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Lee Watson Swap Bust

K

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Ok, I don't know how many of you attend the Lee Watson sawp in Streamwood IL, but last sunday the Dept of Ag and IL Dept of Natural Resources had a sting operation of sorts and busted some people.

They walked in at about 11am and declared who they were and that all exits had an officer at them and anyone caught trying to leave would face criminal charges. They filed the public out the front first, checking everyone's stuff and then made the vendors stay until they were cleared to leave.

I was up front when it happened and I looked around and some people instantly turned white as sheets cos they knew they were in trouble  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

I was curious earlier that morning why so much white trash was walking around with very expensive digicamcorders, as it turns out they were all plain clothes officers. tee hee. I was just hacked off b/c I didn't get my three dollars worth for the admission and I really felt bad for the guys who travelled far and set up their stuff, only to lose money on the show.

If any vendors post here that were there, I am curious to what happened to some of the guys who had illegal stuff. Fill me in if you can.
 
At this point in time Bill, there is not much to tell. People have tickets and court dates. There will not be much happening until they get their appearances in front of a judge. I only deal with CB non native so I was cleared in 30 seconds. Others were not so lucky.

Many animals were seized by different agencies under different laws and jurisdictions. It was a mess. Most of the officers present could not identify most animals and were not even versed on the laws they were there to enforce. Lee and I spent several hours correcting them on what is and what is not an endangered species as well as arguing the Constitutional rights of those of us being detained against our will (and not even allowed to go to the bathroom for hours). I lost much valuable time and money driving from Detroit to Chicago and back to make no money.

To add to your info above, the Federal Food and Drug Administration was also present to enforce the 25 year old 4" turtle law which to my knowledge has never been enforced in that state. It is very selective enforcement. We will all be doing what we can to help support Lee as we have for a decade, but who knows what will happen long term because of this? A very similar incident at the Indianapolis show a couple years ago did permanent damage to that shows vendor roster and attendence.

I am not saying that I feel that people ticketed for breaking the law deserve a break. Whether right or wrong we should all follow the laws while trying to eliminate the bad ones through the appropriate channels. I will say this though, these agencies were in some cases creating laws as they went along that do not exist. They seized animals that they have no right to. With the exception of the head conservation officer and the state herpetologist, they could not tell the difference between my albino reticulated python and a red eared slider. My one simple complaint is this: IF YOU ARE GOING TO ENFORCE LAWS, KNOW WHAT THOSE LAWS ARE AND KNOW WHAT THE ANIMAL IS THAT THE LAW CONCERNS. Very simple and I think not asking too much. Evan Stahl <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>
 
I overheard someone saying that the dept of ag took a large albino burm from a guy that was standing outside of the building. He wasn't a vendor or anything,

In IL dept of ag will have you believe that its illegal to own a snake over 6 feet long. In reality that only applies to licensees and people who are in the retail of animals, ect. The private sector is just not allowed to own a 'dangerous' reptile. IL supreme court has determined that a snake 15 feet long is dangerous, so that animal could be taken, but anything below that length is actually not illegal to own by the private citizen.

Unless I was lied to by the head of the dept of natural resources last year, then that is the case. I hate the dept of ag.
 
They seized some baby Bearded Dragons saying that it was necessary to have an "aquaculture" license to sell them. For those of you who are wondering, yes that means breeding aquatic animals. What does that have to do with a desert agamid from Australia? Who knows? Evan Stahl
 
Evan,
       I agree with you completely!!  As alot of you know I am a police officer and I feel ignorance of the law is no excuse.  I also think that applies to police officers being ignorant to the laws they are enforceing.  That is a shame a dissapointing with proper training they would have known which way to go to get out of the way.
 I also spoke with Mr. Watson.  The funny thing is from what I gathered from him it was over a ploice officer selling a few $3 turtles.  I was also told the police officer (under cover) made the comment, "Well if I don't sell these I am going to take them home and flush them down the toilet."  Therefore, as they should alot of fellow herpers bought them.  
Even though I am police officer.  I think that is Entrapment to a certian degree and a ####ty thing to do.
That's my two cents anyway!!
Gilbert Thompson
 
If an undercover police officer actually said that he needed to sell those turtles or else he'd take them home to flush down the toilet, it's not entrapment to a certain degree, it is ENTRAPMENT!

Entrapment is when an officer says or does something that encourages a person to committ an act that they would not otherwise have done.  By that standard definition, the undercover officer in question entrapped the people who purchased those turtles, and they should not be fined or have any other ramifications brought upon them.  

I am ALL FOR proper policing of the herp industry (and all others, as well), but if THAT is the type of thing that is going on there in IL, not only should the pople involved be given a walk on anything for which they were cited, but the govt. officials involved owe Mr. Watson a HUGE appology.

Fat chance!

<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':angry:'>
 
The scenario you're discussing (flushing turtles) was actually from the previous arrest about 7 years ago.  Since that time, we have had no problems.  The bearded dragon ticket was issued for lack of an aquaculture permit, although we have a letter from Rodney W. Horner, Aquaculture Coordinator, stating that they are only interested in indigenous animals.  So if there is not a wild population of beardeds in IL, I guess we're all right without it.

Thanks a lot for all the support everybody's been giving us and we'll see you on October 5!  Same place for the last 11 years.
 
Lee, just exactly were these officials looking for ?  It seems unbelievable that they would enter a legal premise and then try to figure out what they felt should or should not be confiscated. What happens to the animals, and who burdens the responsibility of loss? This is frightning to say the least. I would attempt to peruse legal remedies by suing them personally. I dont know how far you would get, but if these individuals are making up these legal decisions as they go along, then I think they are going above and beyond what should be considered normal. VERY DEPRESSING. JERRY TRESSER <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':angry:'>
 
I must say this situation is very disturbing. The officials acted in a very unprofesional manner from what I gather. The officials should have showed up early before the show started and inspected the animals. But not interfere with law abiding vendors and disrupt their business.  If I were one of the people in that show that had all my "ducks in a row" and had all paperwork correct and they still did that, you better believe that the state or whomever it was would be receiveing notice my my attorney and I would gurantee I would pursue it to the fullest extent of the law. Here in Florida Wildlife officers come to the facility of dealers, importers and pet stores to inspect their animals. They do show up at local shows and inspect animals but they do it in a profesional manner. If there is a question on an animal and it's legality, they approach the owner in private, ask to remove the animal from the table and discuss the legality and ask for proof if needed on that animal.  They do not just walk in and shut the entire place down and start rampageing the entire show.  As the Promoter I would have my attorney look into the legality of what they did and how they did it.  it seems very illegal and if not illegal than very unprofesional.
 
Also I am all for if someone does not have the proper paperwork. i.e. license etc. then that person, company, entity should be fined and reprimanded, but the other law abiding people should not be punished at all.
 
Mr. Watson,
     Sorry about getting the two situations mixed up.  I hope I did not cause to much confusion.  Whatever, the circumstances I know you would not be involved in anything illegal.  You know that you have all of my support.
Thanks,
Gilbert Thompson
P.S.  Lee I would not mind making a phone call or two.  I can't promise anything but I will sure try.
 
Oh my god.  It's the attack of the killer Beardies.  Lock up the women and children folk and git ur guns boys.  We be goin DRAGON huntin.  

Now on to a more serious note.

I have absolutely no respect for law enforcement officer types.  Quite frankly the whole system is set up to steal your money.  Get a ticket pay a fine, get arrested pay a fine.  Its all money driven and its your money they want.  As far as I am concerned its the largest legal form of an organized crime syndicate.  Just short of the governmental systems that is.  

I was selected for federal jury duty and got called in for jury selection.  Before they do that they send you a card to fill out asking very specific questions about race and religion.  Both as far as I felt were none of their damm biz and has no bearing on justice.  So I put that as my answer.  Then they ask if there is any reason you feel you cant serve as a juror.  So I put that I feel the legal system is out for nothing but money and justice is just accidental at best.  

So after they call my number to come and appear for a duty.  They pull out that card and review it with you in front of the judge.  God I wish I had it on tape.  We went over why I put my answers down about race and religion.  As far as I am concerned it has no direct bearing on whether or not they committed the crime and how see the evidence presented to me.  And it doesn't.   So why ask it.  Looked to me they where trying to fix the jury to get the vote they wanted.  Hummmmmmmm.

When they saw my answer to the last question the judge got red right know.  In fact when I went on to explain that money is the driving cause of "justice" and how every lawyer has their hand out for it, they flipped.  Then I went into the citations for funds called ticketing. (speeding, that kind of stuff)  How the only thing they are interested in was stealing money, I mean collecting that fine for justice.  It would nock you flat when you see how much they steal annually from us.  Where does it go?  Hummm.  After all tax payers pay your salaries.  I do know first hand that Highway Patrol officers get commission of sorts based on the quantity of certain types of citations they write and win.  (i.e. DUI's)  

Well after it was all said and done, the defense wanted me for my assured not guilty vote, the prosecution was peed off and excused me, and the judge was dumb founded.  He event went as far as to thank me for the unusual overwhelming amount of honesty whether they liked it or not.

As for the local street cops, biggest bunch of thieves and hypocrites you ever wanted to meet.  Several of which I went to school with so I know first hand. Almost all of them locally I have partied with and call acquaintances.   Then the after hour parties I was invited to,  (beer and "SMOKES" confiscated from victims{suspects} in the interest of justice)  It's not bad enough that we pay their salaries with our tax money, but we have to put up with their lying and stealing too.   Ever heard of the Blue Wall or Blue Code???  It really exist, even when they are caught on tape beating a hand cuffed kid.  

You can bet that the only thing that will come of this "RAID" will be some fines to steal more of your money.  Sad but true.

This certainly doesnt reflect all of the law enforcement officers, but it represents well the ones I know of anyway.
 
Well Tim,
I'm glad to see that you don't respect me, Jim Hopkins, Gilbert Thompson, Alex Rahmings, and a host of other herpers. Thanks for the heads up and the bigoted reply.   <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':angry:'>
 
Tim, dont hold back <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

There are some flaws in our legal system, but as far as i know it is the best in the world.  Without it, i dont know how society would function.

Is the state providing propper conditions for these animals?  Will they be returned to the owners if it is found out that no laws were broken?  I have no problem with the animals being taken if laws were broken, but it sounds like the officers were not aware of the law.  Seems to be a pretty common problem.

I hope everything works out for the best, and please keep us posted.

Thanks
Justin Wilson
 
This whole thing has me seething.  I can't even find words to express what I'm thinking.  We all know that these confiscated animals will be stuffed into drawers or into plastic bags on evidence shelves.  I WISH I had been there and they took my dragons, or gave me a citation.  I would ram a lawsuit so far up their a$$e$ it would knock their eyes out.  Citation for bearded dragons?!?!  *splutter splutter*  Every day I am more in complete awe of how stupid and ignorant people are.  *crossing Illinois off list of acceptable states to live in*  Grrrr.
 
Ken
As I stated and I quote</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This certainly doesnt reflect all of the law enforcement officers, but it represents well the ones I know of anyway.
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

The list of names you mentioned, including yourself, I dont know are not the ones I am referring to.  And its not bigoted because it accuratley represents the ones I do know of.  Facts are facts wether you agree with them or not.  

Seems I struck a nerve with you.  If I may ask, have you ever "not remembered" under oath?  Or conveniently left out any detail in a report to make your case look better?  

Just curious.
 
Lee sorry to hear about this mess, all I can say is IL is the stupidist freaking state in the USA, it is nothing but a cop state with bull laws that the enforcers dont even know, theres a few people here in IL that are cool but get them out of this state and I wish they would nuke it, it would do the whole world alot of justice

as far as what Tim is saying I dont think he is being a bigot at all, he explained it was his experiances, I am another I hate cops, its a shame because the simple fact is the good cops(in what ever field) are the minority BY FAR!!!! the majority of cops are nothing but theifs and liers, we were in NYC on Monday to visit Ellis Island and the Statue and some of the port attority guys were telling us about how the cops were ripping off the stores around the WTC after they ropped it all off, the guys running the ferries were bringin the cops in and out with tons of stolen stuff, it blows my mind to think that someone would be concerned with what they could take for free after an event like that but they did it, no fly zone nothing but your buddies around and guess what no way to get caught, its sick, or maybe they were just locking it up in their basement for safe keeping

this whole deal with Lee is a shame their just hoping that the people arrested dont have the money or time to fight it so they can make some free money
 
Now that I've calmed down somewhat, let me make a few points. I'll admit to over-reacting to your post, Tim. Hopefully, you'll be able to understand my perspective, and why it got under my skin.

Firstly, on the law enforcement tangent.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I have absolutely no respect for law enforcement officer types.  Quite frankly the whole system is set up to steal your money.  Get a ticket pay a fine, get arrested pay a fine.  Its all money driven and its your money they want.  As far as I am concerned its the largest legal form of an organized crime syndicate.  Just short of the governmental systems that is.  </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Here's a novel thought- don't break the law! That's the easiest way to avoid getting a ticket or paying a fine. Even so, did you realize that most traffic stops don't result in a ticket?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Then I went into the citations for funds called ticketing. (speeding, that kind of stuff)  How the only thing they are interested in was stealing money, I mean collecting that fine for justice.  It would nock you flat when you see how much they steal annually from us. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
What would you propose to deter folks from breaking the law? Or shal we just turn it into a free for all? Driving 50 in a residential, take a corner a little to hard, and wipe out a bunch of kids waiting for their schoolbus?...no problem.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> After all tax payers pay your salaries. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
One of the tiredest lines in the book. The salary is so great that it works out to $8-15 an hour on average. We must be crazy to risk our lives for such great pay. Some of us, such as myself, actually do this for free. That's right- all I get as a part-timer is a $200 a year uniform allowance. It ain't about money- it's about doing something positive.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As for the local street cops, biggest bunch of thieves and hypocrites you ever wanted to meet.  Several of which I went to school with so I know first hand. Almost all of them locally I have partied with and call acquaintances.   Then the after hour parties I was invited to,  (beer and "SMOKES" confiscated from victims{suspects} in the interest of justice)  It's not bad enough that we pay their salaries with our tax money, but we have to put up with their lying and stealing too.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
You're judging tens of thousands of individuals based on the actions of a few. Using that rationale, I guess we could characterize the entire herp community as a bunch of poachers based on the actions of folks like Rudy Kormarek and Ed Tierney??

Yes Tim, there are a few bad apples in law enforcement, but they represent a very small minority. As long as we select police officers from the general population, a few will slip through the cracks. Most get weeded out somewhere along the line. As for the "Blue Wall of Silence", I'll admit that it exists is some places. When you're armchair quarterbacked to death by the media and folks like Al Sharpton for shooting a bad guy coming at you with a machete, well... that tends to contribute to the problem. However, I know that's not the aspect of it that you were referring to. Rest assured though, most of those guys do get what's coming to them sooner or later.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> It really exist, even when they are caught on tape beating a hand cuffed kid.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I know which incident you're referring to (California), and I really wouldn't qualify what took place as a beating, although the officer could have shown a bit more restraint. To begin with, the kid split the officer's head open just above the ear. Then, when he was handcuffed, the kid grabbed the officer by the family jewels. By no means am I supporting the fact that he struck him after the cuffs were on- that much is inexcusable. Once the cuffs are on, the game is over, and he should have just stepped back. What I am saying, though, is that there is more to that story than the little snippet that made it to the 11 o'clock news.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Seems I struck a nerve with you.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Yes, you did. The vast majority of law enforcement officers are decent people. It's a shame that your experience with a few bad apples has skewed your view of LEO's as a whole.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If I may ask, have you ever "not remembered" under oath?  Or conveniently left out any detail in a report to make your case look better?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Nope. I'm only a part-timer, and don't often find myself having to testify. However, even if I was a full-timer, that wouldn't change a thing.
 
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