Lee Watson Swap Bust

[Gilbert Thompson]

Cops or every day people!!  We need to follow some advise and stick together on this.  We maybe differnt in some areas but one is the same.  We all have a love for reptiles.  It's our God given right to have reptiles of any kind in my opinion.  
Together things can change!!  It maybe ruff and cost some cash but it can be done.
 I think Lee deserves our support and he will sure get mine.
"Together we stand and divided we fall!"
Gilbert Thompson

 

[Classic Dum's]

lol i agree to that one!!!!

 

[evansnakes]

Seamus, for your information, the law was enacted back then because turtles were commonly fed raw chicken and meat. That was the major source of the bacteria. The FDA stated this as cause when they enacted this law. Today, people feed baby turtles pellet food which is mostly plant matter with some fish by product. I typically float large outer leaves of romaine lettuce in tanks for them to eat. If water is filtered, as it always should be, you will not have a significant enough bacteria load to cause any illness. It is only in stagnant water that the load would be considerable enough to cause harm and anyone who keeps turtles in filthy water is then at fault. As for your siphoning comment, that is true of large turtles, fish tanks and anything else! What does that have to do with turtles under 4"? Again, you are putting things in a context that does not apply. Method does not matter here. By the law it is the size of the carapace length, nothing else, so that you can't put the turtle in your mouth. As far as I am concerned, if you are dumb enough to put a turtle in your mouth or if you are a bad enough parent that you can't keep a turtle out of your childs mouth then you deserve whatever you get. Just as I feel all paternalistic laws are wrong. Suicide should not be illegal. We should not be mandated by law to wear motorcycle helmets or seat belts. Please don't go off on this as a tangent, these were just examples. Evan Stahl

 

[Seamus Haley]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> If water is filtered, as it always should be, you will not have a significant enough bacteria load to cause any illness.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

That was exactly what I said Evan... It is not present in enough density to cause signifigant illness...

And again... That does not mean it is absent... And it does not mean that idiots wouldn't find a way to get themselves seriously sick. I would keep any turtles I owned properly... You would keep any turtles you had properly... But Joe  Killherp wouldn't and that is the justification, however incorrect, for these laws.

I personally agree with you about this issue, as well as the others you mentioned... But I was speaking at that point from a generalized position presenting the inevitable arguments that you would encounter with that line of reasoning.

And as I think you stated earlier and I fully agree with... It is best to alter the laws through the system that was responsible for their creation. However Martin Luther King's comments about moral imperatives to disobey unjust laws apply after  a certain level of personal freedom is restricted... I don't personally feel that selling baby turtles against legal allowance to do so is a justifiable action based on the restrictions in question... But there are those who enjoy playing that role.

 

[vettesherps]

Evan I think you misconstrued my comments. I am not saying Lee has to post anything or ask vendors to sign anything. My thought is that it shows a proactive approach to the situation and can only help to iliminate this type of problem in the future. I have been to Lee's show many times both as a vendor and as a purchaser and have found the experience to be most favorable. I would hate for this one instance to be the cause of this show failing and no longer being held. I also think that there many non-herpers that will immediately associate this show with ilegal activites. It may also mean that the those organizations who busted the swap this time may be back on a regular basis. I have seen many cases in different businesses where the activites of patrons has caused the business to aquire a "bad " name. I also think to some degree we as business owners or property owners are responsible for the actions of people in our residence. You may disagree with that but it is the public opinion that I worry about. Most of them will never call you and find out what really happened. They will just draw a conclusion good or bad and leave it at that. Many of those may be people who could be or become very beneficial to our common goal as herpers, which is to promote a positive image of our hobby or profession. Please don't take offense to my comments, because they are not meant to be offensive. I am only pointing out that we could do better and as in many groups we do need to police ourselves.

Thank you,
George G

 

[evansnakes]

George I know what you are saying and agree with you to some extent but what you have to remember is that Lee went out and got USDA licensed for the show. I am unaware of any other show promoters that I have ever met who have gone to those lengths. Most do as little as possible and hope for the best. Being licensed and inspected by the federal government is in my book above and beyond his duty. There is always going to be somebody that screws up things for everybody else. As in this case, the one person who had venomous and native protected animals made the entire situation much more volitile and hostile. If there had been no violations of that magnatude the authorities may have not gone after anyone for the lesser offenses. Who knows? The point is, once they had those animals, they kept saying that this is the reason that the needed to act in this way. What if those animals were not there? I don't think anybody on either side thinks the 4" turtle law is a big deal and should take away from enforcement of much more serious laws. Yes, dealers in this business need to bring up there ethics and aweness a notch. I go into shows with the knowledge that I am not breaking any laws and therefore have no problem being scrutinized. I still don't like being detained all day for no good reason and losing a weeks worth of income, but what choice do we have? Evan Stahl

 

[P120_Cartman]

You know i hat it when this happens esp. when u have do to something right then and there i think he should redue it this sunday but.....i also think that people shoul sbbide by what he asks he is nice enough to let u go and sell and make money and meet interesting people why not keep illegal and venomous and small turtles the he*l out!!!! Isn't it 100 grand a turtle or something like that?

 

[Classic Dum's]

after reading back through this I had to comment that remarks about "people getting what they had coming to them" are way out of line, as Even has been stating about Lee getting his permits I know as well Lee has gone out of his way for these permits, by getting those permits he opens himself and show up to inspections anytime they want to come in, no one is going to get these permits and open themselves up to inspections if they knew of or were allowing vendors to violate the law,  Lees show is a smaller show when you consider the amount of tables and vendors in many of the other shows in the country, but ill tell ya what I used to set up all the northeast coast shows and have never seen that many people in one show in that short period of time, I know he gets more poeple through there a day then the Pottstown PA show and gives Hamburg PA a good run for their money and probally white plains NY as well, the remarks about the sick and dieing animals, several times know I have walked that show with Lee prior to him opening the doors and watched him make people remove animals from their tables, I forget what they were anymore but he made one vendor put the animals under his table and show him the animals at the end of the day because the vendor was trying to dump sick animals really cheap, the simple fact is he cant baby sit everyone all the time all day long, nor can his help, I think they do a very good job of policing the show, but if you got one vendor that is hell bent on breaking the law they are going to do it and thats what happened here

also I have never seen a show or show owner like Lee go to such great lentghs for the vendors and costumers Even how often is it that Lee does his costumer apreciation day? once a month? free food and what not for costumers and vendors alike, he charges a wopping $15 for a table and $3 to get through the door thats peanuts, look at the Tinly park show $15 a head to get through the door and $400+ for a table, Lee goes to lentghs I have never seen before to help the vendors and general public enjoy the show and make it a positive enviorment for all

 

[P120_Cartman]

I think its once every three months or so.....the last one was July 21. Also Lee does all this and has his own table to worry about!!!!!! He also helps people with all there ?'s and compliments and etc. he goes to great lengths and for everyone who has gone to his show and other shows will agree Lees is by far one of the best around!!!!!!! Every year it gets better and better more and more people show up there to buy sell and trade, if it keeps up we may have to move out of the barn!LOL <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

 

[Steve M.]

I did not take time to read all the post's here but I would just like to suggest that all this time spent bickering among each other would have been more wisely spent writing your elected officials to try to change some of the unfair herp laws we all face. I realize some people were offended and insulted, like the police officer and I would say to you sir you must know there are bad cops out there and many people have had bad experiences with bad cops so if your a good cop then the negative comments were not directed at you. Police fill a vital role in our society and should be appreciated and respected but one bad apple can ruin the bunch so the saying goes. But this is not the subject here I think we should try to stick together instead of fighting amongst our self’s  Steve Muys  
 P.s. if you need proof read this
http://www.globalherp.com/id35.htm

 

[P120_Cartman]

Thats sad all i have to say is they want my snakes (take them out of the cage and reimburse me both purchase price and sentimenat value) all thats stopping them is the fact that they r so afraid of these animals they refuse to actually listen if one pitbull is  mean they all are!! Yea right every snake and human have there own personality. until people start doing their job with there animals there will always be PETA.  I mena its not the snakes fault they have venom or crush things thats how they eat, most don't want to attack or bite unless they have no option now its the same with humans if we get backed into a corner r we going to backdown or fight?

Now as for a burm eating a kid it was hungry the owner didn't feed it or the kid has a rabbit and was playing with it and it smelt like mice verything has a reason for what it does.  I mean i don't understand all of PETA'S actions or ideas:

no hunting
no fishing
no rodeos
no animals used in movies
no private ownership of exotic pets
no leather or furs
no eating meat, poultry or seafood
no USA consumption of any dairy products
no ethical testing of animals for health care products
no shipping of animals by any common carriers
close down all circuses
close down most zoos

this can very quickly become a harsh reality if we don't start taking responsiblity for our actions.

 

[Classic Dum's]

I gotta say that is an excellant page, thanks for posting that
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I mean i don't understand all of PETA'S actions or ideas</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'> dont try to understand them its not worht the time or energy, half of them dont even understand themselves, they fall in line and believe everything they are told, they dont think as individuals, those two burms he is talking about in there one thing they forgot to mention both kids there was NO bite marks, none, you tell me how can a burm constrict its a child without bitting, the story from PA they also forgot to ad that the people had a child that was killed a couple years prior because supposidly the baby was sleeping next to his father and his father rolled on him and smothered him in his sleep, then their next child is smothered by a burm while the mom is in the back yard, personally I think there is lot more to the story, its all fear factor that peta and hsus are using against us, same as this deal with Lee, the news papers will boost the hype to places it didnt really go from what I gather there was one ligit citation written, the one for the venomous animal beyond that it was all very selective enforcment meant to damage his show, nothing more