Kingsnake problem, anyone else had this problem with classified account?

[W.Wedeking]

Savannah,
How were you notified that your account was cancelled? Did you email anyone at Kingsnake and ask why?

 

[Seamus Haley]

I've made my feelings about Kingsnake pretty clear, albeit for different reasons...

One thing though... which can be taken however the reader chooses...

IF I remember correctly... Adam had cancelled the card/checking account/debit/whatever that he had used to pay for the Kingsnake classified account. Jeff's email stated that Adam's refund would be issued in the same manner it had been paid... which would generaly mean crediting the card/account that had been used to set the classified account up...

On the one hand, Adam did inform Jeff that the account had been terminated and requested a refund via a different method. If Jeff had been intent on actually refunding the money, it would have been a very simple matter to do so.

On the other, KS's agreement when you set up an account states in it's text the manner in which refunds will be given and it's not Jeff's fault that Adam cancelled his account.

I figured this was worth mentioning because... it's unknown if Jeff even tried to issue a refund or not. It may have never been sent, it may have been bounced off an inactive card/account and no further attempt was made.

 

[WebSlave]

In response to KJ's query:

Please show me anywhere at all that I have stated that PROOF is necessary to post on the BOI. Anyone at all able to do that?

Matter of fact, it wasn't that long ago that I addressed this very same issue and stated plainly that proof is not required here at all. If YOU require proof, then fine, you may request that from the poster of the message. But lack of provided proof is certainly no grounds to remove a thread or a message from the BOI.

I named this forum The Board Of Inquiry for a very good reason. This is NOT a judge and jury environment. And it cannot be, simply because there is way too much opportunity for people to post anonymously, even providing names which may or may not be real. FACTS are requested, but only as evidence of your establishing credibility with what you are stating. FULL NAMES are required, with the intent of assigning ownership to those facts. If someone requires proof in order to believe your facts, then it is at your discretion whether or not you wish to provide them. Everything else should be taken with a big grain of salt and a healthy dose of skepticism. But NOT to the point that a person is harrassed for not complying for your request for proof.

Belief is optional here when facts are presented. The BOI is provided as a means for people to state issues of concern, and it is up to them to provide the means for credibility to be established. It is also to the benefit of the readers to consider what credibility may exist in what anyone states here, if they are reading a thread about a person or business with the intention of doing business with them. People will post both good and bad things about anyone, sometimes with their own motives in mind. Unfortunately, this message board software does not come with it's own BS-O-Meter in place. You have to use your own that came with that lump above your shoulders that your hat sets on.

There is a lot of leeway in how and what can be posted here. The rules are in place to help (1) establish the identity of the person making the post, (2) assist in establishing credibility as needed, and (3) keep all discussions on a level palatable to a mature adult audience intent on learning something of value from the words written here.

Opinions of non-involved parties are also invited, much to the dismay of some people, but nonetheless something I feel is important to provide. Peer pressure is a powerful tool, yet is certainly a blade that is sharpened on both sides, which many people have learned after the fact. A discussion will certainly now always go in the direction that you had intended and desired.

Now, why does this thread remain here? Why, because I see no reason at this point to move it elsewhere. Someone has posted a query concerning a classified account, which implies that money has changed hands, and this could be an issue where a simple inquiry has been made to be considered as fair game for the "board" that constitutes the BOI.

I believe this is a legitimate issue, and someone obviously is searching for information to support an issue they are involved in.

Quite frankly, and probably rather relevant, I could post my own experiences with Jeff Barringer and kingsnake.com here, but since this is pretty much spelled out in great detail in threads in the Web Watch forum on this site, I see no need to repeat myself in this thread.

So all in all, this thread has not violated any of the rules I have set up, and as such, I believe I would catch much more grief by deleting or moving it then I would by allowing it to remain. But push come to shove, I didn't make the rules for myself to follow anyway. Call it executive privilege if you want, but I will consider all applications of any rule here as being optional and on a case by case basis at my discretion. The topmost criteria for me to consider is "is the information portrayed in this thread or post of some benefit to a person reading it?" Regardless of who is the target of the inquiry.

 

[KelliH]

I want to say right off the bat here that I enjoy Fauna Classifieds immensely, especially the BOI and I think Rich has done a fantastic job with the site and that it has come a long way. It is certainly a valuable resource to the herp industry at times and also makes for some extremely enjoyable and interesting reads.

That being said, I have had an ad deleted from kingsnake.com. It was because I posted "Animals Available at the DFW Show" as the header and then inside posted what I would have available at the show and when and where the show was. I did receive an email from kingsnake stating why they deleted it, which is because it violates their TOS. Actually i sort of knew it was a violation, but I had seen others post similar ads so I figured I would go ahead and post and see what happened. Well, it got deleted. Was I pissed? For about half a minute, yeah. But I knew I was wrong for posting the ad the way I did, and so what if others do it and get away with it, I got busted, that's my crappy luck!

I APPRECIATE Jeff Barringer and what he provides to us via kingsnake.com. We make lots of money every year as a result of ads posted on his site. I think the cost to post there is very reasonable (even though I always bitch when the rates go up!). In fact, I will go as far as to say that if there was no kingsnake.com H.I.S.S. would not exist. It is pretty much impossible for us to attend any of the larger, out of state shows (kids and job make it so), so we sell the majority of our animals on kingsnake.

I feel like there must be a reason that Savanah has had her posting privileges removed, I just don't believe that it happened for no reason. Also, something to remember is this: Jeff rarely does any of the day to day website stuff now, he has a staff that takes care of most of it so he may not even know about this particular issue.

Anyway, you guys can think I am kissing Jeff's ass if you want to, that's fine, I don't care. I do get irritated at some of the policy changes, price changes, whatever but I still have to say I appreciate the site and enjoy posting there.

By the way, I did see another ad similar in wording to mine in the classified section on kingsnake a couple of days ago, and it was posted by a fairly big name, however it was deleted within a couple of hours. Just thought I would throw that in. Thanks for listening.

 

[Adam Block]

You know what we've established? This:

J-walking, against the law, do we all do it? YES! Can we be taken to jail for it? Yes! Would that be fair? NO but it's the law!

Seatbelts, are they the law? YES! Same applys to this as the above.

Kingsnake is Jeff's site and he can make and apply his laws where, when and to whom he sees fit. END OF STORY!

If you don't like it, don't support him!

What I find funny here is what Jeff doesn't know. The number of people that won't sponcer a forum, have not renewed their account and have been kicked off would total $10,000's a year for him. This is money Jeff doesn't have to miss cause he don't know what he'd have if he were just a kinder and more fair person.

Folks, do you think reptiles is anything? Money wise, it's a drop in the bucket! Think of Dogs, Cats, Fish and the other animals. I know first hand those site would make him 100x what kingsnake does, why do you think he's launched them? However, his reputation with kingsnake has KILLED that for him. He doesn't have a hold on those markets and WILL NEVER get it because nobody will support him there seeing and knowing his poor judgement with KS.

Jeff saw KS as a chance to bust into the other markets. He lets accounts post on the other site for the same cost of a membership to bring traffic, the same traffic that his forums brought to KS. Just think, once the Dog site gets huge, he then charges for those accounts, they're no longer included with KS and so on and so on. However, people like me, KJ, Rich and the others who spend HOURS helping and talking to people in the forums will never be there to bring the other sites traffic, cause Jeff has poor ethics and forgot who got KS to where it is.

Oh well, like I always say, him having to live his own life is punishment enough for me

 

[Roger Jolly]

Please check out this quote from KelliH:

In fact, I will go as far as to say that if there was no kingsnake.com H.I.S.S. would not exist.

I knew someone would post something like this. And it is going to prove the point I am trying to drive home here. Since you posted that, Kelli, let me ask you directly.

First, let us make some assumptions and clarifications:

(a) Jeffie knows the power he holds over peoples businesses.
(b) You yourself have stated that without kingsnake.com, your business would not exist. We can assume that others are in the same boat.
(c) It is well known that Jeffie will drop an account for no other reason than he disagrees with the person who has the account.
(d) We also know that it doesn't necessarily take a violation of his TOS for this to happen either.

Now let us extrapolate and speculate a bit (all my opinions, of course):

(a) Unless you want your business to fold, you have no other choice but to turn a blind eye to any wrong doing Jeffie may do in this business. To do otherwise, and post about it in public, runs you the risk of being dropped from kingsnake.com.
(b) If Jeffie wields this power in a spiteful and malicious manner (meaning doing so in a capricious and emotional manner, mostly out of anger), he is probably doing it hoping that his actions will do harm, perhaps terminally, to the persons business he drops the account of.
(c) There is reasonable evidence, even on this site alone, that such actions have been done enough times to indicate a pattern of premeditated attempts to harm other people.
(d) Such actions, and the resulting damage, can certainly be no less reprehensible then anything any bad guy has been brutally called to the carpet on within the BOI. For instance, is trying to destroy someones business by banning them from their primary avenue for their livelihood any less reprehensible than knowingly sending someone an animal infected with a lethal infectious disease?

Kelli, under those circumstances, if such evidence was overwhelming in supporting my above statements, would you chose to ignore them in order to save your business?

Let's take a couple of quotes from Jerry Tresser, which I believe are pretty much straightforward in describing what I see as the general mentality and ethical composition of many of the people passing judgements on the BOI:

I will agree with you that ethics have nothing to do with money or business, but I have always found it easier to resolve the problem from a business vantage, and keep the ethics for the philosphers.

If it means my survival or yours, or the loss of my business or yours, well ......I think you know the answer.

Pretty much sums it up, doesn't it? As long as someone is helping to line your pockets with moola, then he is a sacred cow here. It will only be the people that are on the block that you have no financial involvement or incentive with, either present or future, that will get an honest assessment of their business practices.

It is perfectly fair game for you (collectively) to jump all the hell over Gilbert Thompson because, heck, he is probably not going to have anything you want anyway. But if Jeff Barringer's actions are questioned, well hot damn, you just might want to stay on his good side, so you WILL NOT SAY A DARNED THING AGAINST HIM.

Until you can truthfully call a spade a spade, and be completely unbiased about your opinions about everyone, regardless of who it is, you make the BOI nothing more than a two bit soap opera, with all of you actors trying hard to get your best profile towards the camera.

 

[BrianB]

*PLONK!*

 

[KelliH]

Ok Mr. Jolly, I have no problem answering your questions. But first, let me ask you a few, and make a few observations, because I am not aware of some of these things you spek of. First off, you stated:

Jeffie knows the power he holds over peoples businesses.

No, Jeff holds no power over our business, I said that without kingsnake.com there would be no H.I.S.S. That is nothing less than the truth! I know it is true. Would you prefer that I get on here and LIE about that?

You yourself have stated that without kingsnake.com, your business would not exist. We can assume that others are in the same boat.

Yes, I did say that, as I stated above, it is the honest truth and I am not naive enough to think otherwise. Yes, there are probably many other business owners that feel the same but it is not my place to say so. I stated that because at the time (1998) when I became involved in H.I.S.S., kingnsnake was the only game in town, and yes, without that service I doubt very much we could have sold much AT THAT TIME.

It is well known that Jeffie will drop an account for no other reason than he disagrees with the person who has the account.

No, sorry, I don't know about that. Maybe I am not paying enough attention (it happens LOL) . Who has had their kingsnake account deleted for NO REASON at all?

We also know that it doesn't necessarily take a violation of his TOS for this to happen either.

Again, as I said above, please tell me specifically who you are speaking of because I am unaware of them.

Unless you want your business to fold, you have no other choice but to turn a blind eye to any wrong doing Jeffie may do in this business. To do otherwise, and post about it in public, runs you the risk of being dropped from kingsnake.com.

Whatever, if Jeff Barringer was doing something horrible or whatever I would have no problem talking about it or asking him about it. What terrible wrong has he done, anyway?

There is reasonable evidence, even on this site alone, that such actions have been done enough times to indicate a pattern of premeditated attempts to harm other people.

WHO??

For instance, is trying to destroy someones business by banning them from their primary avenue for their livelihood any less reprehensible than knowingly sending someone an animal infected with a lethal infectious disease?

That's like comparing cantelopes to apples or something! Hell yes, I feel that banning someone is MUCH less worse than sending someone a diseased animal! There are other avenues to advertise your animals, like Fauna Classifieds! I think you are stretching things just a bit with that one.

Kelli, under those circumstances, if such evidence was overwhelming in supporting my above statements, would you chose to ignore them in order to save your business?

SHOW me the evidence, please. I don't make decisions without all the facts at my disposal.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Wilomn]

Yo Jolly, did I miss a thread somewhere that had someone saying what a great guy jeff is? Is there any particular reason that you ASSume that because YOU DON'T know what each and everyone of us think about him that we condone what he, and this is not proven as he has staff, may or may not have done?

If you wish to conitinue in this vien please post some facts or go back to your toe sucking and tell him, or whoever else needs to know, that it didn't work, no one rose to the bait. If you've got facts you'll see that many who have accounts over there will say, once proven, that he is in the wrong. But without those facts, not suppositions or ASSumptions or extrapolations, there is no reason for anyone to rise to the bait you are trolling with here.

Wes Pollock

 

[Roger Jolly]

Wow!! Memories are so very short around here.

Kelli, according to your profile, you have been around here since February of 2002. Did you miss all of the threads and messages the webslave posted when he first got this site canned from kingsnake and then his own SERPENCO site? Did that somehow escape your notice? Here, let me help you out a bit.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16135

I've only been a casual observer here, but even I picked up on that one. Notice the parts about not only did Jeffie neglect to send a renewal for webslaves SERPENCO account, but no one can now even type in SERPENCO into any of the forums. But wait, it gets better! You can not even type in a whole list of domain names owned by the webslave. And why? Well, if you will take the time to read through all of the associated threads, this all came about simply because webslave refused to delete a thread on the BOI posted by Adam Block. There was no violation of any TOS on kingsnake.com. None. Nada. Zip. Nyet. If you don't define such an action as being spiteful and malicious, please, tell me what you would call it.

I have not read kingsnakes TOS policy recently, but even now, does it say you can get banned for something you do on your own site?

I believe there are other threads even going back into the very first original BOI where people got their accounts dropped simply because they disagreed with Jeffie and tried to engage him in a discussion about it. Sorry, but I just don't care to go dig those links up for you, but they are there for you to find yourself. Yes, maybe some of them did violate a minor TOS, but is that sufficient grounds for Jeffie to punish them by trying to destroy their business by cutting them off from what may likely be their major source of income?

Lordy, how many people got their posting account yanked on the forums simply because they expressed their opinions about certain other people getting banned? Yeah, that stuff is all gone from kingsnake, so sorry I don't have the proof to present to you, but quite a few of those incidents are readily available on this site as well. But I guess everyone's memories are on the short side about this issue as well, aren't they?

Maybe I do need to become a regular on this site. I can see where a lot of you need to have some things that are painfully obvious to me spelled out and explained to you all. I am sure I will make lots of friends here by doing that. LOL LOL

Oh, and Wes, please stop trying to prove your signature line with every post you make. You aren't a newbie here either, so maybe you should do something about that attention deficit you suffer. If you consider trying to make you take a long hard look at yourself as being trolling, then so be it. But as per your request, there, I have stated a fact. Ball is in your court.

By the way, just why hasn't the originator of this thread posted any further information about their particular issue? Wes, I didn't hear your claim of trolling expressed then, now did I? That didn't happen until I started hitting close to home with my remarks, I guess.

Oh, and for further consideration, how many other sites have been banned from even being mentioned on the forums on kingsnake? Sure, it's Jeffies right (I guess, I'm not certain if legal issues are involved), but are we talking about "rights" or "ethics" here? WHY were they banned? Does restraint of competition ring any bells around here? In my opinion, Jeffie wants to stay on top by stepping heavily on any site that he feels has the potential to become his competition. This is the sort of person you want to aid and abet with your money? Well, as long as he is earning you money, I guess that is OK, isn't it? I mean, business is business. Why rock the boat just over this little ethics issue Jeffie seems to suffer from? It's just not worth it, now is it?

Believe me, I do understand your perspective. Not sure I agree with it, though. And I do believe my reasons are plainly stated earlier in this thread.

 

[Bob Clark]

Kingsnake.com is Jeff Barringer's business and he can run it as he sees fit. He is under no obligation to give this person an advertising account. I'm sure he doesn't know about Savannah's association with fellow Arizonan Jeffery Charles Miller but if it were my site I would not assist them in legitimizing themselves through my business. Miller is a known animal sumggler and thief. He's recently been released from prison after serving time for smuggling wildlife. Morph Specialties has recently been offering dwarf Burmese pythons imported from the wife of Anson Wong in Malaysia. Wong was convicted in the same smuggling scheme as Miller and is still serving time.

Miller is responsible for the 1994 theft of my albino ball python project and has been ordered by the court to pay $2.44 million in actual and punitive damages. He has made no effort to pay. Miller's accomplice is currently serving time and has been ordered to pay me $500/mo. for 10 years following his release. You can see more information on this on my website at www.bobclark.com

I'm fairly certain that Savannah is NOT a smuggler or thief but Miller can no longer legally import animals and because of his reputation cannot sell them either.

 

[E2MacPets]

Interesting... there was just a good guy post on Savannah here a few days ago. Always upsetting to see the realities behind the scenes.

As for KS... I count one of the forum moderators as a friend and have spoken on many occassions with other mods so I am probably not the most impartial speaker. There are a lot of good and bad issues associated with both KS and with Fauna, but both serve purposes and I hope they both remain strong factors in the hobby.

 

[Adam Block]

Bob, I'd just like to take a second to be a little more clear about my post earlier. I know nobody else will touch it with a ten foot pole and I'm sure many would like to hear your take in it. I would like to say you've been a very easy person to do business with. I've been happy with the animals I've gotten from you, you've always done what you said and shipped when you said.

My comments was only because among herp people it is well known you have some troubles with mites in your collection, the animals I got had them and many other people have commented on how their animals came with mites as well.

I know you don't produce every animal you sell and the issue with mites may just be hard to control because of that, it may even be under control now.

If somebody asked me about you I would tell them in a heartbeat to do business with you. I would have no issue with buying from you again, I would in the future just be 100% sure to treat for mites when I got the snakes and not trust that because you're a big breeder you collection is parasite free.

 

[KelliH]

Mr. Jolly-

Yep, you are correct, I have been a member of this site since February of 2002, actually a lot longer than that as I was a member of the original BOI as well. And yes, I have read all the threads about kingsnake.com etc. and you know what? I feel that Jeff has a right not to renew Rich's account or anyone elses account. Just like Rich had a right to ban Neil Gubitz and Adam Block. I don't see Neil's Tampa Snake Pit banner rotating on this website anymore.

Kingsnake.com is Jeff's site, and I would bet that he does not want competing classifieds sites (such as Fauna Classifieds, wantapet,net etc.) or their owners advertising on his site. It is a business decision made by Jeff and that is his right to do so.

There is a ton of stuff that goes on behind the scenes that we as casual observers have no idea about. JeffB has a lot of balls he is juggling right now and I know for a fact that he had no earthly idea that kingsnake would become what it is today. It all boils down to the fact that he owns the site, it is his to do what he wants to with, if you don't like it then don't visit it. I happen to appreciate greatly what kingsnake offers us, and you know what? I post ads there, I post in the forums there and I do my best to follow the rules and respect the rules there. Do I always agree with them? Well, no, but I respect them.

Those are my feelings about this. And, like Mr. Jolly brought up before, I would like to know what the circumstances of the origininator of this thread being deprived of their posting rights were. Perhaps hearing from her again would shed some light here.

 

[Darin Chappell]

Mr. Jolly,

Perhaps you did not intend to paint all of us BOI members with such a broad brush, but I was one of the earlier ones banned from KS. I was banned, because I upset one of the moderators by pointing out some of the hypocritical things I saw going on there on KS at the time. In fact, more than one person was banned from KS simply for asking why I had been banned, so I think I have a good handle on how things were "progressing" over there. If you doubt my sincerity concerning my opposition to the past practices of Mr. Barringer, feel free to do a search on this site, or ask anyone who knows me, Rich Z. included.

Please refrain from assuming that everyone (or anyone, for that matter) falls into the neat little package you've created for us all in your mind. I think you'll find that there are nearly as many differing opinions regarding KS, JeffB, Rich, the BOI, and the interaction of all four, as there are individual members here.

I will resist the urge to once again go off about professed lurkers being smug about their lurking status, posting here only long enough to tell us how we're doing everything wrongly ...

 

[Wilomn]

You know, it seems I missed another one of those meeting where a new Guidence Counselor was appointed. Unless I am way off here, very possible as I have been before and doubtlessly will be again but, is it not an OPTION to use ks? I'm pretty sure that you can still make money and sell your animals without it. In fact as a very small time breeder I sell as many without ks as I do with it. If I had more stuff for sale I'm sure that would be different but, for now it isn't.

jolly, why do you have such a nut for us here at Fauna? What makes you the know it all and dispencer of all knowledge on how and why and where we should conduct our business? Just who are YOU to tell me anything? You lurk, you troll, you spout, you make lots of noise and say little of value. I'm still looking for the one FACT you stated in your earlier post to me.

If you have an opinion to offer, please feel free to do so but, I've got a mom and if I'm doing something wrong she's really the only one I think has the right to TELL me what to do about it. You, loudmouth that you are, have no right to do so at all.

Do you produce anything? Do you sell anything? How do YOU get your business? Is that jeff's big toe garbling your words so bad that I am having a hard time making sense out of them? Just what is it that makes you SOOOOOOO much better than anyone else here? Who exactly appointed you to your exalted position? Does your head fit through normal size doors or do you have to get them widened to fit through?

Seems that you are shaping to be another flash in the pan.

Wes Pollock

 

[Sasheena]

Well someone posted and said that there is a smorgasborg of different opinions about KS here on Fauna. I'd like to throw in mine.

I think that if it wasn't for Kingsnake.com I wouldn't have ever gotten into snakes. Now my hubby might feel, from time to time, that that would have been a GOOD thing, but overall, it's been a wonderful two years since I got my first snake. I have Kingsnake to thank for that, and I still go there, still post.

Having said that, I do have a few frustrations and a lower opinion of kingsnake than when I first started. I felt it was childish to [bleep] names out of existance on posts. I felt that until that situation was changed, I would never respect KS as a mature business based in the USA where freedom of speech is one of the biggest and held-most-dear freedoms we enjoy. But I do understand the RIGHT to choose what happens on YOUR site.

My biggest problem with KS is that if you use their email feature and send someone an email who has posted on a forum, you can't even mention serpenco or other things in the PRIVATE EMAIL. I feel that is going a bit too far. However, again, this is a private site, and he isn't obligated to follow the rules that I myself consider as important.

I came to Fauna, and to cornsnakes.com when I realized there was a ban. Now I have three great sites. I'm blessed!

 

[WebSlave]

For obvious reasons, I am disinclined to have very much involvement with this thread. But in some respects it is much like a case of a deja vu slow motion train wreck I am viewing.

But I find it necessary to correct what may, perhaps, be a misunderstanding.

Just like Rich had a right to ban Neil Gubitz and Adam Block. I don't see Neil's Tampa Snake Pit banner rotating on this website anymore.

Kelli, both Neil and Adam were banned for what they did on THIS site. Nothing more, nothing less. What they do elsewhere is none of my business nor any grounds for my involvement or judging them as being welcomed members here. Matter of fact, even being a patently verifiable bad guy is not grounds to be banned from FaunaClassifieds. The only criteria I consider as being relevant is how they ACT while they are here.

My sites, on the other hand, were banned from ks for events that took place outside of JeffB's site and ONLY upon and within my own sites.

I am probably part of a small minority, but I do believe this is an important distinction.

FWIW

And I, also, would like to have Savannah post some details of what this thread was originally posted for. Not that it is required, but I do believe it would be courteous to do so.

BTW, I didn't know about that ban extending to emails within ks. I have to admit that this is right cute of JeffB.

 

[KJUN]

> I am probably part of a small minority, but I do believe this is an important distinction.

I doubt if that is a small minority. At least, I hope most people agree with your distinction at least on some level. I agree with that statement.

> BTW, I didn't know about that ban extending to emails within ks.

The emails and posts probably just share the same database on censored words so that they get [bleeped] no matter what/where/how/when. It might be just the way the software is set up and not worth the trouble to re-write even if someone wanted to make that distinction. Let's not make things seem more intentionally evil than they already seem to some.

I wish the kingsnake classifieds were HEAVILY watched and ALL TOS infractions removed, too. I don't like seeing people do things I don't because I try to follow the rules. I understand the limits of staff time, though. Some people obviously don't. Still upsets me, though.

All said and done, just remember that before kingsnake.com, all we had was ACME Pets....lol. Thank all goodness for the good things that Jeff has done.

 

[E2MacPets]

In order to see KS classifieds policed better, you need to police it yourself. Report posts, they will be removed if they violate the TOS. I assure you.