Lowballing: Busting the Bubble

[Behmfamily]

I'm sick and tired of hearing about how lowballing someone with an overpriced animal is a sin or unethical. I find great enjoyment in what has happend in several markets:

1. Limburgh-strain albino Rosys
2. Ball Python morphs

I take great pride in dumping Saharan Sand Boas and Calabar Burrowing pythons on the market. Just today, I saw someone selling Saharans for $20, down from the $100 I paid last year. Anyone who wants one can obtain them at a reasonable price.

Back to the point on lowballing. I can see why various big-mouths have a problem when someone undercuts their outrageous prices. The market determines pricing. If you think that your albino Ball is worth $750 and someone offers you $500, don't sell it. Let them buy it from you next year at $250.

I wonder how many of these people are now sitting on GTPs or Basin ETBs, two of the next markets to crack. God help the person who suggests that a CB neonate GTP should sell at a price closer to that of a FB neonate costing 1/2 the price. Don't get me started on locality Rosys.

Indigos are another problem. Lately, I have happily watched prices drop to $700-$800 for an adult male. Hopefully, $500 will soon be the norm, on the way down to $250.

What these big-mouths have tried to create is an atmosphere where bargaining is perceived as an insult. I encourage all viewers to negotiate a hard deal. If someone is insulted by your offer, move on or contact me. I'm watching various sites and its amazing how much competition is out there.

Together, we can make some of the more desireable animals available to all. Let these big-mouths sit with their animals for a while.

Let the discussion begin.

Mitch

 

[Intense Herpetoculture]

I'm curious why you think the basin ETBs market is going to fall. Think about it, for the first time in many years they are not allowing smuggled animals into the country, just CBB animals can be offered from now on. So, the demand is up, and there is no WC animals to supply the demand, leaving only captive breeding to supply the market.

 

[Behmfamily]

Justyn,

Its all about barriers to entry. While ETBs require more work then others, virtually anyone can buy an adult pair and begin production in their garage. At current prices, they're being touted as investments like mutual funds. Its becoming a marketing pitch, "How to turn $4,000 into $100,000?" Ask yourself, who is sitting on large commercial breeding colonies? How many do you believe are already here? Why is that market any different than any other?

Mitch

 

[Griz]

Michael, while I agree with you in theory (I've always been outspoken about people having the audacity to complain about my prices being too low), you need to learn to take the high road. I understand the frustration but referring to some of the larger breeders as loud mouths etc is NOT going to help your sales. If you are this frustrated with them then simply keep what you are doing. Sell your animals at what you believe are fair prices and move on. Let your reputation speak for itself but try not to make verbal enemies along the way. You're better off that way.

Griz

 

[romad119]

Lower prices are good, but it can also have negative effects. I would hate to see the business stagnate if the profitability dropped too much but on the other hand there are some near monopolies that I feel take advantage of the fact and adjust pricing accordingly.

Unfortunately some people view animal care and concern based on pricing. The higher cost gets the better care. I have heard the term 'throw away' snakes several times and would not like it to apply to any animals let alone some more threatened species if the cost drops to the point where things like Indigos are treated like a corn snake.

On the other hand lower cost may bring responsible people and more keepers seeking to propagate some species. All my snakes are pets too, I don't keep anything I don't like and enjoy. I also see where some will bring me more $$ then others and I balance this out by keeping some species that aren't worth much $$ at all but are threatened and I feel the need to help with their CB numbers.

I think prices should decrease as availability is increased especially for non morph species. Apples and oranges to me. If you want something fancy or designer then the price comes with it. If everything drops too much, there isn't anything to talk about at the water cooler. lol.

 

[jglass38]

I'm sick and tired of hearing about how lowballing someone with an overpriced animal is a sin or unethical. I find great enjoyment in what has happend in several markets:

1. Limburgh-strain albino Rosys
2. Ball Python morphs

I take great pride in dumping Saharan Sand Boas and Calabar Burrowing pythons on the market. Just today, I saw someone selling Saharans for $20, down from the $100 I paid last year. Anyone who wants one can obtain them at a reasonable price.

Back to the point on lowballing. I can see why various big-mouths have a problem when someone undercuts their outrageous prices. The market determines pricing. If you think that your albino Ball is worth $750 and someone offers you $500, don't sell it. Let them buy it from you next year at $250.

I wonder how many of these people are now sitting on GTPs or Basin ETBs, two of the next markets to crack. God help the person who suggests that a CB neonate GTP should sell at a price closer to that of a FB neonate costing 1/2 the price. Don't get me started on locality Rosys.

Indigos are another problem. Lately, I have happily watched prices drop to $700-$800 for an adult male. Hopefully, $500 will soon be the norm, on the way down to $250.

What these big-mouths have tried to create is an atmosphere where bargaining is perceived as an insult. I encourage all viewers to negotiate a hard deal. If someone is insulted by your offer, move on or contact me. I'm watching various sites and its amazing how much competition is out there.

Together, we can make some of the more desireable animals available to all. Let these big-mouths sit with their animals for a while.

Let the discussion begin.

Mitch

You couldn't come off as more of a tool if you tried. You've shown yourself to be an idiot in the past and its no surprise you post this garbage.

 

[Behmfamily]

The big-mouths that I was referring to are not necessarily the larger breeders, but people like Jamie above. They are the smallest operators trying to avoid being the last man standing in a Ponzi scheme. Look at whats happening in the used caging market. Supply is growing considerably.

Breeders are entitled to make a profit. Quality should command a higher price. Just don't tell me that negotiation is an insult. Anyone wanting to pay $3500 for a CH Bushmaster Boelen's, go right ahead. Just don't be suprised if they then put a larger quantity on the market and prices plummet.

I think that the only way to make some species affordable, is through a breeding collective.

Mitch

 

[jglass38]

The big-mouths that I was referring to are not necessarily the larger breeders, but people like Jamie above. They are the smallest operators trying to avoid being the last man standing in a Ponzi scheme. Look at whats happening in the used caging market. Supply is growing considerably.

Breeders are entitled to make a profit. Quality should command a higher price. Just don't tell me that negotiation is an insult. Anyone wanting to pay $3500 for a CH Bushmaster Boelen's, go right ahead. Just don't be suprised if they then put a larger quantity on the market and prices plummet.

I think that the only way to make some species affordable, is through a breeding collective.

Mitch

Nobody ever said negotiation was an insult, did they? I believe in supporting the market and the future of my customers. I don't care whether they are buying a $75 snake or a $7500 snake. Also, I happen to believe that not EVERYTHING needs to be affordable to EVERYONE. Some things are rare and special. I can't afford a Ferrari but I don't hold it against Ferrari for not selling them for $50,000 and I don't make it my life's work to try to tank their business. I still think you're a tool and its been proven time and time again, everytime you open your mouth.

 

[Jim O]

Nobody ever said negotiation was an insult, did they? I believe in supporting the market and the future of my customers. I don't care whether they are buying a $75 snake or a $7500 snake. Also, I happen to believe that not EVERYTHING needs to be affordable to EVERYONE. Some things are rare and special. I can't afford a Ferrari but I don't hold it against Ferrari for not selling them for $50,000 and I don't make it my life's work to try to tank their business. I still think you're a tool and its been proven time and time again, everytime you open your mouth.

There's a flaw in your argument there Jamie. You probably cannot build a Ferrari for $50,000, so selling at that price would put them out of business. With reptiles that can reproduce easiliy and in numbers in captivity (like Ball Python morphs), one can make them fairly cheaply once the initial "investment" is made. I don't like Mitch much either but he's right. There are many people who have a vested interest in keeping prices high. We've had this discussion before and we disagreed then too. The market on morphs and non-morphs will continue to soften as supplies increase, unless more buyers appear. In markets where supplies decrease prices will increase. So if imports of Ball Pythons stopped normals would go up in price. That is a basic law of macroeconomics.

 

[Wolfy-hound]

It's one thing to have the market price go down as other people begin to breed that same morph. It's quite another to have someone offer you $250 for your $4000 Piedball ball python, then tell you and everyone else around that you are a jerkwad because you refuse to sell it to them. "I saw one at the show the other week for $250" well that's fine. You should have bought it then.
I price my snakes according to what they are worth to me(unless a emergency forces a quick sale) and if they don't sell, I might drop the price.
If someone took a chance on a new morph and they are the only ones with it, they SHOULD get the highest price possible. They are the ones that took the chance that the first one would be genetic. If no one wants that new morph(say it's REALLY ugly maybe?) then the price won't get paid.
But to go around delibritely undercutting others, or to insult other sellers who ask a decent(or even high) price for THEIR snakes goes against the entire idea of free enterprise to me.
If I don't want to pay $xx for that albino BP, then I'll wait, or I'll find one elsewhere. I Won't email the person and harague them over the price, offer half of the price as a insulting offer, or go buy several albinos and advertise right next to them that mine are half the price of theirs. It's none of my business what that person is charging.
Likewise, if you'd like to buy pieds, breed them and sell them at $100 each, then you have every right to. I'd prefer you didn't, but that's your business.
And most of the high end cars really don't even cost THAT much to build. But your are paying for the prestige of having THAT brand. Same as tennis shoes, or purses. Some people will ALWAYS pay more for a big name on what they are buying.
Wolfy

 

[Scott Ashton]

Its a free market.

What a person charges for their animals is entirely their own business.

Consider the following from an interview with Bob Clark in the June, 2001 edition of Reptiles magazine:

"I recognize that the dynamics of the market for and price of a new mutation are a cause of concern for many potential buyers. As more of the animals are available, the price will fall. Competition among breeders brings lower prices. This is good or bad depending on the side from which you are watching or participating. I often liken the market to a pyramid. There are fewer buyers at the top willing to pay more money for the rarest animals. As the price lowers, the pyra mid broadens toward the base representing an increasing number of buyers of the same animal at lower prices.

Because many reptiles have so many offspring, it isn't long before the price starts to fall. For those concerned or worried about this process, it should be noted that the fact that the animals do have so many offspring is good insulation against the lower price. An animal purchased for a relatively high price can sustain a dramatic drop in price and still afford its owner a return measured in multiples of the original investment during the first year of breeding. If a buyer is concerned with making money from his animals, it is important first and foremost that the animals breed and produce.

Many times I have heard people say that they hope this or that project doesn't crash like the albino Burmese did. Let us imagine that a buyer bought these animals at the early price of $2,000 each. If the animals bred and produced 30 babies that sold even at today's price of about $150 each, who could complain? The snakes can be bred for the next 12 seasons, as well, and on into the future. That's hundreds of offspring. I hate to spend so much time on this, but its something people talk about a lot and something that many people don't understand."

 

[fuscusking13]

Scott- great point and great post. At higher prices you are likely to sell less animals, whereas when stuff drops below say $500 almost everyone can afford one if they so desire and thus more and more are sold. As far as lowballing goes, get over it. If you get insulted that deeply by someone offering you money, why are you in a business such as this? Politely say, sorry the price is firm and move on, or come back with a counter offer. It's that easy. I have had people low ball me before, it happens. There is nothing wrong with someone trying to get the best possible deal. An educated consumer knows that in almost any market there is room for negotiation of some kind, whether its buying a car and asking for free oil changes, or trying to get a better bargain at a yard sale. Lowballing is even suggested in such things as real estate.

On the other hand there are reasonable limits. To have an animal for sale with a market value of $5,000 and get a $200 offer is ridiculous, but why get offened?? Just say no, thats it, or if you are that upset hang up, delete the email whatever. I've seen people selling stuff for hundreds of dollars, that later gave it away just to be rid of it, so I guess it never hurts to ask or to try. I do think it is wrong to go around and low ball everyone for everything, even if its just to try to resell it. Not all of us are made of money, and we all have our dreams. I love caramel Albino retics, but they are way out of my leauge, so I dont own one. WHen they come down close to my budget I would try offering what I could afford, and if its no, its no.

At the end of the day, I think that this market is like any others with all kind of desperation buyers, motivated sellers, people in it for the money, some for the love of the business, ect. Every type of person serves their unique purpose no matter what that might be in order to keep this healthy and productive, and sometimes even lucrative business alive. Thats my take on the whole thing for what little it is worth. Dan M.

 

[Cheryl Marchek AKA JM]

interesting discussion. Personally~ I usually don't mind a little negotiation. I've negotiated prices both when buying and selling.

What I don't like is the attitude sometimes associated with that "lowball" offer~ like when someone INFORMS me something I am selling is only worth half of my asking price.....well~ if you think my price is so much too high....why not just make an offer of less and see if I take it? Why the need to INFORM me that my price is much too high? It's my price for my item....whatever price I advertised it at is what it is valued at to ME. And if it's much too high for the market....well then I'll just be keeping it won't I?

And if a very low offer is refused.....very politely~ say with three simple words "No Thank You"........well.....thats rarely good enough. THEN they want to negotiate. Well....if you wanted to negotiate you should not have INFORMED what my item was worth to start with.

And you most certainly look the fool if you eventually break down and attempt to make snide remarks in completely unrelated ads.....and finally offer the original asking price.......because by then the price has gone up! (I wish I'd seen this coming and saved the ad! LOL! Thanks for reminding me of it!)

Maybe that kind of stuff flies with the big guys who need to make a mortgage every month off what they sell or do not sell.......but for us little guys.......you gotta watch the way you go about it or we'll just keep it!

But I don't mind a little polite negotiating........

 

[AncientDNA]

Don't get me started on locality Rosys.

What exactly do you mean here?!?!

Did you buy high only to find out what you had wasn't worth what you wished it were?

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

personally... and this is from an amateur in the hobby here a small idea that ive got cooking, im sure others have said this before though.....

if people who are truly concerned about the market not crashing, they need not produce EVERY year. With the Smaller amounts of animals being produced demand will be much higher the next go around and there the price will go up ( maybe itll take a little longer, but you get the idea)

But its like when sony released the PS3... there are NEVER enough to go around for a long time at first, and then, once the rush is over and everyone has paid BIG bucks... things start to settle and eventually everyone has one. and then, prices go down, then a new system comes out and everyone sells theirs on Ebay for quarter of the price they bought it for. its just how the market goes. but, people who are breeding these animals can prolong that, by skipping seasons. ( there will always be those that dont care and will saturate the market with them, unfortunately) but at least it would add a little cushion to the stability of prices and such. ( maybe?)

but the people who are breeding ALOT of these animals and are some of the larger producers should be controlling the amounts they produce... if not for themselves, for the community and the value we place on morphs. sure itll drive the price up, but then things will at least remain stable. i do worry that ball pythons are going to become like Burmese and the like... ( and lots of normals already are) ending up in shelters and such. and really.... its upsetting.... i love these animals, and i DONT want to see more go to waste because people lose interest in them.

I personally will never be big, i dont ever plan to be, and i honestly dont WANT to be. I just want pretty snakes that i enjoy for myself. ( and friends ) ^_- So im not so worried about price as others are( of course i welcome lower priced animals for myself), but i do have my concern for those who make a small living off of these guys, or at least enough to make their collection pay for itself, that to me, is more important than me having that ultra cool morph at a cheap price.

I will say that anyone looking into getting into breeding as a way to make money.... you Seriously should look elsewhere, because.... in all honesty, you will LOSE money in this hobby, unless you dump 100K into it right off the bat, and only work with those animals for SEVERAL years... youll never even make some of that back to be worth calling anything more than "supply money"

so yeah.... just my thoughts. *shrugs*

 

[AncientDNA]

I will say that anyone looking into getting into breeding as a way to make money.... you Seriously should look elsewhere, because.... in all honesty, you will LOSE money in this hobby, unless you dump 100K into it right off the bat, and only work with those animals for SEVERAL years... youll never even make some of that back to be worth calling anything more than "supply money"

I agree completely. In my case it's a hobby that's gone out of control...way out of control if you talk to my neatneck family.

If I ever get into the black, meaning that my Rosy Boa addiction, actually pays for itself, I will consider it a job well done.
Now if only I can figure out a way to make mtn biking, jeep accessories and drinking beer pay off...

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

I agree completely. In my case it's a hobby that's gone out of control...way out of control if you talk to my neatneck family.

If I ever get into the black, meaning that my Rosy Boa addiction, actually pays for itself, I will consider it a job well done.
Now if only I can figure out a way to make mtn biking, jeep accessories and drinking beer pay off...

LOL youd probably have to open up a Snake/Mountain Bike/Liquor,Beer/Jeep Store for that.... HAHAHA

I work at a Liquor store, so i suppose i work to drink, ( though thats very little )

 

[Seamus Haley]

What I don't like is the attitude sometimes associated with that "lowball" offer~ like when someone INFORMS me something I am selling is only worth half of my asking price.....well~ if you think my price is so much too high....why not just make an offer of less and see if I take it? Why the need to INFORM me that my price is much too high? It's my price for my item....whatever price I advertised it at is what it is valued at to ME. And if it's much too high for the market....well then I'll just be keeping it won't I?

That's really the crux of it right there...

Politely offering an amount below the listed price and accepting the answer- or respectfully attempting to negotiate for a bargain is, broadly, acceptable and even encouraged.

Some people don't seem to understand the difference between approaching with an offer and repricing the animal. Or cage... or flexwatt... or whatever.

When they start a "negotiation" by telling you that your animals are crap and worthless and that they can buy them for half the price from fifty other sources- that's lowballing. It's not respectful, it's not polite and it's not going to be well recieved. The same goes for people who don't start flinging the insults until after their initial offer is turned down- they're lowballers and they're too stupid to understand the difference between their approach and a legitimate negotiation about price.

 

[Jim O]

That's really the crux of it right there...

Politely offering an amount below the listed price and accepting the answer- or respectfully attempting to negotiate for a bargain is, broadly, acceptable and even encouraged.

Some people don't seem to understand the difference between approaching with an offer and repricing the animal. Or cage... or flexwatt... or whatever.

When they start a "negotiation" by telling you that your animals are crap and worthless and that they can buy them for half the price from fifty other sources- that's lowballing. It's not respectful, it's not polite and it's not going to be well recieved. The same goes for people who don't start flinging the insults until after their initial offer is turned down- they're lowballers and they're too stupid to understand the difference between their approach and a legitimate negotiation about price.

So your disagreement, Seamus, is with method, approach, and perhaps respect. It's not with the idea that offering less is acceptable. While I agree with you that such tactics are unprofessional I don't regard them as not "legitimate". Any tactic which causes one to arrive at a settlement is "legitimate" whether it is "nice" or not. Telling the seller that their product sucks is not a good way to get a positive result, but telling them that you love it, need it, and can't live without it guarantees that you will pay the full asking price. Most people are not really well trained in the art of negotiation and don't understand that making an offer is not the equivalent of an insult. The problem in our hobby is that most of us small timers are personally invested in what we have produced. As a result, we may often see someone else knocking its worth as a personal insult. It is not necessarily anything of the kind.

I have occasionally paid less than my initial offer, usually by offering a price close to the asking price, being turned down, and walking away. When the seller comes back after rethinking, I'm no longer obligated to honor my original offer since it was rejected. My original offer then becomes the starting point for negotiation, not the end point, which is often a bit less.

One thing that people should remember is that the buyer really does have the advantage because s/he has the money and the likelihood is that the seller does not have the "only" comparable item, be it a hatchling reptile or a 2001 Jeep Cherokee. The seller wants the cash and the buyer can always look elsewhere.

 

[Behmfamily]

Its usually about Supply and Demand. What some people don't understand is market manipulation. In the case of PS3, Sony specifically reduced the initial release to create a buzz. This approach is prevalent in electronics. Does everyone understand what makes a hot IPO of stock?

When I offered 20% off the Basin ETB asking price, the seller flipped, when I offered 50% off retail for Cheryl's used cages, she freaked. Now, I could care less if they were insulted. Yet, when I offered Tony $700 for each Indigo, he politely declined. When I offered Smith his asking price for his Rings, we were both happy So what. Like someone said, the problem clearly is offering an outrageously low price. That's not negotiation, its just wasteing time.

Risk gets rewarded. Quality gets rewarded. Service gets rewarded. Just don't try to justify a higher selling price because your operational costs are too high.

As far as Jim's point on method, some people are so smooth that butter melts in their mouth. I'm not one of them. I acquire animals for my interests and I do enjoy conflict. If you're looking for a friend, buy a dog.

Mitch