LLL Reptile - Unhappy

[Borewyrm]

Actually maggots are not uncommonly used in massive tissue trauma be it from burns or major crush injuries. Sometimes they are even sewn into wounds to aid healing. In all fairness though, they are raised in labs under controlled conditions and subject to FDA standards. They don't pull them off a freshly killed deer (or day old Big Macs).

Leeches still have some medical uses and not that long ago a leech derived anticoagulant was tested for use in heart attacks. One new project is testing a component of gila monster venom to treat diabetes. And don't forget that Dr. Fleming discovered penicillin when a mold growing in a culture of Staphylococcus aureus had an area of clearing around it. Many if not most antibiotics are derived or synthesized from fungal products.

True

And just like they dont use maggots gathered off roadkill outside the hospital... they dont gether leaches from a local swamp. They are also destroyed once used... kinda a raw deal

 

[Jungle Gems]

You would be wrong. They are not raised on rotting flesh, rather they are fed a special gut load that does not consist of animal flesh. They are also sterialized before shipment. There actually is no major supplier of maggots in the US anymore as the cost was prohibitive.

Good to know, but a living creature cannot be completely sterialized(SIC), although I'm sure they are fairly aseptic.

 

[Jungle Gems]

Good to know, but a living creature cannot be completely sterialized(SIC), although I'm sure they are fairly aseptic.

I stand corrected.

"Can LarvE® cause wound infections?

LarvE® supplied by the Biosurgical Research Unit are sterile and therefore will not introduce pathogenic organisms into a wound. It is possible, though considered unlikely, that accidental infestations of wounds by maggots could represent a source of infection."

Here's a great link to maggot wound dressing FAQ.

http://www.larve.com/faq/

Good reading material. ENJOY!

 

[Dennis1]

???

LoL... so now that we all agree that they are dirty lil' disease carring buggers
Do we also agree that LLL shouldnt send maggots with the waxies?

 

[Jungle Gems]

LoL... so now that we all agree that they are dirty lil' disease carring buggers
Do we also agree that LLL shouldnt send maggots with the waxies?

My conclusion now is that I should probably just breed my own feeders and avoid the whole mess and expense. I had my first batch of crickets hatch the other day, so it's a start.

 

[Jim O]

LoL... so now that we all agree that they are dirty lil' disease carring buggers

No. Introduction of infections into open wounds and "carrying diseases" are still two very different things. An unwashed, apparently clean hand can do that. That's why surgeons scrub, gown, and glove prior to surgery. And scrubbing is a bit more than washing your hands. It probably lasts as long as your shower. Similarly, aseptic technique is practiced in burn units and for the same reason. The inside of the body is meant to be completely sterile. No living object is completely sterile by its very definition. Any miniscule amount of bacteria in an open wound can wreak havoc on an immunocompromised host such as one with massive trauma or major burns in whom this would be applicable. So...maggots from a culture of waxworms are no more likely to be vectors of disease than your dirty little hands, unless they get into your recent crush injury or your third degree burns.

Do we also agree that LLL shouldnt send maggots with the waxies?

Yes, no one argues this. But there were no maggots in the waxies when LLL sent them or even when they arrived. They appeared a week later after improper handling.

 

[Dennis1]

No. Introduction of infections into open wounds and "carrying diseases" are still two very different things. An unwashed, apparently clean hand can do that. That's why surgeons scrub, gown, and glove prior to surgery. And scrubbing is a bit more than washing your hands. It probably lasts as long as your shower. Similarly, aseptic technique is practiced in burn units and for the same reason. The inside of the body is meant to be completely sterile. No living object is completely sterile by its very definition. Any miniscule amount of bacteria in an open wound can wreak havoc on an immunocompromised host such as one with massive trauma or major burns in whom this would be applicable. So...maggots from a culture of waxworms are no more likely to be vectors of disease than your dirty little hands, unless they get into your recent crush injury or your third degree burns.

That was taken from laboratory controlled subjects and not wild
I would also like to to point out this compairison: We should not put a wild caught snake with our private stock Untill a successfull Quarantine has taken place so i wouldnt want wild caught maggots with my captive bred anything
I'm Not exactly sure what you said? I had to get my wife to help with the big words
I think you said:I may not be able to distinguish between bacteria and disease? You are probably right
I also hear that they carry worms as well as bad bacteria? wow the things we learn
Some african Maggots carry asomething called "Onchocerciasis" which causes blindness
And some american maggots carry worms to livestock and Hunted Animals :deer:
So let me retract what i said about the maggots carring disease and say
Maggots can get you sick

Yes, no one argues this. But there were no maggots in the waxies when LLL sent them or even when they arrived. They appeared a week later after improper handling.

I disagree The same thing has happened to me and i am sure many other lizard keepers(although i havent ordered from LLL) & like i said these are not your ordinary houseflies (they are Evil)
Thats probably why LLL's Supplier says to refridgerate them so those eggs dont hatch
LLL doesnt even know if they had them or not Only the supplier and the thread starter know for sure
I hope i dont come off to oppinionated(even though i am) It's just that i can relate with this particular subject and i love the entertainment especially when i get baited

 

[Jungle Gems]

No living object is completely sterile by its very definition.

Jim,

I thought the same thing. I believe I am pretty safe in assuming a maggot could not withstand a cycle through the autoclave or Anprolene sterilization.

"Can LarvE® cause wound infections?

LarvE® supplied by the Biosurgical Research Unit are sterile and therefore will not introduce pathogenic organisms into a wound. It is possible, though considered unlikely, that accidental infestations of wounds by maggots could represent a source of infection."

How could this claim be at all factual?

I did find the following quote on another site which I believe to be more accurate than labeling the live maggots as sterile:

"The larvae are disinfected by a process that includes washing the eggs in a solution of sodium hypochlorite 0.05%."

The terms disinfected or even aseptic seem to be a little more valid. Is there a way to sterilize an organism (excluding reproductively) that I am not aware of?

 

[Jim O]

The only way they can be "germ free" presumably is if they are grown under "sterile conditions" using sterilized media. But as soon as they are applied to a wound they are likely colonized by whatever bacteria currently reside in the wound.

 

[Jim O]

I would also like to to point out this compairison: We should not put a wild caught snake with our private stock Untill a successfull Quarantine has taken place so i wouldnt want wild caught maggots with my captive bred anything

Actually a more fair comparison is not to put "wild caught" maggots with your "captive bred" maggots.

You are grasping at straws Dennis. Show me where these little maggots that arose in these waxworms are known to cause disease in healthy reptiles or humans. Until you can do that you are just continuning to blow more hot air into this thread which should long be dead.

All LLL did was ship waxworms. That maggots appeared A WEEK LATER is IRRELEVANT. Prove they came from them. You can't. No one can. Someone here pointed out that maggots can appear in carrion in an afternoon. The waxworms were left out that long. You need to take a few deep breaths and drop this. It was $7 worth of waxworms that arrived fine. How long should they have been guaranteed for? Get a grip.

 

[Luis]

It was $7 worth of waxworms that arrived fine. How long should they have been guaranteed for? Get a grip.
__________________
Jim Ohlstein


lol that was funny. When I get home from work I enjoy reading these posts while pretending that I am listening to my wife while she talks about her day.
So its not that I want to keep this going but has anyone considered that perhaps -Someone broke in the house placed the maggots in the wax worm culture . Than left without taking anything.
Their objective could be to "ruin" LLL reputation or just cause anarchy.
This certainly is a possibility that no one has considered. Just a thought.

 

[Dennis1]

Actually a more fair comparison is not to put "wild caught" maggots with your "captive bred" maggots.

You are grasping at straws Dennis. Show me where these little maggots that arose in these waxworms are known to cause disease in healthy reptiles or humans. Until you can do that you are just continuning to blow more hot air into this thread which should long be dead.

You are totally right about that this thread should have been done long ago
But i took the bait and tried to answer your questions and you didnt like the answers There is no way i can prove that those particular maggots are carrying disease as they are probably in the dump
I can say that i got my tainted waxies from Timberline and that i wont buy from them again

All LLL did was ship waxworms. That maggots appeared A WEEK LATER is IRRELEVANT. Prove they came from them. You can't. No one can. Someone here pointed out that maggots can appear in carrion in an afternoon. The waxworms were left out that long. You need to take a few deep breaths and drop this. It was $7 worth of waxworms that arrived fine. How long should they have been guaranteed for? Get a grip.

I am not angry If you are its not my fault
You are right again It cant be proven that the maggotts came from LLL
I just beleive it , But at least one good thing came from my posting her chastising has stoped and that was the original goal for me

 

[Borewyrm]

Ok so we apparently have a few backyard microbiologists and aspiring editors. They are disinfected (if that makes you happy) in a chloromine as eggs. There are also thought to be substances excreted by maggots into necrotic tissue contain such beneficial antimicrobial and healing properties. I forget.... what does this have to do with the post anyway?

 

[Borewyrm]

That was taken from laboratory controlled subjects and not wild
I would also like to to point out this compairison: We should not put a wild caught snake with our private stock Untill a successfull Quarantine has taken place so i wouldnt want wild caught maggots with my captive bred anything
I'm Not exactly sure what you said? I had to get my wife to help with the big words
I think you said:I may not be able to distinguish between bacteria and disease? You are probably right
I also hear that they carry worms as well as bad bacteria? wow the things we learn
Some african Maggots carry asomething called "Onchocerciasis" which causes blindness
And some american maggots carry worms to livestock and Hunted Animals :deer:
So let me retract what i said about the maggots carring disease and say
Maggots can get you sick


I disagree The same thing has happened to me and i am sure many other lizard keepers(although i havent ordered from LLL) & like i said these are not your ordinary houseflies (they are Evil)
Thats probably why LLL's Supplier says to refridgerate them so those eggs dont hatch
LLL doesnt even know if they had them or not Only the supplier and the thread starter know for sure
I hope i dont come off to oppinionated(even though i am) It's just that i can relate with this particular subject and i love the entertainment especially when i get baited

Sigh... perhaps there is a company out there that specializes in both Larval Debridment Therapy and pet feeders. Seems logical?

 

[Liza714]

Any one want to hazard a guess which animal has killed more human beings than any other in the history of our species?

 

[Borewyrm]

Bubonic plague transmitted by the fleas from infected Old English black rats.

 

[Borewyrm]

So naturally anyone that sells rats should be shot and the rodents themselves burned at the stake! I bet they weigh the same as a duck!

 

[Jungle Gems]

Bubonic plague transmitted by the fleas from infected Old English black rats.

And now the song "Ring Around the Rosey" comes to mind. Oh what a glorious thing childhood naivety can be, but I won't delve into that as I would be getting off-topic. Besides, I've got go to my backyard and do some Gram stains on my bacterial cultures (specifically my lactose-fermenting GNROD's grown on MacConkey's agar)...

 

[Jim O]

Any one want to hazard a guess which animal has killed more human beings than any other in the history of our species?

Actually it would have to be the Anopheles mosquito, the females of which transmit the malarial parasite. Mosquitos also transmit such lovely things as Eastern Equine Encephalitis and West Nile Disease.

The plague killed maybe 25 million Europeans in to Middle Ages but many were infected by direct person to person transmission (pneumonic plague) though many were certaily inflected by flea bites (bubonic plague). Malaria has killed many more than that and continues to kill well over 100,000 people per year in Africa and Asia.

 

[Liza714]

Ding ding ding we have a winner. The fly is the deadliest animal of all time, of which the mosquito's are a few species. From african sleeping sickness to malaria to dengue fever to my new fav, west nile, the flies really have our number. That said I would rather eat a maggot than get bitten by a vector. FYI disease carrying flies do not pass on the disease to their eggs/ larva. They reinfect themselves every generation thru their adult feeding habits.