Kingsnake problem, anyone else had this problem with classified account?

[Adam Block]

KS is a Jeff's private business.

Yes, that however does not mean you don't have to follow the laws.

If you look at:

http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/

Then look into the cases that have been filed and settled you will see that Jeff is walking some very very fine lines with his actions. Mainly based on the fact the he makes up 95% of the online reptile hits, making him hands down the top dog. By comparison (from a percentage standpoint) even more so then the Microsoft OS .

If you also look into the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (or RICO) act you will see that based on the cases that have been brought to court and won Jeff is again walking/crossing a very fine line and while the RICO act was meant bring down the Mafia it has since become common in civil claims.

It allows civil claims to be brought by any person injured in their business or property by reason of a RICO violation. It can be applied to individuals, businesses, political protest groups, and terrorist organizations.

With that said, while it is Jeff's business there are some strong facts to show his cancellation of peoples accounts resulting in hardship and loss of business has been done with malice or less then valid reasons as his TOS are not enforced evenly and as such somebody WILL bite Jeff in the arse hard one day via our fine judicial system.

My feeling is that he is breaking laws and if not breaking them skirting them closely enough that a good lawyer could make a strong enough case for a ruling against Jeff and Kingsnake.

These are my feelings and while they apply to nothing in my life I would be more then happy to send anybody interested in the right directions.

 

[dwedeking]

Mainly based on the fact the he makes up 95% of the online reptile hits

Do you have proof of this or is this just a "feeling" you have? Proof means hard numbers (ie number of searches on reptile related terms, unique visitors that KS has, etc). I agree that KS pulls a large percentage and probably the largest percentage for a single site but there are a lot of sites out there that pull a large number of visitors.

I frankly do not feel that KS is the only place to pull sales and any business that bases itself on a single entity (see other various threads on shows lately, if your only doing shows then your headed for disaster as well) other than itself is setting itself up for failure.

MS has way more market penetration than anyone in the reptile industry.

 

[Adam Block]

Well, Savannah's post shows some pretty strong backing for a RICO act violation. Forget about the antitrust issues and the mites.

That post from Savannah is about the strongest post I've seen on the BOI and I think both Jeff Barringer and Bob have SOME MAJOR explaining to do.

 

[MikeWilbanks]

First let me say, Bob is a good friend of mine. I have known about the connection of Savannah with Jeff Miller since a few weeks ago when all this started. There was never any attempt to "go public" with any of this, only an attempt to gather information about Jeff Miller and his resurfacing in the reptile world. Savannah denied that she even knew who Jeff Miller was. So now we know that Savannah is an admitted liar.

Let's all think logically about this issue. We have seen the emails. It proves that Bob tried several times to contact Savannah privately. If this was an attempt to hurt "competition", as if Savannah is competition to anyone, why would Bob attempt to contact her privately? Why wouldn't he come here first? This all started several weeks ago. Bob never came here with any of this. So think for a minute, the argument that this is just made up information to hurt the competition, doesn't make sense. He never posted on a forum until Savannah posted.

It is convient for Savannah and her aliases and cronies to try to change the subject and say that this is a competition thing. If she was so concerned about the success of her business, why involve a felon and notorious animal smuggler? I would never have a convicted animal smuggler take 15K worth of animals to the airport for me. What made her think that she could trust a felony animal smuggler with $15,000.00 worth of animals unless they were his too?


How many of you have connections in Maylasia? They are hard to get. Jeff Miller has them. How did this young girl from Arizona get them?

 

[Adam Block]

Holly cow, I thought the one post wonders only came to save me, now Bob has them in his corner too.

I have known about the connection of Savannah with Jeff Miller since a few weeks ago when all this started.

Connection? You mean them being friends? You're implying something more so do you have and proof there is more?

There was never any attempt to "go public" with any of this, only an attempt to gather information about Jeff Miller and his resurfacing in the reptile world.

Are you crazy? I see a post from Bob saying they knew each other, what motivation is there behind that? I know Naomi Campbell but that doesn't make me a pouty brat!

Savannah denied that she even knew who Jeff Miller was. So now we know that Savannah is an admitted liar.

Who cares? If I were friends with Jeff I wouldn't tell people. Not wanting somebody to know something is far from being a liar! Very far from it, I suggest you rethink what you're saying as I think you're making this look worse not better.

 

[Bob Clark]

Read the emails. I stand by what I"ve said.

Let's settle one think right now. This has nothing to due with competition or jealosy. Bing Shee agreed to sell animals to me. Before Savannah got her animals they were offered to me from Europe as well. Savannah thinks this is how I deal with competition. Believe me I deal with competition by breeding more and better animals than my competition, being an effective salesman and offering better customer service. I've been doing this successfully for 30 years.

This thing might have taken a different course if Savannah had been truthful and fothcoming in the beginning. Instead she lied to me. Why? Why did she want to hide her relationship with Miller? She told me she didn't even know who he was.

I have repeatedly stated that I have no interest in Savannah herself, only her connecton to Miller. She's gone to some effort to hide it.

Why would Savannah, an innocent, hardworking businesswoman give 3 calico retics valued at $15K to Jeff Miller, liar, thief and convicted felon?

 

[MikeWilbanks]

Holly cow, I thought the one post wonders only came to save me, now Bob has them in his corner too.

I make no apologies that I don't post often. I am busy breeding snakes, caring for them and offering service to my customers. I thought that I had something to offer here so I did. Why are you attacking me Adam, I have never done anything to you?

Not wanting somebody to know something is far from being a liar! Very far from it, I suggest you rethink what you're saying as I think you're making this look worse not better.

Bob asked her directly about Jeff Miller, Savannah told him that she didn't even know who that was. She now admits that was a lie. Hence the statement that she is an admitted liar.

 

[LLaBGNik]

"I have repeatedly stated that I have no interest in Savannah herself, only her connecton to Miller. She's gone to some effort to hide it."


You have no right at all to know the details of her life,You act as if you have the right to know how she runs her business and who she associates with in her PERSONAL life.She can be friends with and ask favors from anyone she wants.

If you would read her recent post you would see she told the world she knows miller,She already explained why she told you she said she didn't.I wouldnt have either in her situation.

If you were offered these burms before them,Then why didnt you buy them right then?Who would give up the offer for these and not lay down the cash right there and then..nobody.So i doubt that happened.

Connections in Malysia are not as big of a deal as you are making it out to seem.

And as far i know,Savannah didnt mention ANYTHING about bob but somehow..just somehow Bob seemed to post his FIRST post in this thread without Savannah even mentioning his name..hmmmmmmmm

And this BS about "Admitted liar"please..The girl was probally scarred out of her wits from all the threats to ruin her repuation and business.A honest person Admits to their mistakes,A LIAR..just keeps lying

 

[Bob Clark]

Let's distill this controversy to the important facts:

Savannah has a relationship with Jeff Miller that she tried to hide.

Jeff Miller ships under the name of "Savannah's" company some animals that Savannah offered for sale.

Jeff Miller no longer has an import license and can't sell animals because of his soiled reputation.

Savannah, Jeff's neighbor, suddenly appears on the scene after Jeff's release from prison after serving time for a federal reptile smuggling conviction. She's offering animals imported from Anson Wong's company. Anson Wong is still serving time for his part in the smuggling scheme.


Any clearer?

 

[Hues1]

I can see this getting really ugly......but I'm going to raise some points to think about as I have received a phone call from Josh ( Josh Burm Guy) who is a friend of Savannahs and who is someone that I got the impression she confided in, and I've also spoken with Bob.

These are my own personal observations.....

This is how I see Bob's point of view, Jeffery Miller robbed him of those Albino Ball Pythons back in 1994, Jeffrey Miller was sued and Bob was awarded damages in excess of $2 million dollars.

Jeffrey Miller is now out of Jail but has not made any attempts to pay back the damages.

Morph Specialties, opens its doors right around the time Jeffrey Miller is out of Jail.....

Savannah is 18 years old, this really doesnt give her a whole lot of time to have been able to build up the rapport, trust, and "reptile experience" in order to go after the "morphs" that spring up from overseas unless of course she had a boat load of money....but at her young age, I'm a little hesitant to see how that would be possible. Sorry for my ignorance, but I did not know Morph Specialties even existed til today and even worse that Savannah was in the Reptile trade prior to today.

Even if the money wasnt a issue, dealers from overseas dont just sell Morphs to anyone.

Savannah told Bob that she didnt know who Jeffrey Miller was, well she lied...however you want to look at it.

If she was trying to hide the fact that she did know Jeffrey Miller, then she must have also known why Bob asked her about Jeffrey Miller. The answer is........because technically Bob can go after anything and everything that is of value from Jeffrey Miller, Jeff Miller knows this too.

Bob was in no way trying to harass, intimidate, or blackmail Savannah from the very start as she has portrayed it,although it turned out that way because he was lied to and followed his instincts which told him that she did know Jeff Miller and the possibilities of these animals being owned or even co-owned by Miller were relatively good. And if Miller did own them.....guess what... Bob can go get them as partial re-imbursement for the damages awarded him.

The only fault I see with Bob is that he was very persistent about getting to the truth behind Savannah/Miller and his emotions got the better of him. But wouldnt you if this guy ripped you off ?

I have not spoken to Savannah, there for I wont comment on her point of view. But I will say that in speaking with Josh.....I tried to keep an open mind. I didnt talk with him in great lengths...but everything that Savannah stated in the previous post was repetitive of what Josh told me. The only thing I am a little confused about is the fact that Josh called me from a Florida area code and number....yet his profile says he's in California. Nothing against you Josh...but honesty is the best policy from the get go.

So the motto of the story goes......Bob wanted the Retics and offered to purchase them, when Savannah kept dodging and lieing about the questions pertaining to Miller...his emotions got the better of him and he became very persistent at trying to find out the truth.

Savannah.......if everything you have said about just being a acquaintance of Millers is true....then why go through what you went through just to deceive Bob ?

Had you just been honest from the get go......I dont believe that it would've gotten this blown up.

All the man wanted was what could've been rightfully his if Miller did own these snakes, and by you lieing to him about it...you yourself added the fuel to the fire.

If someone ripped me off the way Miller ripped Bob off, you bet your ass I would be scouring the earth for any kind of info I can get pertaining to his whereabouts, personal and business dealings, financial status, or anything else I can use against him.

And if Savannah is everything she claims to be with saving up her money and getting into the reptile business...I applaud her every efforts and have just one final question........when and how old were you when you realized this is what you wanted to do for a living considering no one has ever just gotten into this business without first being a hobbyist and collector of some sort prior to being a dealer/broker/breeder and non the less a broker of HIGH END INVESTMENT QUALITY MORPHS ?

 

[KelliH]

Sure, I know Jeff, but that is it. He helps me out with some animals once in a while. He even dropped a shipment off a delta for me because I couldn’t get to the airport.

Savannah, the above statement tells me a lot about you, irregardless of all the other things that have been said. You hang out with a piece of poo such as Miller, a criminal, someone who was convicted of stealing snakes from someone, and you expect anybody to have an ounce of respect for you? You expect people in this business to take you seriously, while you are fraternizing with the scum of our hobby??

I hope like hell we can get to the bottom of all this.

 

[Rick Staub]

Since Morph Specialties is a corporation, doesn't that make its financial records a matter of public record? At the very least, the officers of this corporation are available to the public. Either way, it should be easy to prove or disprove the involvement of Jeff Miller with Savannah and Morph Specialties. A corporation does suggest that there are investors. I am not a lawyer, but wouldn't it be illegal as a corporation to direct funds to an outside partner without receiving some kind of service?

A good PI could probably discern all this fairly quickly.

Just for the record I am not taking sides, but view this situation as inconclusive and unlikely to be resolved based on what we know and has been shown here.

On the original issue for this thread, it would be nice to know why JeffB banned Savannah from KS, but unlikely that will ever be made public.

 

[Hues1]

You hang out with a piece of poo such as Miller, a criminal, someone who was convicted of stealing snakes from someone, and you expect anybody to have an ounce of respect for you? You expect people in this business to take you seriously, while you are fraternizing with the scum of our hobby??

Kelli....you go girl !

I agree.

 

[Adam Block]

Are Savannah's choice of friends on trial here? I know I didn't make the best choices at 18 and I don't think she is either but are here friends the issue?

My question is why would an 18 year old start a corp to sell herps? $10 says it's a Nevada corp at that!

I'm not saying this all adds up however. If Jeff was smart enough to to find an 18 year old that he could use as a front for himself, she owns the corp and he's not an officer of share holder then Bob is SOL!

If her company is a NV corp I think they allow barrer bonds. This would really mean the company and therfore snakes are owned by the person in possesion of the bonds. Not that it matters but it's easy to transfer!

In all honesty, I wouldn't have told Bob either! I talked to a guy in Phoenix, can't remember who to save my life but he told me he'd sold cages to Jeff in the past two months but he said outright he wouldn't tell anybody he'd done business with him.

I would like to see some emails from Bob to back up that he was first offered the snakes.

My thoughts are that I would be doing the same thing Bob is but that doesn't make any of it right.

As for Barringer and KS I think Savannah would have a good case as there's no reason for her account to be pulled that I know of other then Bob calling in a favor, some I would bet he did as I knwo I would have.

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

I have a question since we are talking about Savannah and her business. I e-mailed her about the Solid Yellow Chondro she had advertised a few weeks back and discussed the animal with her. In one of her e-mails she stated

Rob, on another note. We brought in some of the first chondros.

My question is how could Savannah have brought in some of the first Chondros when she was only a child when they were first imported into the US? Savannah would you like to shed some light on this? Also who is the WE? I have nothing against you nor your business at all but this confused me when you wrote it to me and now with all this other information I am even more confused. At that time I was not aware that you were only 18. And at 18 there is NO way you brought in some of the first Chondros and your business was not even around then.

Anyone that can answer this next one one please do. If memory serves me correctly didn't Jeff bring in some Chondros years back when he was involved with Importation before the robbery of Bob's animals?

 

[Classic Dum's]

Ok let me get this right!

He helps me out with some animals once in a while. He even dropped a shipment off a delta for me because I couldn't get to the airport.

She has a known thief and smuggler wandering in and out of her facility and shipping 15g’s worth of animals for her?? And some of you this doesn’t even bother in the slightest? Go figure. Does anyone remember all those raids that just recently went down in Ohio and what not, we all know 90% of it was bull[bleep]???? It’s a$$holes like this guy that make those raids look ligit and make a lot of these bans favorable to the general public. It’s a$$holes like this guy messing with and profiting from endangered species, that to the general public make us all look like a bunch of greedy wolves hell bent on wrecking the environment for our own profit. Once again to the general public making laws and regulations towards us favorable. So yes if this girl is buddy buddy with him and allows this guy into her facility she should be banished from the reptile community and shows and all web sites where she can find a place to advertise! So this whole issue over ksnake, GO JEFF B!!!!!!!!!

Now did anyone else pick up on this
Referring to her buddy Jeff Miller(known thief and sumggler)

He helps me out with some animals once in a while.

I do know Mrs. Wong. I do not know her husband Anson Wong

Know heres the interesting part shes buddies with Jeff, Deals with Wong(who just happens to be married to Anson who got busted with Jeff for smuggling animals) However claims she got Wongs contact info from some directory. Does this look rather odd to anyone else?

You think one must be in the business for a certain amount of time to be able to know someone? To answer the question, I got their numbers from a directory put out years ago by a company in Lodi California, great Valley Serpt.

Now that shes claimed to have gotten Wongs contact info from a directory, after admitting she was buddies with the guy he got caught in the scam with. I am left thinking of these two quotes.

I’m not a front to Miller…He even dropped a shipment off a delta for me because I couldn’t get to the airport.

 

[Thomas Jones]

I have done business with Bob once. All was great. I have been hearing different things. All this is hearsay.

I was told that Bob had a very bad virus in his collection. That killed off most of his animals. Including the blonde burmese. That is why i e-mailed you Bob asking about the blonde burmese. I know you have been busy but i have not recieved an e-mail back from on the blonde. I was told the animals you are selling is not you stock. I hope none of this is true.

Savanna.
You are young and naieve. If you knew Miller was a theif and a crook. Why even associate with him. You are just starting a new business just to have him take snakes to the airport put you at a great risk. He could of ran off with them. To even know him and it now be admitted that you know him puts you and your business under attack and under a closeful eye.
If you are doing businees with him more than likely you will be caught. Some of the business miller is doing is more than likely illegal. You will end up in prision being rapped but women and the male guards. Take time to think on all this. He is not worth the trouble.
I hope this gets worked out.

 

[Adam Block]

While I don't like to say this I agree with Jason and give him credit for using "a known thief" while having something to back it up

There are three things that don't sit right with me and I think Ritchie needs to come give us a hand.

1) She's friends with this guy and he has anything to do with her shipments.

2) She's an 18 year old female who decided to incorporate!

3) She was so quick to start making a case for the restraining order she filed on Bob. I've had people do MUCH worse to me and never gave a thought to doing that. The emails seemed to be setting him up for just what she did.

This all makes me think there is some Major coaching going on here.

My Corporation is in place to protect my family from any issues that may come up in my business life. What reason does an 18 year old have for owning one? There is no other reason I can think of but to either protect yourself in the event you're breaking laws or hide the real owner of a company!

I mean there are HUGE tax breaks but there is no real reason that an 18 year old wouldn't just start small with a local business or at most an LLC.

Savannah can you explain ANY of this at all?

1) Who did you incorporate through?

2) What State did you incorporate in and please don't say it just happend to be NV.

3) What is the date of incorporation?

4) What assets does the corp own other then the reptiles?

5) Any realestate or other companies?

I don't mean to dig into your business but you've decided to make this a public matter and because of that I feel without knowing the above people can't make an informed choice.

 

[ms_terese]

This is disturbing on many levels.

First of all, I personally know NONE of the people involved, so I am basing my opinion on their own words and verifiable public records.

Savanna, this must be terrifying for you. You are probably hearing alot of contradictory things, and being pulled in many directions. My instinct is that you were given a pretty good story from some people, and thought you had a neat little thing worked out, and it's starting to not turn out that way.

I'm sure that any professional affiliation with Jeff Miller will cost you dearly in this community. Yes, taking snakes to Delta for you constitutes a professional affiliation, especially since your business is incorporated. Jeff Barringer may be the first (if indeed this affiliation was related to your account cancellation) to sever any sort of business relationship with you, but I guarantee it won't be the last. People make determinations about their professional relationships all the time. There are businesses out there that I wouldn't come anywhere near. Everyone is that way. Reputations are hard to earn, and people guard them very carefully.

I can't help but think that there is more to your association with Jeff Miller than you are admitting. I also can't help but think that you were led into this like lambs to the slaughter.

Have you read through the court transcripts of the charges against Jeff Miller? Do you have a true comprehension of the magnitude of his actions? Do you realize how very damaging that theft was to Bob Clark? Do you understand why Bob Clark would be reacting to this situation as he is?

Savanna, losing your account with KS is the very least of your worries. Please, please, PLEASE take an objective look at your situation and think hard before continuing to do business while maintaining your affiliations. If you have a trusted friend, maybe someone a little older, that doesn't know any of the people involved, ask them to give an honest opinion, and present them with all the FACTS. I don't mean to say that young people can't make their own choices, but I have great respect for the wisdom that people who've been around the block possess.

I truly hope your future reptile endeavors turn out well for you. I also hope that Bob Clark gets what a court has awarded him. Jeff Miller will get what he deserves eventually......karma is a sweet thing.

 

[KJUN]

Well, Savannah's post shows some pretty strong backing for a RICO act violation. Forget about the antitrust issues and the mites.

That post from Savannah is about the strongest post I've seen on the BOI and I think both Jeff Barringer and Bob have SOME MAJOR explaining to do.

Is it just me or does this thread read like a set-up from the get-go aimed maybe more at Bob than at Jeff...or at least the opportunity was seized to make it that way? I'm not defending Bob because i don't know him. I don't deal in large snakes, so we just don't run in the same circles. I just think it looked like a set-up. Was that a Georgia judge that gave a restraining order on something like that....lol. It looks a little overboard to me!

Still, I can see it leaving Bob stuff to explain, but this thread is about Kingsnake's policy towards account users, right? Start a new thread on Bob if it is warranted (I don't know if it is and I don't care that much), but let's stick to kingsnake.com versus account holders.

As of yet, I see suspicion but no proof that the story about Bob and the account refusal are even related. Maybe they are - for a valid reason, I might ad - but just remember that there is NO PROOF that the two incidents are or aren't connected.

If, and I do say IF, she is connected with a bad guy found guilty in a court of law, isn't that reason enough for her to be refused an account? I did say IF. I think it would be. I'd be happy in that case.

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