Kingsnake problem, anyone else had this problem with classified account?

[Bob Clark]

Brett, Just because Miller has done his time doesn't mean he's satisfied his debt to me.

I"m trying to be a big boy about this thing but I can't let it go. In the summer of 1994 I sat here with a dozen het female ball pythons either gravid or incubating eggs. The ones that had hatched and some of the ones still incubating were sold and held with deposits. One day I came to work to find all of them gone, all the babies, all the eggs and all the adults. I had to go back and refund the deposits I'd accepted. There were very few albino ball pythons in those days and I had them all the day before! My life changed dramatically. It put my business on the rocks and caused a lot of hardship for me and my family.

You act as if there is an adversarial relationship between big breeders and their customers. At least, in my case, I have an interest in my customer's success. Maybe its because I'm a good guy and maybe its because I know if my customers do well they buy more animals from me. I don't expect to have a "monopoly" but only to compete for as much of the market as I can. This, in my book, is not a character flaw as you imply. I breed quality animals. I do it with as little inbreeding as possible and with good "morals", your implication to the contrary not withstanding.

Very often those in the reptile world (and the world in general) that succeed are often targets of those that didn't. Those that didn't rationalize that if a person has a big piece of the pie that somehow they got a piece of their pie. They take some pleasure in seeing successful people take a hit. Its been called "get even with'em ism". This view of life is not healthy. Don't succumb to it Brett. I"m just a guy that loves reptiles and loves this business.

Brett, I know we formerly had a link to your site on my website and now we don't. I don't have any links on my site now. I hope this wasn't the cause of any hard feelings.

 

[MikeWilbanks]

You know, maybe Savannah was helped by Jeff just to tick off Bob, hell, I would do that if I were Jeff. He can't run a snake business so he helps her do what she needs to run it.

I can see why Jeff might take some evil pleasure in it, but why would Savannah want him involved? She had to know that involving a thief and felony animal smuggler in her new reptile business might have detrimental effects on its success.

 

[TJEvans]

At the same time Bob, I also don't think it's right to use your "power" to strongarm a person out of the largest market on the internet. Regardless of your former relationship with Mr. Miller, it supposedly hasn't been proven that he is financially involved with Savanah's business. There IS a lot of speculation and ideas as far as how she got her license, the money to begin such a project, her AGE at getting involved in the project, etc. But there has been NO OBVIOUS mention of Jeff Miller making all of this possible. I would agree with Adam, that Miller may have coached her into this, helped her get the license, told her what to buy (perhaps knowing that YOU wanted it) all to get back at you.....I know that in Savanah's shoes, I probably would have gone along with it. Do you all think that Jeff Miller would stiff Savanah when his sole purpose is to make Bob's life hell?

If he makes ANY legit money, it goes to Bob. If he opens a business, the proceeds go to Bob. Basically, Jeff is back in the business of what he loves dealing with, reptiles, while at the same time, he doesn't need ot make ANY money at it....all he wants is a form of revenge.

Once again, this is all pure speculation though.

I just find it wrong that Savanah was revoked her account at Kingsnake because of speculation.

Incidentally, a while ago in the thread, somebody disputed the claim that KS doesn't control 90% of the reptile business. The problem here is you're looking at it from a consumer point of view. Under Private/commercial breeders alone there are 273 businesses listed. I'm not sure how many INTERNET reptile dealers there are, but I'm almost positive that it can't be more than 500 (once again, 273 doesn't include importers, rodents, educational, zoos, etc) Basically, Kingsnake is THE LARGEST resource for reptile related dealers to sell their goods. By Banning Savannah because of mere speculation, Jeff Barringer has denied her the right to use the LARGEST ONLINE REPTILE resource in order to enable her business to thrive.

I could understand everyones thoughts if it was PROVEN that Jeff Miller in fact PAID for these animals (that money is owed to Bob) or that the import license or contacts were EXCLUSIVELY Jeff Miller's. But the simple fact is......it CAN'T be proven. I have no problem with Jeff Barringer banning all known ciminals, but I also know that there are some on his site that ARE known (past) criminals. It's just that THEY weren't banned because nobody called in the "favor" to Jeff.

Once again, the subject of this post. Should Savannah have been REVOKED her posting rights on KS classifieds because of a suspected involvement with Jeff Miller who stole animals and owes money to Bob Clark, not Jeff Barringer........Bad decision on Jeff's part if you ask me. Drawing some parallels to Tony Cuerto too.

 

[natas]

Just a quick FYI Bob

Yes we did have a link to your site...even a banner as a trade with your webmaster. The banner was no longer on your page so I removed it in fairness to all the paying customers on my site. Our link section still has you listed as it does with everyone else that has submitted there link. We offer this as a free service to anyone thats wants there name shown in our link section.

It wasn't out of hard feelings or anything like that...just fairness

And for my statement on this whole ordeal I will say that things are just getting interesting and I rather not post my opinion of the matter publically. I just hope something will get resolved and this war be over!

Natas
Owner of Redtailboa.net
The best free online reptile community

 

[Bob Clark]

TJ, I'm not strongarming anybody. I have no idea why, or even if, Savannah was not allowed to post on Kingsnake.com

 

[trisha]

Could I get an answer

This is the main question I would like to see answered.


Savannah,
Still waiting for you call. Unless I hear from you today I will expose you and Jeff on Kingsnake. Bob Clark

How did you plan on exposing her???


Where is the offer for snakes at $2000. at??

 

[Bob Clark]

Tricia, I would have posted this same information on my website and posted a link from Kingsnake. I'm not sure what you don't understand about the $2000 dwarf Burmese. The snakes were offered to my customer in Europe who offered them to me. Simple.

 

[Roger Jolly]

Bob,

With all due respect, we have a credibility issue here with your statements.

From: "Bob Clark" | Add to Address Book

To: "Savannah"
Subject: morphs webpagege
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 09:42:07 -0500

Savannah,
Still waiting for you call. Unless I hear from you today I will expose you and Jeff on Kingsnake. Bob Clark

It looks like two choices here interpretting this:

(1) You were bluffing (lying) to Savannah using this as a threat.

(2) You are lying to use saying you have no idea how Jeffie found out about Savannahs alleged link to Jeff Miller.

Are we to believe that this was all just a coincidence? Does Jeffie ban so many people so often that this just happened to take place around the time you were making your threat to Savannah?

Well, I have believed some whoppers in my time, but not real recently.

Was this part of the deal with Jeffie that you both would disavow any knowledge of each others actions? Another Mission Implausible?

Just where the hell is Ritchie Luna in this anyway? Oops, maybe this is too close to home for Ritchie and his self interests and he just doesn't want to step on that Bob Clark toe.

 

[trisha]

Maybe I read the E-mail wrong but it looks like this is from a customer telling you about Ms. Wong selling them for $2000.
I don't see MS. offering them to you for $2000. but for more and a month later.
So did you buy any???


Here's an email from one of my European customers:

----- Original Message -----
From: Au.bengali
To: Bob Clark
Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 3:43 PM
Subject: Re: snake price list


Bob,
sorry, I did not know it was hollyday,
did you have the list with burmses for me ??

the dwarf burmese womes from one Islands from indonesia as far as know, and they grow only 2.50 ( +/-)
Miss Wong ask 2000$ for them ...

I would like the shipment next week if possible
regis


So if you were going to post a link on kingsnake to your forum, when were you plaN You sent that e-mail to her on the 21st of October. I see no message on your forum to link to and today is the 7th. Long enough to do it.first

 

[Hues1]

Just playing the devils advocate...........

this was in Savannahs very first post in the beginning....

I am curious as to how many people out there have had their kingsnake classified account canceled with no reason and with unusual suspicious circumstances

If you ask me, it seems as if she was implying that her account had been canceled.

Then she posts this.........

I never said in my post my account was canceled and never said Jeff Barringer did it

So which one is it ?

Although Bob did threaten to "expose" her connection with Miller to Jeff B. over at ks. Wether he did or not and wether Jeff B. did or did not cancel her account because of it....is left to be seen and proven if you look at Savannahs own posts.

So as devils advocate...it may very well be true that Bob thought her account had been canceled the same way I would've gathered her account got canceled if you read her 1st. post.

Hopefully that clears up the mystery of how Bob "knew" her account had been canceled.

 

[Adam Block]

Look, we have like five issues here.

1) The reason for the tread, Savannah being kicked off KS.

2) Bobs threats to hear, something he's avoided time and time again.

3) Jeff Miller and Bob

4) Savannah and Jeff

5) Peoples proven unwillingness to speak up against big breeders.

Webslave, can you help sort this all out so we don't have so many issues in the same thread. I can't tell what Bob and Savanna are avoiding and what they aren't reading.

Ritchie and his self interests and he just doesn't want to step on that Bob Clark toe.

Be it Bob Clark, the Barkers, NERD or anything other big name Ritchie has never been fair with his interrogations, it's always a pretty one sided thing directed towards the underdog. Oh well, (hunches shoulders) some people need to stick with the majority.

 

[ms_terese]

Just where the hell is Ritchie Luna in this anyway? Oops, maybe this is too close to home for Ritchie and his self interests and he just doesn't want to step on that Bob Clark toe

There's another thread about Ritchie Luna that should explain why you probably won't hear from him on this thread, but that was a nice stab at Ritchie all the same.

I am curious as to how many people out there have had their kingsnake classified account canceled with no reason and with unusual suspicious circumstances

You know, I had made the same assumption that her account had been canceled. I also don't understand what the "unusual suspicious circumstances" are, she never elaborated.

 

[Hues1]

Although Bob did threaten to "expose" her connection with Miller to Jeff B. over at ks.

After re-reading my post....I realized I had jumped the gun, because no where did Bob ever say he was exposing her to Jeff B., he said "kingsnake" ...which could possibly mean the message boards.

My apologies.

 

[Hues1]

Just where the hell is Ritchie Luna in this anyway? Oops, maybe this is too close to home for Ritchie and his self interests and he just doesn't want to step on that Bob Clark toe.

Cheap shot....Ritchie has proven himself here time and time again to be fair and honest.

If you dont see it that way.....find somewhere else to TROLL.

 

[Cheryl Marchek AKA JM]

Slow down a second

This is all moving very fast, and I am confused. As Alex pointed out she first said:

"I am curious as to how many people out there have had their kingsnake classified account canceled with no reason and with unusual suspicious circumstances
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then:
I never said in my post my account was canceled and never said Jeff Barringer did it
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THEN Finally:

And here is email from Jeff Barringer just 2 days after bobs email above, saying “Savannah,
If you post an ad to sell anything I will expose your connection to Miller. I think this will not be good for your business. Bob Clark”

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 14:53:00 -0500
From: "Jeff Barringer"
To:
Subject: Re: 16512 - Secure Online Credit Card Transaction

We are sorry but we will be unable to supply advertising services
to your business.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is this contradictory?

Someone needs to write this all into a book. I had no clue my hobby had so many dark corners.

 

[herpetological]

It seems that there are several things that make you go Hmmm?
Savannah.... as far as I've seen, does not have a solid answer as to her banning from kingsnake. Before it's speculated we need to know exactly why? I was around when all this happened to Bob and can understand a long standing animosity towards Miller. It makes no sense at all that an 18 year old can jump right into the business and know what they are doing without an experienced person backing them up. I've imported for years and if I had all the money i've lost or been burned on I could retire. I've known Anson for years. If I were new in the business I would think twice. Considering the problems over the years that have gone on. Especially considering the money. It would make more sense that the Wong's were dealing with a known or previous customer. Nothing against Anson or his wife they have always made good. Just alot of things don't add up. It points towards Millers involvement.. That is why Bob is pushing so hard. I can't agree but, don't blame him. Now.... in regards to Kingsnake.. we all have a choice. If you don't agree with Jeff don't do business. If I lost my account it wouldn't slow me down a bit. Plenty of choices for advertising. It does help but, I've been in the business for over 25 years. I don't need to advertise. However, I'd be crazy to say I couldn't use the extra sales. It's just like people who say, "you took my customer". If you are supplying quality and support your customer will never go anywhere. It's only when they become disappointed with you that they go elsewhere. Same goes for websites/classifieds. Good luck with the project Savannh. Be careful with your associations. JMHO
Thanks Ray G. HBR

 

[MikeWilbanks]

Maybe I read the E-mail wrong but it looks like this is from a customer telling you about Ms. Wong selling them for $2000.

You are reading the email wrong. I remember Bob called me and told me about the Dwarf Burmese a couple of months ago. He said that he had a customer in France that was offering to get them for him. He asked if I thought that they were interesting and I told him that I would be a little skeptical of them. That was the last thing I heard about them until Savannah sent them to her friend Julie to chase Bob down at the KC show and try to get him to buy them there. He looked at them, thought they were interesting, but not worth the money they were asking. At that point, he did not know of the Miller connection. This was not a project that Bob was dying to get. He thought that they were a little interesting. I had only minimum interest. He only became really interested when we found out that Miller possibly owned them.

Before Bob asked Savannah about Jeff Miller, she was very eager to sell them to him. As soon as he asked her about Jeff, she began running. Why not just say, "Jeff is a friend of mine". It was her lying that started the real suspicion? If she had nothing to hide, why did she act like it? Why is she hiding now and not on this thread?

So if you were going to post a link on kingsnake to your forum, when were you plaN You sent that e-mail to her on the 21st of October. I see no message on your forum to link to and today is the 7th. Long enough to do it.first

This forum thread made this all come out before the investigation into Miller and Savannah had been completed, so this was a little premature. I am sure that the information will be available when the investigation is complete.

 

[Adam Block]

Ritchie has proven himself here time and time again to be fair

You must have lost your mind! All I've ever seen him do was pick the popular side then run the other person into the ground without ever asking questions of the person people seem to be on the side of.



Savannah said her account was closed and I think quoted the email she got.

My account was closed in an email from Jeff. I was trying to find out what his motivation for deleting my ads was as I assumed I was just stepping on the wrong toes. When I emailed him to find out if I reposted the ad removing the part that violated TOS would be allowed he said no. When I emailed him asking him to just tell me he wouldn't allow the ad no matter what he closed my account.

He's a pouty little child and it shows in the way he runs his business. Jeff has been sued by smebody, I don't remember who but I had the link to the court papers. Maybe somebody else knows..

 

[Adam Block]

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 14:53:00 -0500
From: "Jeff Barringer"
To:
Subject: Re: 16512 - Secure Online Credit Card Transaction

We are sorry but we will be unable to supply advertising services
to your business.

Here's that email with Savannah saying her account was closed. This was TWO Days after Bob said he'd let the cat out the bag to Jeff! Can anybody say this is just chance? Come on, Bob made the call, Jeff broke the law and Savannah is out an account.

This to me is a VERY clear violation of the RICO act and I honestly feel Savannah if what she's saying is true would/could win a court case against Jeff, something I would strongly support her doing! These are Mafia tatics!

 

[Ken Harbart]

Just where the hell is Ritchie Luna in this anyway? Oops, maybe this is too close to home for Ritchie and his self interests and he just doesn't want to step on that Bob Clark toe.

Well, if you get down off your high horse and pull your head out of your ***, you'd know. However, since you're nothing more than an ignorant little troll, perhaps you'll never figure it out for yourself.