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Bad Guy Keven Vogenberger Misrepresenting Imports.

Snake-Queen said:
That would still fall under captive hatch, even though this species give live birth.
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:shrug01: He states that they are captive born.....they were born in captivity. Animals born to live bearers are captive born, not captive hatched.

This is why I am not so quick to condemn someone for being deceptive when those terms are used interchangeably.
 
MikeCurtin said:
:shrug01: He states that they are captive born.....they were born in captivity. Animals born to live bearers are captive born, not captive hatched.

This is why I am not so quick to condemn someone for being deceptive when those terms are used interchangeably.
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Which is why most people moved over to "captive bred" when an animal was truly produced in captivity instead of just born or hatched in captivity.
 
You are correct.

I would also like to re-think my defense of innocent confusion between captive born and captive bred, James. I just went back and found a thread where I defended Keven for the same "mix up". Considering the past confusion, he should certainly be paying better attention to his descriptions of the animals he sells at this point.
 
Just due to his actions in his first thread, I stopped giving him the benefit of the doubt right then. Even worse than not taking responsibility for one's actions is the really disingenuous attempt to pull shade over people's eyes by immediately saying you've changed, etc. His "taking responsibility" was very superficial and in my opinion, a sad attempt at manipulation. Since then, he has further solidified that opinion with his actions.
 
JCCS said:
Just due to his actions in his first thread, I stopped giving him the benefit of the doubt right then. Even worse than not taking responsibility for one's actions is the really disingenuous attempt to pull shade over people's eyes by immediately saying you've changed, etc. His "taking responsibility" was very superficial and in my opinion, a sad attempt at manipulation. Since then, he has further solidified that opinion with his actions.
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You talking about Ed or Keven? :rofl:
 
MikeCurtin said:
:shrug01: He states that they are captive born.....they were born in captivity. Animals born to live bearers are captive born, not captive hatched.

This is why I am not so quick to condemn someone for being deceptive when those terms are used interchangeably.
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Well, imo I won't buy anything that is CH; nor CB without asking a ton of questions, since CB could be captive bred or born.

Captive bred is more desirable, since the breeder has both parents (excluding breeder loans) and the mother was cared for properly during her "pregnancy".

Regardless of the thread starter, this is helpful in pointing out that Keven is outright being deceptive or very ignorant of the terms used to describe his animals.
 
Ed, did you contact Keven about this at all? I initially gave Keven the benefit of the doubt. I stopped that a while ago after he showed himself over and over acting the same way and doing the same things.

However, I don't think it's fair to anybody to assume something and post a BOI thread. Knowing Keven, he will launch a series of hysterical posts that will further sink his credibility, which maybe is why Ed posted this rather provocative thread?

I suspect he doesn't understand the (admittedly vague) terms like CB, farmed, Captive hatched etc. If he were calling WC imports CBB I would take issue with that, but I don't see that he's doing that.
 
tlmoon said:
I suspect he doesn't understand the (admittedly vague) terms like CB, farmed, Captive hatched etc.
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He isn't the only one doing this ... look around and you'll see others who deal in wild caught animls who do the same.

Of course they know the difference between captive born and captive bred and born ... they're counting on people new to the hobby who havent yet learned the difference.
 
JimM said:
He isn't the only one doing this ... look around and you'll see others who deal in wild caught animls who do the same.

Of course they know the difference between captive born and captive bred and born ... they're counting on people new to the hobby who havent yet learned the difference.
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Jim that's exactly why I started this thread,this seller has done this a few times that I noticed before.its not hard to differentiate between an imported captive born and a captive bred blue tongue skink.His ploy is to attract the attention of the younger and unknowledgeable buyers.they see captive bred and then buy.the thing about the halmahera's is they are imported by the thousands every summer. they are not a good beginners blue tongue,in fact the are a fragile advanced keepers blue tongue.Halmaheras have A requirement for very high humidity(80-100%) if you look at Kevens pics you can see he is keeping them on kiln dried shredded aspen. a big no no for a high humidity species.
 
bcr229 said:
For those of us who, like me, do not keep and who are not familiar with skinks, can you point out how you can determine this from the ad and/or pictures?
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The number of imports that come in every summer and most if not all online flippers start advertising at around the same time.they are creative about the wording but just about all will never use the word captive bred,except Keven Vogenberger. also no one breeds Halmahera's,it would be better to say almost no one breeds Halmahera's.it's not that they are difficult to breed it's their requirement for extreme high humidity.

Then there is the fact they are a fragile blue tongue even for advanced keepers.

I have been keeping and breeding blue tongues since the late 1970's I have a wealth of knowledge about all the different types of blue tongues, I'm speaking up to try to protect the younger members that have less experience.

Someone like Keven Vogenberger lying about the back ground of these blue tongues can cause alot of damage to a person as they doubt their ability to successfully keep reptiles.

I do not know why he does it. he is selling them below the imported prices, it's not that the wording is confusing because it's not.maybe he is thinking this will give him a step up on the ladder above everyone else?

He has been busted misrepresenting reptiles on this board in the past. maybe if he gets called out more he will see the light? I doubt it!
 
I have some adorable little captive bred baby halmahera blue tongue skinks available for 179.99 plus shipping. These little skinks are all feeding great and doing great. Please call 239-233-7585.
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This is from keven's ad,notice that he is selling captive bred baby halmahera blue tongue skinks.

Does anyone think they are real deal captive bred?
 
That certainly insinuates that there were hatched as a result of breeding from a captive pair, I would agree that babies dropped from a WC import should be stated as such, and that the ad is deceptive if indeed they are hatched from recent imports.
 
That's right Matt. If you don't have an actual argument, just say the argument isn't important.
 
Accurate labeling of animal is, in fact, important. CH/CB and CBB are totally different things.
 
I am not sure Keven really knows the difference (or up from down with these things for that matter). Just reselling what he gets his hands on from all appearances. No different than buying from the list itself, but with an extra pair of fumbling hands and the extra costs associated with middleman activities between the end consumer and the list.
 
I believe that the difference has been explained to him in the past, under similar circumstances.
 
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