Kingsnake.com

[Sybella]

I'm bit frustrated with how Kingsnake.com handles their TOS and I want some opinions from others on this, please.

Let me start at the beginning...
Someone posted in the venomous forum stating that they had 4 venomous snakes they no longer wanted. They wanted suggestions on what to do with them, as they felt they could not release them into the wild.

I responded to their post, saying that they were right, that they could not release them into the wild and that the best thing to do would be to offer them for adoption here at Fauna, in the adoption forum. (As you read my responses to the Kingsnake mods, you'll get more details on this.) Then, I posted a second time, saying that I thought it would be a good idea to check on the potential adoptees using the BOI.

Of course, the next day, I discovered that both of my posts were gone. Then, this morning, I get an email from one of the mods from Kingsnake about my "behavior."

--- "[email protected]" [email protected]> wrote:


Hello Sybella,

Regarding some of your recent posts, please be aware that by registering and using our sites and services, you are agreeing that you have read, and will abide by, our Terms of Service.

We clearly state the fact that we reserve the right to delete, remove, or edit content posted or published on our site. We will not edit forum posts simply for content, grammar, spelling, layout, or meaning, but reserve the right to edit for violations of the TOS, triggering our profanity or URL/email filter, the inclusion of identifying personal information about others, technical problems, and other unforseen complications.

As is noted in our Terms of Service:

--Any attempts to thwart profanity, website, URL, or other filters, or any other security features on our site, are a violation.

You have clearly made an attempt to directly circumvent our site's filters by posting the url to a known banned website. Please stop doing this.

Although from time to time a host or staff member may warn a user about a violation, or post a general warning to a forum, photo gallery, or chat room as a courtesy, we have no policy guaranteeing that anyone will be warned about violations on their account, nor any specific number or type of violations that may result in action against their account. When/if a person
has their ability to log in, post, or upload on/to the site rescinded,
or had posts or images removed, or had their access to chat rooms blocked, they need to contact the site coordinator of the appropriate site and appeal the action. Third-party intervention on behalf of someone else is ignored. Any public discussion of actions taken against a user's account will be removed, and we will not discuss actions taken against a user's account with
anyone but that individual themselves. What happens to a member in regards to their personal account and/or behavior on our forums, chat rooms, etc. is of no concern to anyone else.

If you have any further concerns or questions regarding the moderation of the kingsnake.com forums by its moderators/hosts, you may feel free to take it up with [email protected] .

Sincerely,

--
PHWyvern

To which, I replied:

First of all, thank you for writing me, Wyvern. Maybe you can answer a few questions for me.

I've been puzzled for quite some time as to why some website urls are filtered while others are not. How are we supposed to know what is on your "banned website" list? Specifically, why is Fauna banned? What else is on this infamous list? It's all a mystery to me, as well as to a lot of people.

You're right, I did purposely circumvent the filter but I did it
for the sake of the animals. I don't normally do it but this was
important. That person needed help placing venomous snakes in experienced homes. If I understand correctly, the whole purpose of Kingsnake.com is to benefit the reptile community as a whole, not selectively help one person or another because what they need is on a "banned website." Before placing a venomous snake anywhere, the person must check out potential adoptees. The snakes are potentially dangerous and to not thoroughly check first is foolish. Where else can that be done, other than the BOI? I know this is all a side issue but I hope you understand why I did what I did. (Man, I feel like a criminal! LOL!)

'Bella

Then, I got an email from Ginger:

Hello Bella,

Actions taken against any individual or website are covered in our
privacy agreement and not discussed with anyone but the individual or website involved. We cannot discuss it with anyone else.

Thank you for understanding.

Should you need to reply, please include this email in it's entirety in your reply for tracking purposes.

Sincerely,

PHGinger

To which I replied:

Ok...so let me see if I understand. We're not allowed to mention certian websites because it's against your TOS but you will not "disclose" what sites are on that list?? Please explain. This makes not one bit of sense to me.

'Bella

Then, I got an email from Christie (by this point, my head is spinning as I don't know WHO I'm talking to anymore. All of my responses went to the same email address but all the replies come from different people.):

Dear 'Bella,

You asked:

> We're not allowed to mention
> certian websites because it's against your TOS but you will not
> "disclose" what sites are on that list?? Please explain.

I think you misunderstand what the TOS prohibits.

It's not against the TOS to mention certain websites. We do not take action against any user for simply mentioning a website or company name that is in our site filters - we simply use the TOS to notify you that those mentions will, in fact, be filtered.

What is against the TOS is seeking to thwart our site filters, which is completely different.

We do not provide a list of the names of sites or companies or words that are in our site filters. We do this for a variety of reasons, which have to do with liability, with not helping folks figure out what they need to "thwart," and for privacy issues.

Since we do not act against users who innocently trigger our site filters, there are no TOS-related consequences to our users. It is only deliberately seeking to thwart the filters that is a TOS violation.

Christie Keith

What is up with their filters and why wont they tell us what isn't allowed?? I don't understand. I mod a few forums myself and I would never expect the members to follow rules that I wont even tell them about!!

PS. I contacted the guy with the snakes off Kingsnake and again recommended that he come here and post an ad. Hopefully he'll find homes for them quick.

 

[bmm]

You are confused because they are confused. They can't even explain inforcing rules, yet not posting those rules. They cannot even tell people which websites are banned, yet will filter them out, delete posts etc if anyone mentions them. If you purposfully got around the filter, same thing IMHO as they have NO WHERE on their website a list of websites which they would prefer no be linked too.

Personally, I stopped going there a year ago. I have "checked in" briefly though since reading your post, and the funny thing is....not one forum there is any good anymore. Even the ball python forum has slowed to a medium crawl, and the rest are jibber jabber.

Ah well.

bmm
Marisa Brophy

 

[Darin Chappell]

Sybella,

I got banned from KS about a year ago or so, for doing exactly what you described in your post above, or so I thought until just recently. I had been under the impression that I was banned because I asked (mulitple times) why Gerry B. from the fieldherpers forum had been banned, when there was no apparant reason for the action. However, I have since heard from a mutual friend of JeffB's that I was actually banned because I was rude or hateful to one of the mods.

I'm known for being rude and/or hateful to people on a real regular basis, you know!

Anyway, whenever I get ready to swallow my pride and say that I am sorry for being rude/hateful, I guess I can be unbanned. I am sorry, if I came across that way, and I would apologize in a New York minute, if I thought I had. However, I am waiting to see if the reason changes again somewhere down the road, because I really don't believe I was to anyone at KS.

Any way, I have not checked in on the old forums for a long, LONG time. I don't miss it much, and I suspect the feeling is mutual!

 

[Sybella]

Wheew!! At least it's not just me! LOL!!

It's funny that one of your mentioned being banned. When the first wrote me, I thought they were telling me that they banned me for this. I *think* I can still post there...I haven't found anything worth replying to today! LOL!

Meanwhile, I haven't even answered the last email because it's just too ridiculous. At this point, I don't know what else I could say. I don't think my questions were unreasonable but it seems that a straight answer is.

As far as discussion forums, I do like several (if not most) of the regular participants there...Marcia, Bill DiFabio, KelliH, etc. in the leopard gecko forum, Chance and Frank (rearfang) in the venomous and rearfanged forums, and so on. I go through spurts where I read and participate daily, then I don't go back for months at a time. I also like that, in general, if you ask a question, you get an answer or 2 within a couple hours. And, sometimes I've needed that! LOL! But, if you guys have a suggestion for a better place for me to go, please tell me! I've about had all I can take of Kingsnake.com!

PS. Maybe Rich can ask why this is the site that can never be mentioned.

 

[robin d.]

sybella,
why dont you start posting here.. you might get a little slower response but we are trying to get faunas forum discussions going. hey maybe you can help sponsor o or help out one of the discussion groups here... the leo forum is getting good and a few of us are working to get some of the other forums going as well. if we ALL pitch in we wont have to bother at all with KS ever again we just need to get the ball rolling and get the word out on the forums here newbies and seasonsed herpers

 

[WebSlave]

Well, being the curious type, and wondering if this time maybe I will actually get an answer, I sent the following email to PHGinger:

Recently one of your users posted on my message board concerning actions of one or more of the moderators on kingsnake.com deleting their posts for a supposed infraction of your TOS. The gist of the message sent to this user (Sybella - sorry, I don't know what name the user goes by on kingsnake.com) was that the messages posted violated the TOS by trying to circumventing this rule: "Any attempts to thwart profanity, website, URL, or other filters, or any other security features on our site, are a violation."

Further, you have stated: "Third-party intervention on behalf of someone else is ignored. Any public discussion of actions taken against a user's account will be removed, and we will not discuss actions taken against a user's account with anyone but that individual themselves. What happens to a member in regards to their personal account and/or behavior on our forums, chat rooms, etc. is of no concern to anyone else."

Well, understand that FaunaClassifieds.com and the Board of Inquiry (BOI) is my site and since it is my site that was banned I am asking why this has taken place. I am "the individual" that this needs to be discussed with. So I want to know why FaunaClassifieds.com as well as nearly all of the rest of my domain names are treated the same as curse words and profanity on kingsnake.com. As such, they present to the users of your forums the highly probable impression that I have done something explicitly in violation of the TOS of kingsnake.com in order to be punished in this manner, and as such, casts myself and my websites in a very negative light.

So with the above in mind, I am requesting an official reason why my sites have been treated in this manner, and if such a verifiable action on my part that has violated the TOS of kingsnake.com cannot be produced, to have said censorship of my domain names removed. It is my believe that such actions on the part of management of kingsnake.com are damaging to my reputation. It is my opinion that allowing the users of kingsnake.com to jump to any unfounded conclusion that pops into their heads, based on statements that moderators of kingsnake.com make when queries are made about WHY domain names and URLs have been banned, they are designed to imply wrongdoing on the part of the people and websites that have been banned.

I firmly believe that I have NEVER done anything to violate any TOS of kingsnake.com prior to my domain names being banned and filtered. But I welcome you to shatter my belief.

Thank you.

Any bets on me getting an answer other than "it's not my department"?

 

[Sybella]

sybella,
why dont you start posting here..

I just went over to the leo room after I posted in this thread, Robin. One of us is a mind reader! My gosh!! It's booming and it was dead the last time I looked! LOL! I've just posted in several threads in the leo room and plan to keep up. I agree about pitching in.

Oh Rich!! That was wonderful! Thank you! Maybe you can get them to make some sense of this. I'm really tired of people saying things like "over at that site we can't talk about," or, "the site that shouldn't be mentioned," or seeing "BeepCo" in place of SerpenCo, etc. If people need help with their animals, I don't think it's unreasonable that they go to other sources when one can't help them...but to deny the members the right to make those suggestions is just wrong.

(My username is Sybella over there as well so there shouldn't be any confusion...I just hope this doesn't get me banned! I've never been banned from any site before. LOL!!)

 

[WebSlave]

I sincerely doubt my query will be answered with anything substantive. Previously when I have asked for the reason why my sites have been blackballed from kingsnake.com, I was told that only JeffB makes that determination and I would have to ask him. Well, so I did. And he has NEVER responded to any of my emails to him. So my impression is that people can get banned from kingsnake.com, in my opinion, for no real reason, and no one will even attempt to come up with a good reason for it, when the person banned asks about it. Certainly that is what has happened to me, and I never even spent much time over there except to check into the corn snake forum every now and again.

If I have ever done anything other than refusing to delete a thread on this site for JeffB or having JeffB irritated at me because my teeny weenie site is considered as competition for him, well heck, I'd sure like to know about it. I would sure hate to think that he has made this such a personal issue between us.

Now, I must confess that after my commercial SerpenCo.com front page listing account was cancelled and my logon account in the forums was yanked, I did register again under an assumed name. I found that the name [b-l-e-e-p] (sorry about the dashes, without them it will trigger an inline graphics replacement) was available, so I took that. Seemed appropriate. And darn if someone didn't delete that as well. No sense of humor, I guess....

 

[Wraith]

Ok, maybe you can explain your logic to me.

You're right, I did purposely circumvent the filter but I did it
for the sake of the animals. I don't normally do it but this was
important

If something gets [b-l-e-e-p]'d on kingsnake.com then it does not take a rocket scientist to know that it is not allowed. Put faunaclassifieds.com into a post on kingsnake.com and guess what - it gets [b-l-e-e-p]'d out (unless you take pains to get around the b-l-e-e-p with odd spacings in the URL which is more than likely going to get you in trouble at some point). It's certainly no secret to the majority of folks that the BOI is one of the 'banned' from kingsnake.com - just read all previous discussions held here in earlier threads over it all.

Here you go to a website that has rules saying that circumventing their filters is a big no-no. It does not matter WHY they might have chosen to "ban" a particular website the fact is they have chosen to do so - it is Jeff's site and he can do as he pleases there just as Rich can do as he pleases here. You obviously from your comments knew up-front that it was a big no-no to try and point people here to Rich's site and yet you made the decision to break their rules anyway and then complain when your posts get pulled. I just don't understand it. You were at fault when you broke their rules - so why are you complaining? They even sent you a notice and explained why your posts were dumped (which is quite shocking all on its own as from what I hear they apparently don't give people that rare courtesy very often). You turn around and then CONFESS outright to them that yes you broke their rules!? geezus. Then you have the audacity to request that they explain to you why they have chosen to ban someone else's website even after they already told you up-front that you cannot as a third party request that kind of information from them. Talk about wishful thinking!

I honestly think you should be pretty damn lucky they didn't ban you for all this. Hell chances are as soon as they find out you brought all this over here they still might ban you for it. From my point of view, it's a pretty damn stupid game you are trying to play with them.


Adrian

 

[Sybella]

I honestly think you should be pretty damn lucky they didn't ban you for all this. Hell chances are as soon as they find out you brought all this over here they still might ban you for it. From my point of view, it's a pretty damn stupid game you are trying to play with them.

Oh come on!! That was ugly and uncalled for! Talk about audacity!! Who do you presume you are to think you can talk to me like that? I am a very nice person and I like to see the good in everyone but I find it extrememly difficult to do with you. I have no patience for this, as I find rudeness intollerable. Remember that you are NOT my mother. Keep your claws in from now on. They have no place here.

Let me clear a few things up for you since you asked me to explain my logic (which everyone but you seems to have understood).

This isn't about me breaking the rules, whether or not I was honest about that or about my posts being deleted. Yes, I knew the site url would be censored. What was I supposed to say, "Oh...I didn't know...I just put spaces in between all the letters for the fun of it?" I may be bold but I'm not a liar. I never have been and never will be; I'm not good at it. And, so what that my posts were deleted. That was just part of the details that led up to the main issue; the purpose of me making this thread.

About me questioning after they told me not to, come again? Reread their first email to me, where they talk about third-party intervention.

Here, I'll quote Wyvern for you:

When/if a person has their ability to log in, post, or upload on/to the site rescinded, or had posts or images removed, or had their access to chat rooms blocked, they need to contact the site coordinator of the appropriate site and appeal the action. Third-party intervention on behalf of someone else is ignored. Any public discussion of actions taken against a user's account will be removed, and we will not discuss actions taken against a user's account with anyone but that individual themselves. What happens to a member in regards to their personal account and/or behavior on our forums, chat rooms, etc. is of no concern to anyone else.

In case you missed it, they were talking about individual accounts, not the profanity and url filters alienating particular websites. For example, if I were banned, they wouldn't talk to you about me and why I was banned. And, if I were banned, it's would not be against the unposted rules and/or TOS to mention my name on the forum. IE: "Sybella" would not be censored. Never once did they say that I could not ask why Fauna and other sites were censored and what else was on that list. In fact, Wyvern invited more questions here:

If you have any further concerns or questions regarding the moderation of the kingsnake.com forums by its moderators/hosts, you may feel free to take it up with [email protected] .

Now, if you read my last paragraph, you would have understood why I posted the thread here and where I'm having issues with Kingsnake.com. Here it is again for you:

What is up with their filters and why wont they tell us what isn't allowed?? I don't understand. I mod a few forums myself and I would never expect the members to follow rules that I wont even tell them about!!

So, here's the issue clearly spelled out: My problem with this is the rules, posted or unposted, and how they are enforced. And also with the blatent discrimination of certain websites, how they don't tell you what or why, and then punish you for speaking of alienated websites. Censoring your words is a form of punishment or control, as much as deleting a post is. It's denying your privilege of stating your own words on a public forum, in a public place; denying your freedom of speech. And lastly, that they can't be forthright about these "rules" in the first place but dance around with their jargon, such as their privacy statement and TOS.

Rich pretty much summed it up when he said this:

So I want to know why FaunaClassifieds.com as well as nearly all of the rest of my domain names are treated the same as curse words and profanity on kingsnake.com. As such, they present to the users of your forums the highly probable impression that I have done something explicitly in violation of the TOS of kingsnake.com in order to be punished in this manner, and as such, casts myself and my websites in a very negative light.

Rich is getting sorely mistreated and the animals potentially suffer because of it. Don't bother telling me again how "lucky" *I* am.

 

[dwedeking]

Oh, please.

You knowingly broke the TOS over there and then decided to play with the moderator. This is fine, and I have no problem with that, but it's pretty pathetic to hide behind the "it's for the animals" argument. LOL. If it was truly "for the animals" you could have emailed the guy, originally without mentioning this site, and then when he responded with your attempt to help you could have given him the site.

Are their filters over on KS stupid? Yes. Are their draconian heavy handed processes stupid? Yes. Really their forums are 90% mental masturbation for the under 16 crowd, so any "help" you could get would be of limited value. And any real help would more than likely come from a "known" breeder or enthusiast who you could call or email without dealing with KS, their TOS, or their filters.

Does Rich have a legitimate gripe? Sure. Has it effected his business? Maybe some, but from the conversations I've had with Rich he seems like a smart business person and it probably hasn't effected his bottom line dramatically. He doesn't come across as a person that puts all his eggs in one basket.

So to say that it's a stupid TOS. Fine. To say their jerking Rich around. Fine. To F with one of their moderators. Fine. To pull an emotional argument "it's for the animals, so I'm an angel and untouchable" is bogus in the extreme. I personally have a pet peeve with people that do this kind of heart-string BS.

 

[E2MacPets]

It's denying your privilege of stating your own words on a public forum, in a public place; denying your freedom of speech.

For crying out loud. Kingsnake.com is a business. You do not have freedom of speech there. Go into any store and start loudly telling the customers that a competing store has better merchandise at cheaper prices and see if that is tolerated. Private enterprise, not public property. Understand? Freedom of speech does not apply. If not, then the only one confused here is you.

Bashing KS is becoming a sport to some of you. Get over it and move on.

 

[Sybella]

This is the only time I've had a "gripe" with Kingsnake.com and I'm not "playing" with anyone. And as far as getting over it and moving on, I am not making a "sport" of bashing anyone. That's not my style. I shared with you the sequences of events that happened over the course of the last few days for a reason. I thought someone could shed some light on the subject of why they filter what they do, etc.

If Kingsnake.com is a "business" then why is it ok to talk about any other site but Fauna, SerpenCo, and a few others on this "list?" If Kingsnake is a "business" like any other you say, why is it ok for one to come to a public forum to talk about their experiences with any petstore but not Kingsnake? How many times have you read about the horrible customer service at a pet store? I've never seen anyone attacked for sharing that...why is this different? Because it's a website? If that's the case, I'm not following you all in that paradigm.

I didn't speak my mind to get flayed for it. If one couldn't provide any relevant explanations as to why things are the way they are, a simple, "Yeah, that sucks," might have been sufficient. I'm not saying everyone has to agree with me...it's cool if you don't. Disagreements can be quite enjoyable. I'm just saying, DO NOT attack me in the process. Just because you disagree, doesn't give you the right to be nasty to someone. If you guys can't be civil to me, I'm done here. There's really no point to this. I thought I'd come back to a lively discussion on the subject. If I knew I'd have to defend myself every step of the way, I would not have posted.

Wraith, I felt your post to me was way too harsh and lashed out in defense but two wrongs don't make a right...peace?

PS. Marisa, Darin, Robin and Rich,
Initially, this thread was very nice and I appreciate that. Thank you so much for your input!

 

[E2MacPets]

If Kingsnake.com is a "business" then why is it ok to talk about any other site but Fauna, SerpenCo, and a few others on this "list?" If Kingsnake is a "business" like any other you say, why is it ok for one to come to a public forum to talk about their experiences with any petstore but not Kingsnake? How many times have you read about the horrible customer service at a pet store? I've never seen anyone attacked for sharing that...why is this different? Because it's a website? If that's the case, I'm not following you all in that paradigm.

How does pointing out percieved flaws in a company's policies make it any less a company? And actually I believe your argument is moot anyway, because it is against ks policy to bash petshops as well to my knowledge (i recall threads on boycotting petco being removed, for instance). That the inforcement of the rules seems arbitrary and hypocritical is a different issue than the right to make and inforce rules as the company sees fit.

 

[Seamus Haley]

it is against ks policy to bash petshops as well to my knowledge (i recall threads on boycotting petco being removed, for instance).

Which implies something MUCH larger there... Because those posts were supporting PetNo, a PETA run campaign (Literally PETA, not just PETA-esque) and one which is known to be supported by Melissa Kaplan... Who, if I remember correctly, started a number of the threads with links to the rediculous petition.

Since Kaplan is a moderator over there, I suspect very strongly that there was some kind of legal (or financial) manuvering that happened quietly and with discretion... and the links haven't shown up since.

For my part, I am Kingsnake bashing. I enjoy kingsnake bashing. I see kingsnake bashing as being positive and will continue to do so at every avaliable opportunity.

The site has twisted and ever changing rules which individuals are expected to follow, they price gouge tremendously, the entire thing follows the dictates of a sad, angry man who wants to be something more than he is... Barringer himself a a second rate hack of a kingsnake enthusiast who has taken what he did (Supply a place for people of much higher quality for himself to spread information) and tried to turn himself into some kind of herpetological God who deserves respect (he doesn't). The moderators are psycotic anti-pet trade activists who want nothing more than to further their own socio-political agendas and few of them have anything approaching a reasonable qualification to be in positions of authority when it comes to the regulation of information. If anyone angers the all powerful Jeffy-boy, they get banned... There is no real reason needed beyond this, the TOS will change to fit the circumstance and the "rules" are no protection for ANYONE who chooses to use the site.

Rich is far too diplomatic to say it... the reason that fauna (and Rich's other sites) are banned over there is because he didn't bow down and kiss the feet of Lord Barringer. Jeff knows his position is tenuous at best... the real hardcore diehard well respected can do no wrong authorities in the herpetological community seem to regard him as something to be tolerated at best... He needs to leech respect from the new hobbiest or the isolated but competent breeder who doesn't realize that there's an entire class of individuals who are, to put it simply, better than Jeff in every single respect.

Kingsnake is a great site (great meaning large and sometimes impressive) but it was made a great site by the people who chose to utilize it... not by it's "creator" Every person who can legitimately be called an expert who took the time to write some caresheets or participate in a hosted chat or answer some forum posts, every well known quality breeder who decided to pick up a classified account... THEY made Kingsnake what it is, all Barringer did was invite them to do so. If all those people decided to leave... to do their business someplace else, Jeff would be left with nothing but little kids asking what to feed their leopard gecko, Melissa Kaplan and ads from Neil Gubitz. Some have already done so... moving off subtly or directly, the entire site has gone downhill... not as many people posting in the forums who can give answers... just more and more who are asking questions. The classifieds seem to be a little less crowded than they were before too... Lot of ads from the same people. If they left, there would be no real reason to check the site at all.

Despite the somewhat irritated tirade above... the solution to the kingsnake problem is not arguing with the moderators (There are only two kinds over there, the kind who think that grass should have more rights than a human being and the ones who are dumber than bricks but can copy and paste replies based on keywords) or trolling their forums... It's to find another site and make it all the things that Kingsnake once was but will never be again.

 

[E2MacPets]

Seamus I often agree with you but I cannot support your feelings towards the moderators as I consider several of them to be friends although surely we are not close.

They are not experts in every aspect of our hobby but nor do they profess to be. They do however support the hobby and are knowledgeable about specific aspects of it depending on the individual.

They are people and they have jobs which they do as they are required to. They are good people, in general.

 

[WebSlave]

Latest stats from Alexa.com, offered without comment.

Traffic rank for FaunaClassifieds.com: 
Today    1 wk. Avg.   3 mos. Avg.   3 mos. Change 
64,751   53,951       74,365            up  39,560 

Traffic rank for kingsnake.com: 
Today    1 wk. Avg.   3 mos. Avg.   3 mos. Change 
12,018   13,399        9,548             down  946

 

[Sybella]

How does pointing out percieved flaws in a company's policies make it any less a company?

The difference is the exchange of money. The discussion forums are a free and public service and therefore, should be governed a little differently than one would a commercial business, or the classified forums, in this case. I'm just answering your question so you know where I'm going...it's totally ok if you disagree with me on this.

And actually I believe your argument is moot anyway, because it is against ks policy to bash petshops as well to my knowledge

It may very well be against a rule (or something!) over there but, for example, take a look at the leopard gecko forum. There are at least 3 threads on each and every page page where someone is saying something about their experiences with PetCo and other pet stores.

But again, "bashing" isn't the issue here. Talking about your experience and asking for opinions is very different than bashing. When I posted this thread regarding Kingsnake.com, I said, this and this and that happened and what do you all think? I never once said anything remotely like, "Kingsnake is a lame piece of crap that doesn't deserve the..." yadda, yadda, yadda. (Shoot, I can't even think of something really nasty to say! LOL!) So, while it may be against their rules to "bash" PetCo, I think they let it go when people say things like, "I just went to PetCo and the cages were horribly unkept. What should I do?" Take a peek over there. You'll see what I mean.

And, regarding moot points, this whole thread is a moot point! I know that as well as everyone else here does. LOL!! The bottom line is, Kingsnake.com can do what they want because it is their site. But, these "issues" bother me so I spoke up...and I feel so much better now, especially after reading Seamus's post! (Straight-forward and honest; my kind of man! LOL! )

The only thing that isn't moot is this; If people didn't speak up, there wouldn't be any changes at all, such as shipping companies and rules about shipping reptiles.

Rich, how did you get those statistics? And geeze, I feel sorry for you...you must have a rather ugly bandwidth bill.

 

[Sybella]

Darn, those quotes didn't start and end as I intended them to. There were supposed to be two quotes with text in between. The bold is Mac's words and the regular text is mine...I'm glad I did THAT part right, at least! LOL!

 

[E2MacPets]

Understand that the forums exist to draw customers for the advertisers.