Luis Taracena (herphobbiest) bad deal

[varnyard]

No, 22 jumbo Rats is what Richard gave me $50.00 for.

What ever she ate on top of that I do not expect Richard to pay me. Those are the Rats I gave Aurora. And 20 Jumbo Rats for the Lenght of time is a only a few Rats.

I thaw more than 30 Jumbo Rats everytime I feed.

hmmmm... let me think!

Wait! Maybe she only ate 3 jumbo rats in 10 months. LOL

If you say she ate three rats in ten months, then I would belive that.

HerpHobbiest: Richard on the other hand. He waited and waited. He Waited until he figure he could come to my house and get his female full of babies. He needed an Excuse to do it, and my deal with Matt did it!

Honestly, I do not expect to hear anything from him ever again. I gave his snake a few Rats and had it here in my house for about 10 months. Big deal!!!

He took me with a half a litter of Albinos. Oh, Well... At least my Coral Albino had fun sXXXXg Aurora. hahhaahaaa.

I think it's funny How Richard thinks of me that I do this only for the money... When He said he already has sold his unborn babies. LOL

I am not Bitter... Live and learn.

Anyway, it's not Levity it's peace of mind.

Now I will ask you. Does this sound like someone we can trust to post the real pictures of Matt's snake? IMO, I think not.

Also Luis, Why did you not say anything to Neil about the $50.00 dollars Richard gave you to feed HIS snake? IMO, it sounds like you were implying that he never gave you anything for the food. It just don't make sense why you would say this in your PM to Neil.

As for the clutch of eggs/hatchlings, that would be for Richard to decide. In light of the fact, YOU BROKE THE CONTRACT!!! Unless you have another contract, showing proof that both parties agreed to swap the males.
I just wanted to set the record straight. IMO, Richard has his choice to give you half of the clutch, or none. I will not look down on him if he gives you nothing. Because of the FACT, you broke the written agreement.

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

Luis, you got some serious problems. You know damn well I told you some time back I was going to pull her because you were not fullfilling your end of the bargain. You were doing the "paper part", because it was notarized, and you knew you HAD TO.......... YOU WERE NOT fullfilling the verbal discussion we had about her feedings until I threatened to pull her the FIRST TIME.
I told you I keep meticulous records. ie sheds, feeds, defecations, temp changes, weights...............I only expected feed dates and amounts from you, and shed dates, which you had a huge problem supplying me with until My FIRST threat of pulling her. You told me that you "keep no such records for your snakes and didn't think it was necessary." That's when I schooled you on the fact that "snakes are cold blooded. They take a long time to show any sicknesses due to their slow metabolism, and records are a way of finding health problems early, BEFORE it progresses to something worse."
I brought this up way back in September...(I offer this link only to prove that there were already existing tentions between Luis and I.)
http://www.reptilescanada.com/forums/showthread.php?p=35944#post35944post35944

Then we had our discussion about YOU PUTTING SOME EFFORT into this on your behalf. The fact of the matter is, You have honored Me with a total of one phone call from your end through out this entire ordeal. And that call was not until this thread came about, and I told you I was coming to get her, and that call consisted of nothing but more excuses, and bringing up the contract a couple more times, and telling Me you would contact some people and let Me know "Your decision".
As I told you in September............"Regardless of the contract, She remains MY SNAKE, NOT YOURS!" and you needed to comply with My wishes, or I am pulling her. Remember? Or is your selective amnesia kicking in again?

This thread was the "straw that broke the camels back". Nothing more. There was already existing tentions, and you damn well know it. THE ONLY REASON I DID NOT COME AND PULL HER IN SEPTEMBER (EVEN BEFORE BREEDING HER TO THE WRONG SNAKE TOOK PLACE) IS BECAUSE I WAS FIGURING YOU FOR THE TYPE THAT WOULD SUE ME FOR EVERY DOLLAR YOU COULD GET!!. I could not afford, and still can't afford, to be sued. I am not a rich person, and a portion of My meager earnings goes for helping wildlife rehab as it is, making Me even less well off. But at this time, I really don't give a damn if that's what you choose. You go for it Luis.

And as for the litter............Let me tell you now for all to see. Because of your persistant accusations about My integrity, morals, and ethics and insisting that I am going to burn you, (as I now believe you had planned for Me), You will not see your half unless you do sue Me for it, and a court orders it. I am sick of your dishonesty, and immoral ways, and SICK of your accusations about My integrity, and ethics.

There You go Luis. Your wish just came true! Happy now? You are so concerned that I am going to pull EXACTLY what you had planned for Me, that I will ease your mind some. You no longer have to worry about that. Your persistant accusations, and dishonest BS, just now made up My mind for Me. Until this point, I still felt a moral obligation to fullfill My end of our agreement. Not any more though.

Now that that has been said, you should also know this. I am known for being honest. Lacking in tact, being a little blunt, harsh and unyielding at times, Yes (hense the user name). But ALWAYS HONEST. Why is that Luis? Because unlike you, I don't feel a need to "win people over with BS". I am who I am, what you see is what you get. I will not put a "fake" personality out there just to please people or get My way.

Rest assured, when I can think more clearly, and know that My snake is going to survive this ordeal, than I will start a more earnest hunt for the IM's and emails that prove what type of person you are. As i told you before, you started a war with the wrong person. YOU WIILL FIGURE THIS OUT BEFORE IT IS OVER!!! Right now, My concern is for Aurora's survival. Just as it has always been.

And quit throwing this quote out there like it holds some weight for you........
]QUOTE=Richard Carew]I do not care if the babies die. I can always breed her again next year...[/QUOTE]
So You are telling Me I am supposed to have more concern for the litter and the money it will bring, than for the health of My beloved? I'll say it again. At this point, I do not care about the litter. I care about My girl surviving this ordeal. And Yes, the litter is replaceable (and "replaceable" is actually what I said to you). Aurora is NOT. DON'T YOU GET IT?
Of course you don't. You wouldn't.



Rick

 

[High End Herps Inc]

Our full support

This thread was the "straw that broke the camels back". Nothing more. There was already existing tentions, and you damn well know it. THE ONLY REASON I DID NOT COME AND PULL HER IN SEPTEMBER (EVEN BEFORE BREEDING HER TO THE WRONG SNAKE TOOK PLACE) IS BECAUSE I WAS FIGURING YOU FOR THE TYPE THAT WOULD SUE ME FOR EVERY DOLLAR YOU COULD GET!!. I could not afford, and still can't afford, to be sued. I am not a rich person, and a portion of My meager earnings goes for helping wildlife rehab as it is, making Me even less well off. But at this time, I really don't give a damn if that's what you choose. You go for it Luis.

And as for the litter............Let me tell you now for all to see. Because of your persistant accusations about My integrity, morals, and ethics and insisting that I am going to burn you, (as I now believe you had planned for Me), You will not see your half unless you do sue Me for it, and a court orders it. I am sick of your dishonesty, and immoral ways, and SICK of your accusations about My integrity, and ethics.

There You go Luis. Your wish just came true! Happy now? You are so concerned that I am going to pull EXACTLY what you had planned for Me, that I will ease your mind some. You no longer have to worry about that. Your persistant accusations, and dishonest BS, just now made up My mind for Me. Until this point, I still felt a moral obligation to fullfill My end of our agreement. Not any more though.

Now that that has been said, you should also know this. I am known for being honest. Lacking in tact, being a little blunt, harsh and unyielding at times, Yes (hense the user name). But ALWAYS HONEST. Why is that Luis? Because unlike you, I don't feel a need to "win people over with BS". I am who I am, what you see is what you get. I will not put a "fake" personality out there just to please people or get My way.

Rest assured, when I can think more clearly, and know that My snake is going to survive this ordeal, than I will start a more earnest hunt for the IM's and emails that prove what type of person you are. As i told you before, you started a war with the wrong person. YOU WIILL FIGURE THIS OUT BEFORE IT IS OVER!!! Right now, My concern is for Aurora's survival. Just as it has always been.

And quit throwing this quote out there like it holds some weight for you........
]QUOTE=Richard Carew]I do not care if the babies die. I can always breed her again next year...

So You are telling Me I am supposed to have more concern for the litter and the money it will bring, than for the health of My beloved? I'll say it again. At this point, I do not care about the litter. I care about My girl surviving this ordeal. And Yes, the litter is replaceable (and "replaceable" is actually what I said to you). Aurora is NOT. DON'T YOU GET IT?
Of course you don't. You wouldn't.



Rick[/QUOTE]

We just wanted to say that we openly support Rick and Rick's decision here. We completely understand his obvious frustration with Luis and Luis's lies and dishonest ways and we sympathize with him that he had to endure even a minute of it. Had he not taken printed out documentation of all the threads and pertinent information and had a real Sherrif present he would have never gotten his snake and Matts ball pythons that day. We fully believe that after reading the account of what happened that day when Luis attempted to make Rick prove that Aurora was his, thereby implying she was his own. That is attempted theft in our book. We feel Rick is more than justified in his decision. And while he has an obvious legal right for making this decision since the only official contract was clearly broken by Luis we feel there is a more relevant element to this whole ironic and tragic saga that is taking place. The time of "Nice guys finishing last" is over. Through this wonderful board the good guys are able to get knowledge, advice and support to stand up to the bad guys and win. Now it is the BAD guys that finish last. And that's the way it should be. We also strongly believe that criminals should not benefit from their own unlawful ways and that this is just (as in justice) comeuppance for Luis. Hopefully through this and his loss due to his very own dishonest actions as well as his loss of reputation and all credibility he will see the error of his ways and will become a more truthful person and will run an honest business from here on out. For if criminals don't pay a price they will not look inside themselves and seek change and a few months later he would be on this board again with a new unsuspecting and trusting victim. We need to prevent that.

While it is absolutely none of our business what Rick chooses to do with HIS babies from Aurora we felt it might be a nice gesture if Matt got one of them for his pain and suffering due to Luis's dishonest ways. Also, since we will all likely learn in a few months that those balls from Luis are very likely 100% het for nothing (we wouldn't put anything past Luis now). Just a thought.

Rick, we genuinely hope that Aurora makes a full and speedy recovery and lives a happy, healthy, long life with you. We wish the best for you both and again, you have our full support in your decisions here on this board.

 

[Chameleon Company]

I haven't read every line of every post, as much of it is the same valid criticism of Luis stated by different entities. I have also applauded Rick in this thread, and in one other that was of a different topic, for his actions in resolving this. It is exceedingly clear to me that Luis did not conduct himself in a way that any of us would find acceptable. Just how dishonorable and unprofessional might be debatable, but we are all on the same side of that fence. We could debate Luis' "intent", although I won't waste my time on it, but I think I am accurate in saying he hasn't stolen anything at this point. I am very inclined to believe that he would have kept Aurora and other snakes, at least for the time being if he had been able to, to include the last futile attempt in front of the sheriff, which will have to go down as a "classic moment".

Rick, I have no trouble with your explanation of how you "agreed" to the switch in males, as you had no choice, so there essentially was nothing to agree to. If everything works out well, and all animals recover, and Aurora does produce viable offspring, I probably do not agree with your decision not to honor some variation of the breeding-loan contract after you have been fully compensated for all the twists and turns. I also don't think that decision makes you bad or wrong in the best of outcomes either. I just don't think its the best decision that you could make. I hope that it reaches the point to where you are faced with that, for it would mean that everything else went well from this point forward.

I thought that the tangent the thread took about Luis' motorcycle and rims etc was in bad taste. While this thread did help to get things moving in a positive direction again, with the recovery of the snakes, the non-topic barbs also raised the antagonism level to new highs. Call it a personal attack at an inviting target, but it didn't help anything, and only made a bad situation worse. Nothing new for the BOI. On top of it all, an apology was promised if proof was rendered. Well? BTW, I do believe as all others that Luis is the hands-down bad guy here. It was never in doubt.

Like all in this thread Rick, my hopes are that Aurora recovers, and concur that all other concerns here are secondary to that.

 

[Griz]

While it is absolutely none of our business what Rick chooses to do with HIS babies from Aurora we felt it might be a nice gesture if Matt got one of them for his pain and suffering due to Luis's dishonest ways. Also, since we will all likely learn in a few months that those balls from Luis are very likely 100% het for nothing (we wouldn't put anything past Luis now). Just a thought.

Rick's deal and Matt's deal have nothing to do with each other. If anything, I would think Rick's gesture to go pick the animals up is more than enough on his end. Not quite following your train of thought.

Griz

 

[Cat_72]

I probably do not agree with your decision not to honor some variation of the breeding-loan contract after you have been fully compensated for all the twists and turns.

Jim, the breeding contract was to be fulfilled using a certain male, and it was not that male that bred Aurora. I'm not sure how that particular "twist and/or turn" could be compensated without getting Aurora bred to the correct male (provided she recovers from her RI)....and I don't think there's a snowballs chance in heck she's going anywhere near Luis again. Just my thoughts.

 

[High End Herps Inc]

Rick's deal and Matt's deal have nothing to do with each other. If anything, I would think Rick's gesture to go pick the animals up is more than enough on his end. Not quite following your train of thought.

Griz

Because by keeping the whole litter Rick is, in effect, being compensated for his pain and suffering caused by Luis. Matt also had/has pain and suffering to some extent and since the half of the litter could be considered as "paid by Luis" it just seemed to imply it was simply additional restitutional payment by Luis for his victims.

All in all though, it was just a thought on our part to be merely considered and passed on or utilized. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Bill_Leverton]

I personally think Rick owes Luis nothing at all, after seeing the old Bait and switch on Luis's part. I think that any proof Luis tries to show on Necropsy should not even be considered....It will most likely be altered at best, and I also think that Rick should Just send Matt His Balls and just be be done with this whole disaster. Luis proved him self time and time again he can not be trusted...... Rick I hope Aurora makes a total Recovery and gives birth to a healthy litter....

 

[kmurphy]

Give him half the litter.

There is no question that Rick would be well within his rights to keep all the babies(if they're born). Luis, has lied, broken the original contract and caused Rick's snake to become ill.

But keeping everything seems pretty exptreme to me and brings Rick down to Luis' level. If it were me, I and there is a litter born, then I would send Luis half, or some, of the snakes and be done with it. I just wouldn't want this hanging over my head, Luis isn't worth it.

Kevin

 

[Chameleon Company]

Kevin,
We are along the same lines ethically, and I don't think either one of us would quibble much if Rick never gave Luis the time of day from this point forward. Whatever the outcome, I think it unlikely that Luis would attempt a lawsuit, but its certainly not impossible.

But with regards to this:

There is no question that Rick would be well within his rights to keep all the babies(if they're born). Luis, has lied, broken the original contract and caused Rick's snake to become ill.

There is a question, a big one. I can't predict exactly how a court would rule, as they would have to hear all the evidence, and I have no desire to have us all play outhouse attorney. But even right at this point, Luis has legal standing. Like it or not, Rick did not declare the contract null (which would be subject to legal review if he had) when a different male was used. Whatever his motivations to go along with it then (agreed he had no choice, but he did not act then as he has now), his position to now claim he has no obligation to the deal is undermined by his earlier acquiescence. Contracts can be changed if both parties agree. Whether before of after the fact, its not a cut and dry issue. The court could easily rule that the contract was still in effect, although rule to some changes in how compensation was to be awarded because things had changed, if they felt it was due. Even if Aurora were to die at this point, and we all hope that does not happen, Luis would have claim, in that he would argue that moving the animal contributed to her demise. A judge would look at everything (or a jury if the values here are high enough), and assess a percent of responsibility. As to the animal becoming sick while Luis had it, or die, that outcome was within the contract. Again, I am not saying which outcome is certain, but if the judge gets past the use of a different male, given the existing evidence, then for Rick to claim that (I'm paraphrasing) "for good reason I found out I could not trust this guy, and lost faith in him and his ability to take care of the snake" is not a strong legal position from which a contract can be voided. The court may be somewhat sympathetic to Rick's plight, as we all are, but the contract (and its modifications) are going to rule the day. It is a mess at this point.

 

[Neil Gubitz]

Well, I, for one, would LOVE to see Luis try and take this to court.... As soon as the judge found out that Luis has, "unclean hands", he/she will dismiss the case....
Now guys, your solution is just too "politically correct" for me.... Now, I might not be a religeous man, but it doesn't mean that I don't believe in The Ten Commandements, The Golden Rule, Marriage Vows, and knowing what's right and what's wrong.... but there is an "ethical" resolution, and then there is a "penal" resolution.... This situation DEMANDS a PENAL resolution.... Because of all the "untruths", because of all the deception, because of all the bait and switch tactics, because of all the waiting and stress incurred by Matt and Rick, etc., etc., etc.... I wouldn't send him a THING!!.... He should take responsibility for his OWN actions, maybe, he won't do it again (yeah, right)....

Neil

 

[Griz]

I think that this situation can easily be rectified and resolved by following my suggestion:

1) Rick, sell all of the babies and give Luis 50% of it.

2) I will buy all of the babies for $100.

3) You then give Luis his $50 for his half.

This satisfies any verbal contract, especially since it was not declared in writing that Luis's 50% of the litter would be in stock or monetary, so the situation resolves itself.

Griz

PS If it were me, I would hold onto the balls until the necropsy is done since you agreed to this in writing. Once the results are tabulated, send them to Matt.

Secondly, again speaking if it were me, I would make Luis sue me. We can banter all day long about how a court MIGHT decide but the fact remains is that the original contract was not fulfilled by Luis and therefore Luis broke the contract. You owe him nothing in my opinion.

 

[varnyard]

Jim, I disagree with this. The male on the contract was a different morph then the one used to breed Aurora. That would be about like saying that you had a contract to breed poodles, and then the other party decides to breed it with a cocker spaniel (To make cockaopoos). I don't think Luis has one inch of leg to stand on in court. He broke the written contract. I might add, in that contract it is stated that Aurora was to be bred to a Salmon boa, not a albino (big difference). As for Richard keeping the whole clutch, that would be his choice as I stated before. I feel that he would be within his rights. If I was in the same position as Richard, I don't know what I would do. But if Richard keeps all of them, he will not be looked down upon by me. That said, Richard I do wish you the best for Aurora. I can tell you care about her a lot.
You have my support as well, regardless of your decision.

 

[kmurphy]

I wasn't thinking along legal, or even moral grounds, when I said give Luis half the litter. I agree Neil, morally Rick doesn't owe Luis a thing and it really doesn't sit well with me that he gets anything out of this. I was thinking more of the future ramafications not following through.

Take this several years into the future. Luis is always going to be able to say "That Rick Charew, we had this breeding loan and he kept all the babies". The statement is always going to have a lot of impact with those that don't know the whole story. Sure Rick will be able to explain that there is more to the story but eventually it will just look like he's justifying screwing Luis out of his snakes.

I don't think it is worth it, that's all. If there are snakes born give Luis some and be done with it.

Kevin

 

[Griz]

I wasn't thinking along legal, or even moral grounds, when I said give Luis half the litter. I agree Neil, morally Rick doesn't owe Luis a thing and it really doesn't sit well with me that he gets anything out of this. I was thinking more of the future ramafications not following through.

Take this several years into the future. Luis is always going to be able to say "That Rick Charew, we had this breeding loan and he kept all the babies". The statement is always going to have a lot of impact with those that don't know the whole story. Sure Rick will be able to explain that there is more to the story but eventually it will just look like he's justifying screwing Luis out of his snakes.

I don't think it is worth it, that's all. If there are snakes born give Luis some and be done with it.

Kevin

Bah.....Not at all. If anyone expresses doubt he simply directs them to this thread. Problem resolved. It's not as big of a deal as some are making it out to be.

Griz

 

[Chameleon Company]

Neil, I don't disagree with your opinion about what Luis might deserve.

But, when you say this:

As soon as the judge found out that Luis has, "unclean hands", he/she will dismiss the case....

You are incorrect. The judge will look at this case, and the actions of those signatories to the contract within the framework specified. Neither is without fault, or "dirty hands", and it is a huge assumption to make that the judge will not rule on some division of assets and compensation within the intent of the contract.

One perspective that is very relevent here is the rule that "possession is 9/10ths of the Law". Luis could pursue his claim in Small Claims Court in Arizona, and probably get a favorable ruling within the limits of the court, the value lost, etc. That ruling would likely only apply to Rick's assets in AZ (none, or maybe only his deposit with Luis?). It also would not proceed until they have a resolution on the production of viable offspring, as that is the bulk of the claim.

But if the value claimed is high enough, and Luis wants to seek more money, and file a suit, this is where "possession" is critical. No attorney is going to do it pro-bono, unless he owes Luis a huge favor. No attorney is going to take a case like this on percentage, as there is not a big pot of gold to be had, or to pay if awarded ("can't get blood out of a turnip" rule). Not suing an insurance company here for max liability. Luis would have to pay the attorney up-front (many thousands if it goes to court), and sue for both his loss and legal fees, and even if he gets a ruling, you still can't get what is not there to be had. Luis will end up being out thousands. Luis won't do it, he can't afford it, and any attorney is going to advise Luis against it because of that. When Griz and others say "make him sue me", that is a very valid strategy to take, because for almost all practical purposes (and this gets kind of technical for a Small Claims Court resolution, since $ values are not easily established in a simple hearing, which is what SCC is geared for) Luis can't or won't mount a lawsuit. He who has the money rules, and if no one has the money, then as they say, "possession is ........".

 

[Griz]

But if the value claimed is high enough, and Luis wants to seek more money, and file a suit, this is where "possession" is critical. No attorney is going to do it pro-bono, unless he owes Luis a huge favor. No attorney is going to take a case like this on percentage, as there is not a big pot of gold to be had, or to pay if awarded ("can't get blood out of a turnip" rule). Not suing an insurance company here for max liability. Luis would have to pay the attorney up-front (many thousands if it goes to court), and sue for both his loss and legal fees, and even if he gets a ruling, you still can't get what is not there to be had. Luis will end up being out thousands. Luis won't do it, he can't afford it, and any attorney is going to advise Luis against it because of that. When Griz and others say "make him sue me", that is a very valid strategy to take, because for almost all practical purposes (and this gets kind of technical for a Small Claims Court resolution, since $ values are not easily established in a simple hearing, which is what SCC is geared for) Luis can't or won't mount a lawsuit. He who has the money rules, and if no one has the money, then as they say, "possession is ........".

Precisely, Watson. If he cannot afford to spend $50 to ship the animals then he will be laughed out of any attorneys office on such a trivial and "odds are stacked against me" claim. If there is no money, there is no suit. Plain and simple.

Griz

 

[ravensgait]

Kevin if anyone were to ask Luis about about Rick, I don't think that after this he'll have anything good to say no matter if he gets Zero, One or half the litter.

What a mess! hope that big girl does alright. Randy

 

[varnyard]

Kevin if anyone were to ask Luis about about Rick, I don't think that after this he'll have anything good to say no matter if he gets Zero, One or half the litter.

What a mess! hope that big girl does alright. Randy

Good point Randy! I would say, I would not be bothered with making Luis happy. IMO, these threads would tell anyone looking to buy from Richard, anything they needed to know.

Matt, I do also hope that everything works out for you as well. I hope these ball pythons are more than you expected.

Luis, I hope you have learned something from all of this. IMO, you need a different hobby, what about playing cops n robbers?

 

[Chameleon Company]

Hey Varnyard.

I just noticed this in your post:

Jim, I disagree with this. The male on the contract was a different morph then the one used to breed Aurora. That would be about like saying that you had a contract to breed poodles, and then the other party decides to breed it with a cocker spaniel (To make cockaopoos). I don't think Luis has one inch of leg to stand on in court. He broke the written contract. I might add, in that contract it is stated that Aurora was to be bred to a Salmon boa, not a albino (big difference).

Venturing into the hypothetical here, if for no other reason than to inform others who might wander into a situation like this in the future. You are right in that things did not go as originally agreed upon. But the statutes do not automatically provide a remedy as you indicate the path things would follow. If the contract had a specific clause covering "defaults", and it specified that one party could claim the assets, production, etc, then that would be pretty solid in court. If the judge were to look at the contract becoming null and void at a specific point in time, they then usually rule on some kind of division of assets as they existed at that point, considering many things such as negligence, attempts to defraud, possible statutory violations, etc. However, the incident which you cite was accepted by Rick at the time. The judge would look at communications at that time, whether Rick asked for a termination of the contract, change in distribution, etc. At the time, Rick was being a very good guy. He was also diminishing whatever legal standing he had if wanting to claim that he was going to petition the courts to declare the contract null and void, and seek compensation for that switch. Hypothetically, there is no basis on which to conclude that the court would rule completely in Rick's favor. They might give him half the "cockapoo's" and some extra bonus if they felt he was due the extra compensation. Its not that dissimilar to a divorce. Unless a major heinous felony is involved, assets are always split in some manner, regardless of who did what.