) at a tournament. ;-) I happened to see Exotic Pets and I stopped in. I'm very interested in Ball Pythons and they happened to have two big females. One looked WC and in need of attention and the other looked big, fat, and healthy. I was helped by a long hair guy that was extremely helpful and very nice (dont know if it is Ken). He never tried to lie in anyway and told me he believed them both to be fresh imports they had recieved the previous day. He weighed the female at 2000 grams and fed a rat to her right in front of me. All seemed well and she was at an unbelievably low price. Well after she finished the rat she started gurgling a little and coughing weird (probably RI). I decided to pass, but he told me they would treat her and to call back in a few weeks to check in. I really believe that they would have gotten her all taken care of, and I wish I would have checked back in. She was very nice with no scars, big, fat, and HUNGRY!!!! hehehe. Anyway I was pleased to get 100% complete honest salesman who was just their to help, not to push a sale. That was my experience with Exotic Pets.
Thanks, Tom Baker

 

[Corey Sawyer]

Ken Foose is one of the best. He is one of the FEW I am still willing to send BEFORE payment.

 

[Sasheena]

Most tracking numbers (if not all) simply mention that a package is on the truck for delivery. None of them say "ETA: 8:48"

I had a package shipped here and decided never to get a package in the summer again due to the worries I had waiting for it to arrive, hoping the weather would not kill them. It arrived at 10 am and the styrofoam and newspaper plus the cold pack meant that the temperature in the box was in the mid 70's (cooler than the house temp which was 80 degrees). The package was delivered and the temperature was 90 degrees or hotter.

 

[Morelans]

Hmmm;.....

omg.. is this still going on??

I said it earlier and I will say it again.. DELTA DASH... I know when they leave and a time they will arrive. There is also no trucks or overnight shipping etc.. unless you are Waaaay accross the states. Even then there is usually an early flight that will make it there in the same day.

Why are we still screaming about UPS and FEDX? I was told when I first called that they will not even ship animals.. and if I tried and got caught that I could be fined and loose my animal as well. So lets face it.. they both knew what shipper was being used.. so that is the fault of BOTH. If everyone loves their animals so much and are soo apauled at this one incident.. then why do so many of you use methods that are not designed for the one you love sooooooo much? Yea.. seems odd to me too.

As for the box.. I think I heard someone say it was not packed correctly. (YEa that was a sarcastic joke) I agree it should have been packed with styrofoam and a cool pack at that least.

Do we really need 8 pages of this being said over and over? I am not even sure the original parties involved are still even here?? I would go back and check but if I hear one more bash on either side I am afraid I may hurl my dinner back up.

I usually only lurk.. now I remember why. This is like talking to a wall. For the love of god people let them work it out and deal with your own reptiles.. please.

BTW.. I really do love my animals.. so I dont mind going through the red tape to become a Known Shipper and paying out the nose to ship. Well.. yea I hated the process.. and it was horribly slow.. but I did it.

So who was more wrong? Is there a level of wrongness??

I heard 50/50.. that sounds good and fair I might add. They both knew they should have used a correct method of shipping.. so -1 for both. Box was piss poor.. -1 for seller... No one there to accept package when it arrived.. -1 buyer... did I miss anything?

SCORE PLEASE... -2 -2 Looks like a tie game folks!

I am not on either side.. I am just sorry things didnt work out and 2 snakes are dead. We can not bring them back but only learn from the mistakes and hope they can work it out between them.

Whew...
Shawn

 

[Ghi Reptiles]

First off, I think it is a real tragedy that some animals died! I think it is obvious that the receiver of the package was not at his place when the package first arrived. I ship a lot all over the country and the most important aspect of shipping is to prepare for the worst.

1. "Bobby failed to label the package correctly, no species listed, no "Live harmless reptiles" not even a "Perishable, handle with care, avoid extreme temps"

I did not see the box, but if it wasn't properly labeled with signs of caution like 'live harmless reptiles', 'live cargo', 'perishables', 'avoid extreme temps.', or the like warnings, your precious animals get thrown right in with Susie's roller blades. Live cargo is taken care of properly in most cases and it is placed in a seperate area of the truck (I have two friends that work for fed-ex and UPS).

I really don't think that the box sitting around overnight or even the next morning was an issue because 90 degrees will not kill the animals in the box. The issues seemed to be in the packing. If indeed the box was not, 'IN BIG LETTERS', labeled properly, how are the people handling the box suppose to know to NOT leave it in the sun or how are they to know to keep the box cool if the first delivery failed.......they don't. I thought I read somewhere in the two threads that the animals were in plastic containers. This is a huge mistake in my book in the summer. If one of those animals goes to the bathroom in it's container it becomes a virtual sauna of acidic gases. All reptiles should be in bags with an absorbant substrate such as newspaper or paper towels thus avoiding suffocating them if they get hot.

I do believe that Bobby's feelings of, 'if the receiver was there in the a.m. the animals would be alive' is a legit argument, but on the other hand the receiver also has a legit packing and labeling argument that also holds ground. Does the argument of improper packing and labeling outweigh the arrival time argument? It is very tough because there are too many 'what if's'. What if Ken was there at 8:30 am, would the animals be alive? In my opinion.....YES. What if Bobby labeled the package as 'Live Harmless Reptiles' etc..., would they been taken care of by the carrier better after the missed morning delivery? Again.....YES. Would they have had a better chance of survival being packed in cloth bags with a gel pack or two along with them? YES.

115 degrees as an expected daytime high is too hot to ship anyway so that is another problem. Should Ken have let the shipment come to him and should Bobby have shipped the snakes out? NO on both ends. My feeling is the costs should be split. My opinion only!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[KelliH]

Shawn-

Fed Ex does allow shipments containing live animals but you do have to have a special account with them which includes a daily pickup and does cost a bit more. You just have to call them and ask

 

[Morelans]

Kelli.. sorry I was unaware they allowed shipments of animals. I was told when I called that they did not allow it. However, I have heard others say the depending on who you get on the phone. they may or may not be aware or just hate snakes and say no.

I just feel this is a bad situation that is only getting worse.. I really think there were multiple mistakes and I hope they can work it out together and we can all learn something from it.

The finger pointing is not going to bring back the animals.. not that you did that.

Thanks for the input in Fed X.. I will have to give them another call and see what they say. The not knowing when it will arrive scares me.. but would be nice to have an alternate in case I ever need one.

Shawn Morelan
www.SouthernBoids.com

 

[Urban Jungles]

Calling the kettle black eh?

I have recieved numerous animals from Bobby Pruett over the course of almost 2 years and can easily say that his packing methods are...well, "wanting".

In November of 2001 on my very first transaction with Bobby Pruett I recieved 2 hatchling and juvenile R. leachianus that arrived just short of frozen. There was no heat pack in the box and the animals arrived listless and ice cold. A few of the girls who work at my museum eagerly volunteered to warm up the poor animals using their body heat (damn lucky geckos) and luckily they pulled through.

This scenario was repeated twice more over the course of 2 years where the animals were either sent with no heat pack (Mr Pruett ran out - his excuse) or the cheap 10 hour ones that don't last nearly that long. Luckily Rhacodactylus are relatively hardy animals and they pulled through.

In another incident about a year later Bobby Pruet sent me 2 adult leachianus geckos in snake bags during the spring. The female was fine but the male was packed in a snake bag that still had the remains of its previous resident's fecal matter smeared along the inside along with solid urate material. The male gecko arrived with a mouth injury inflicted by the female (which I was not told about) and when I pulled him out of the bag his entire mouth and sore gums were covered in white powdery snake urates. The gecko subsequently developed minor stomatitis. I immediately notified Bobby about how upset I was about the situation and he apologized but that is still no excuse. I spent the next 2 weeks irrigating the wound and although stressed and angry the gecko luckily pulled through.

In yet another incident I recieved a snake on behalf of my partners/friend from Bobby Pruett. As I opened the snake bag I immediately noticed the inside of the bag where the knot was twisted and tied was smeared in a dark red fluid. I soon realized that the fluid was from tons of mites that the snake was infested with....in order for them to have been "smeared" like that the snake must have been inthe bag for a while prior to shipping in order for the mites to gather along the top like that before they were smushed. 2 cans of provent-a-mite and several weeks later the snake was finally rid of the mites.

As far as your "Terms" page Bobby I wouldn't invest much in it considering how many times it has been changed in the last year in order to fit your needs whenever a problem arises. I believe this caused one well known and respected emerald tree boa breeder to back out of a trade deal with you.

If anyone wished to read some of Bobby Pruett's class act posts the working link for the Corallus.com BOI is

http://cgiapps.aplushosting.com/~co...n/ikonboard.cgi?s=3f0e12f76a88ffff;act=SF;f=3

Just be warned that the level of profanity spewed by Mr Pruett there is not for the faint of heart.

You'd think after 13 years one would develop a sense for packing animals for transit. Shipping animals without insulation is no excuse and little consellation for the animals that died a slow, agonizing and painful death. Proper packaging is ALWAYS the responsibility of the shipper.

Way to keep a professional attitude Ken. I'm sorry for your loss.

 

[mconley]

My feelings are, the animals were in transit a very short time. A couple hours in the morning in that climate should not have been a problem. On the other hand, riding around in a hot truck most of the day. I disagree that delta is the only way to ship. I've personally had many shipments miss flights. I had one shipment last year lost for two days. They couldn't find it, but i did by calling all the connection points, go figure. I recently shipped frogs in from a very respected dealer. On his website it states guaranteed if your there to receive, Arboreal ETC's site states the same. Ken you were not available to receive them, period. I really believe if you had paid for these animals, you would have taken this more seriously. Your hours are your problem. I have to arrange my day when I'm getting animals shipped in and so should you. I work construction and have to take the whole day off, because you never know what time they will arrive. We will never know what condition they were in at 8:45am. Ken you should work this out with Bobby.

Mike Conley

 

[Morelans]

For all that have read this far.. if you have seen my posts with the name
SHAWN MORELAN
WWW.SOUTHERNBOIDS.COM
please be aware I am also known as

whew...
Shawn.

Just in case there was any confusion.. seems my attempt to stop this bickering baffled me enough that I did not sign my full name to my 5th post in this thread. Because of that.. I have been issued my first warning point.

Just out of curiousity.. do they also issue whinning or already said that 4 times so quit wasting thread space points?

As for Delta shipping.. I am sure they have their share of problems and I didnt mean to come accross as they are the shipping gods. I just thought they were the only ones I knew of that allow and accept live harmless animals as a shipment.

That is all.. thanks.

Shawn Morelan
www.SouthernBoids.com

 

[Wilomn]

No matter what happened with the delivery, the shipping was reprehensible. That combined with the fact that they were in transit for more than 24 hours takes it right out of Ken's court and puts in in bobby's.

There is no way, obviously, that they could have survived in the heat packed as they were. Heck, 20 minutes in 100 + heat would have killed them. The fact that the box was not labled to tell the driver that there were live reptiles in there is just plain foolish. Had that been on the box even a rookie driver would have most likely called the number on the door to let Ken know he had a delivery of live animals for him. Why would he bother for anything else, as is made evident by the fact that he didn't.

I can't see any way around this other than putting it all on bobby for his terrible shipping methods. The fact that Ken is willing to even consider working something out on this deal is amazing. I would have to agree with whoever said it earlier that this has done more FOR your GOOD reputation than not. And bobby, you are killing yours here. Buck up, accept the responsibility, and move on to better shipping practices. This is not the first or second or third time you've had problems with your methods. CHANGE THEM!!!!

Ken, if you ever have something I want I will not hesitate to do business with you, bobby you are a definate pass.

Wes Pollock

 

[snkkpr01]

WHEW Shawn

Shawn, I agree that Delta is good. But when you live 2 hrs from the nearest Delta desk it is really tough to use them all the time. I use airbourne because (for the most part) the boxes get there on time and are not banged up, or beat up in any way.

I really can't understand why Ken can be any way at fault. I will have to remeber this thread next time someone that I know gets a DOA. That way I can tell them that they are 25% at fault because they didn't track the package right away.

It would be assinine for Ken to track every package that is sent to him. Being in his store in the morning, I can tell you that the number of boxes that come through his door is enormous.

Seamus. You rock and I hope to meet you or do business with you someday. You are the kind of guy I want on my side.

Ken is a ....GOOD GUY..... and that is all there is to it.

Bobby I do not know you, nor have I done business with you, I truly believe that in this situation YOU are the only person in the wrong here.



Darin Gray
Stone Cold Reptiles

 

[Ghi Reptiles]

Hey Darin,

I do belive that from what it sounds like the packing and labeling job was bad and Bobby should be able to accept his part in it but I also think both were in the wrong for shipping and letting animals be shipped in such hot conditions. I just bought a couple of animals from my friend and he wont ship until his whether cools a bit. His daytime highs are right around a mere 100 degrees. I really stand by my opinion that BOTH are responsible and they should work it out.

 

[mconley]

Matt,

That seems fair to me also. Why not split the loss and move on? We're not talking a huge sum here. Also The tracking was wrong on the pickup time I'm sure. They always pickup in the afternoon ( late) . So the animals were in route through the cool of the evening.

Mike Conley

 

[Ghi Reptiles]

Hey Mike,

I agree the time through the evening and early morning had ZERO to do with the deaths so that is kind of a non-issue. The improper labeling and both parties wanting to ship in the hot conditions should have responsibilities falling on both ends. Sound fair to everyone?

 

[Darin Chappell]

Darin (cool name, by the way!),

I think I was the first to suggest the comparative negligence angle of this and came up with a possible figure of 25% blame to lay at Ken's feet. However, that is only because it may be that those animals may have been alive had he been there to receive the package at the first delivery attempt. It was just a suggested way for Ken, if he chose to do so, to hold out an olive branch of some sort to put this mess behind him.

I require the person receiving my animals to be there for delivery in order for my guarantees to remain intact. However, since the overnight carriers do not guarantee when the earliest time of delivery can be, I may have to rethink that approach. I may have to have all deliveries held at the carrier's depot for customer pick-up instead.

Even so, Bobby is to blame for the overwhelming majority of this, because he simply did not ship those animals properly. He has failed to admit any wrong-doing whatsoever, and that tells me even more about his character than anything else in this thread.

You never did answer my direct questions to you, Bobby! We're still waiting . . .

 

[HerpVenue]

While some of you say both sides are at fault.....
I SORTA see why you say it.

At first when I read Ken was not there to recieve his snakes...............I was ready to call him a bad guy blah blah blah blah. CORRECTION..I was not gonna call him a bad guy. I was just gonna say it was his fault. How does anything here make Ken a bad guy?

BUT

But then I realized they were delivered to his place of business.
His place of business does not open until 9am. He was there at 9am.

So now we are gonna say it is Ken's fault because he did not get there until 9am?

1. Who are we to decide what time a person should open his place of business? If no one was there after 9 I can understand. But to ask people to be there before 9 might be a little too much. 9 is a magical number for me.

Someone suggested since Ken had the tracking number...he could have looked up the ETA. The ETA is not available on line. In fact it is not available unless you are going through Delta.

Also, as for Bobbies packaging. Sometimes all it takes is a carton without styrofoam.
BUT
only if the weather was conducive to shipping in such a way.

On one hand....what shipping method works for one person may not work for another.
On the other hand. Shipping without cooling paks in 115 degree weather is asking for trouble. If it was 80 I can understand...But 115?


Bobby, Posting him as a bad guy is over the top.
He has not done anything yet. And he was not given the chance too.




If I was in Bobby's shoes...............it would be very tough to do. But I would go ahead and eat up the expenses. And chalk it up to lesson learned.

If I was in Ken's shoes..................I would have some Bad words for putting up a bad guy thread without trying any sort of contact.
I would be pissed if I was expected to change my store hours for one person. But I would come ine early if someone would have clued me in to the arrival time.

 

[DThomas]

Hey Mike,

I agree the time through the evening and early morning had ZERO to do with the deaths so that is kind of a non-issue.

The Phoenix area where I live is almost identical to Las Vegas. We are lucky if the temps drop below 90f during the night and they usually do not. Heat IS an issue 24/7 during the summer, here and there

 

[Darin Chappell]

Ritchie,

I see your point, and I agree with it for the most part. I DO NOT think that Ken is a bad guy in any way over this deal, and I still think Bobby needs to accept the vast majority of the blame here.

However, as a question of logistics, let's look at things a bit differently. A customer tells you, the seller, that he wants an animal shipped to a specific place. You then ship it to that place. Is it not the customer's responsibility to choose a place where he can receive packages, no matter what the time may be? After all, FedEx only guarantees the latest time of delivery, not the earliest. Is that the shipper's fault, or should the buyer take that into account? Granted, I had never considered this possibility, but after this thread, I'll probably have to do so.

You also stated that 9 was a magic number for you. Fair enough; I agree that 9 is probably about as early as I would have expected a delivery too, before now. However, what if my shop were closed till 10:00 or 11:00? What if my magic number is different from the seller's? I just think that this is too hazy a point for us to be resting any kind of argumentation upon.

I think Ken is completely justified in expecting a later delivery time, based upon past FedEx shipments of my (and I'm sure, his) experience. However, THAT part is not something I can blame Boibby for in any way.