Luis Taracena (herphobbiest) bad deal

[Bill_Leverton]

Kevin you need to read more then the BOIAurora

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

Luis, surprise yourself, and have stool samples done of your snakes and see if they will culture salmonella. I am betting more than one will prove positive.
This is not a long term disease, it is a natural occurring thing in reptiles. Ask your vet about it if you wish.

You are not accused of "infecting it with salmonella". But, something happened while in your care, to cause the bacterium to manifest itself in great enough numbers to kill the snake. This is a fact.
Another fact. It could have happened any number of ways, as stated above.
Another fact. They were due to be shipped a long time ago when you first accepted the snake. (I am sure that holding the snake to see if it would do it's job for you, before you pay, was not part of the deal. This should never had made the BOI).
Another fact. You forgot in your above list a 0.1 CB '99 F3 Kahl albino. Obtained a Respiratory infection while in your care. Knowing what I do of RI's, they come from POOR HUSBANDRY first, stress second.
This to me does not rule out the possibility that poor husbandry on your part may have been the cause. But You are making it sound as if it couldn't possibly have been your fault, because you are such a great keeper of herps. "None of My others are sick". How would you know? This is the first time you have involved a vet that I know of. I've been talking to you for a year now. I know you do not do any type of routine check ups. You told Me this too. You have had other snakes die in your care as well. Just because Dr. Luis says "no need for necropsy, it died of such and such", does not mean this is fact. It is merely Dr. Luis's oppinion.

So I say again, You have delayed, prolonged, and dragged people through the muddy water long enough. You have tried every angle to not have to ship these Balls to Matt. You continue to connive, stall, and use your glib tongue to try to convince the world that everyone here is wrong, and you are the only right one in this deal. Now we have to wait for your doctor? Let Me guess, you will post an email later, where your doctor says it got this way 2 weeks before you received the snake. ???

I have waited long enough. Matt has waited MORE than long enough. If 10 working days was not long enough, (I gave you an extra one) than You should not have quoted it. This is one time line you are going to keep. (It's only because you don't have a choice, but it will be kept this time none the less.)

My part in this transaction is going to end on Monday, when I ship these Balls to Matt. And as for trying to convince us it couldn't possibly have been your fault. I don't think so. I for one will not buy anything you have to say after this.

Now, both of you need to publicly agree to this, and by so doing, it is in My hands, and I do not want to hear from either of you how I done you wrong because the outcome did not go YOUR way.

Agreed?


Rick

I AGREE 100%

Remember that? It's not going your way. Just man up and deal with it. If you do not like it "not going your way" than take it up in court. I am tired of this, and done talking. You have taken enough of our time.

Rick

 

[kmurphy]

Kevin you need to read more then the BOI

You're correct I should broaden my horizons. Congrats Rick.

 

[HerpHobbiest]

Richard,

Go ahead and ship the Ball Pythons.

This whole tread is NOT about the Ball Pythons. I do not even care to have or breed those Ball Pythons anyway. If the Balls were to come back to me... I would sell them and get rid of them anyway. I change my mind about breeding Balls a long time ago...

The issue at hand is that The Albino Boa I got from Matthew die.

• People seem to think I lack on proper care. (Because they have seen my set ups)

• Or that I did not provided heat, or my thermostat fail (What...???)

• Or maybe a Frozen >>> Thaw >>> Frozen >>> Thaw >>> Frozen >>> Thaw Rat infected the Albino I got from Matthew.

• And a number of other thinks that are too silly to try and remember

"In fact I am being accused of infecting it with salmonella".

From some of the questions that I have ask...

Salmonella is a nasty little species of bacteria because it actually invades cells, so a lot of antibiotics can't touch it. Plus because it invades cells it has the ability to get into bloodstream (septicemia) and quickly spread to lots of other organs.

There are a ton of species of Salmonella, and some don't cause much of a problem while others are really nasty. I think it's safe to assume your albino had a nasty species (or he was severely immuno compromised)

Anyways I just want to find out Were things started to go wrong? How I infected it? Was it stress from shipping that caused the immunological system to allow a septicemia infection or was it stress form me putting him with my female Pastel Het Albino? How is it that I kill this healthy, flawless snake?

Matthew say he would stand 100% behind his animal. And I do not doubt that.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Luis,
Look, all of your concerns about wanting to know how the animal died in your care are valid. Much has been speculated, and as you point out, is only speculation. But at this stage of the game, if you didn't first see the problem coming with an ill snake, and get it diagnosed and attempt to treat it before death, or get a necropsy done on a fresh-dead snake (not frozen), then the opportunity that was lost for answers is on you, and you alone, and all the responsbilities attached to it. If you could not afford a vet or a timely necropsy, so be it. But your wanting to try to get answers now, when looking at the original TOS of this deal, brings things back to square-one for many of us, which is that the original agreed-upon and prudent timelines were not followed. The shame is not just that the snake died, but that the opportunity to pinpoint a cause, and prevent it from happening again, if possible, was wasted as well. How's it go ... "an opportunity missed is an opportunity lost"?
Rick, mixed results but Mama seems to be doing OK, and you have some return on investment. Good luck.

 

[Junkyard]

Richard,

Go ahead and ship the Ball Pythons.

Rick, you have his permission in writting, the ball pythons are to be shipped.

This whole tread is NOT about the Ball Pythons.

Actually Luis, you are wrong, this thread is about the ball pythons. How did you miss that? This thread started because YOU did not ship them out to Matt like you were supposed to.

The issue at hand is that The Albino Boa I got from Matthew die.

This is the secondary issue, you should have shipped the ball pythons long before a problem occured with the albino boa.

People seem to think I lack on proper care. (Because they have seen my set ups)

Hmm, Rick has a sick snake that was in your care. No thinking needed there.

And a number of other thinks that are too silly to try and remember

Fo instance, you think this whole ordeal is a joke. A snake died, so what it happens right? No big deal. Does not matter if you did not pay for it(with a trade you did not follow through).

"In fact I am being accused of infecting it with salmonella".

No, you are being accused for not taking care of it properly. Did you feed it an unhealthy rat? It could have happened and you never would have known. If that was the case, I can see that happening.

Salmonella is a nasty little species of bacteria because it actually invades cells, so a lot of antibiotics can't touch it. Plus because it invades cells it has the ability to get into bloodstream (septicemia) and quickly spread to lots of other organs.

There are a ton of species of Salmonella, and some don't cause much of a problem while others are really nasty. I think it's safe to assume your albino had a nasty species (or he was severely immuno compromised)

You really do not know much about salmonella. There are not a ton of species(or strains) of salmonella. Salmonella can be effectively treated in reptiles without a lot of stress on the snakes. Maybe he was immuno compromised after being in your care. Lets remember you have snakes die and it is not big deal becasue that is a part of life. You are also a self proclaimed vet, so we should trust you know a thing or two about salmonella.

Anyways I just want to find out Were things started to go wrong? How I infected it? Was it stress from shipping that caused the immunological system to allow a septicemia infection or was it stress form me putting him with my female Pastel Het Albino? How is it that I kill this healthy, flawless snake?

So this snake was healthy and flawless when you received it? Stress may have been a factor. Proper care may have been a factor(especially if it caused retroactive growth of the salmonella to spread and kill the boa). Breeding takes a lot of work out of a snake, maybe a bit of quarentine for the standard three months, to make sure it was safe in it's new home before having it breed. That is a lot of stress and work for one snake.

In one week, it was put on a plane, flown a few hundred miles, put into a new cage it does not recognise, then put into another cage it does not recognise with another snake it does not know. All in one week? It does not breed right away for you, so you put it into another cage it does not recognise. Hello Luis, do you think you caused the snake a little stress?

Matthew say he would stand 100% behind his animal. And I do not doubt that.

That is saying a whole lot more about Matt than it will ever say about you! You have yet to prove you have been upstanding through this whole ordeal. You have come here posting your sales and those snakes you have bought and raised. No one cares about that, you know why, because people love gossip. One bad deal can through away one hundred good deals. How many snakes have died in you care? (That is a rhetorical question) You have proved you cannot be trusted to keep loan animals healthy, you have proved you cannot be trusted in a trade. I can what people think of you now when it comes to doing business with you. "Money first, NO trades, and No breeding loans." You will not come though with your end of the contract.

 

[HerpHobbiest]

Luis,
Look, all of your concerns about wanting to know how the animal died in your care are valid. Much has been speculated, and as you point out, is only speculation. But at this stage of the game, if you didn't first see the problem coming with an ill snake, and get it diagnosed and attempt to treat it before death, or get a necropsy done on a fresh-dead snake (not frozen), then the opportunity that was lost for answers is on you, and you alone, and all the responsbilities attached to it. If you could not afford a vet or a timely necropsy, so be it. But your wanting to try to get answers now, when looking at the original TOS of this deal, brings things back to square-one for many of us, which is that the original agreed-upon and prudent timelines were not followed. The shame is not just that the snake died, but that the opportunity to pinpoint a cause, and prevent it from happening again, if possible, was wasted as well. How's it go ... "an opportunity missed is an opportunity lost"?
Rick, mixed results but Mama seems to be doing OK, and you have some return on investment. Good luck.

See the thing is that the snake was not ill. The snake ate on Feb 11, 2006 and several days later it had an unusual stool. There was no way to collect any sample as it was dry in the newspaper.

Then on Tuesday Feb 21, 2006 it did it again. And I contack Matthew.

On Saturday night Feb 26, 2006 The snake was dead. There was no period of time in which the health of the snake degenerated and I ignored it. How would you have treated it? Even if I was to shcedule a day off it would have been the following week.

And I did not know freezing the snake would be a bad thing. I figure it was bettern than letting it rot. Can you imagine what would the snake look like in the 2 weeks it took me to find a place to have the necropsy done? LOL

Besides I did not break the agreement with Matthew to hold on to the Ball Pythons until we got the necropsy results. The results are done they are on the mail to come here. Then they will have to get traslated to terms we can understand.

How can you talk about prudent time lines? That delay is absolutely out of my power. I have nothing to do with it. That time frame was given to me and in turn to all of us. If any of you have something to say about that contact the Pathologist. That is just silly!!!

February 11
The Albino ate for the first time in my care. He ate a frozen-thaw large rat.

February 21
Second loose stool, cage was cleaned, disinfected with diluted Ammonia solution, rinsed. Snake was offered another frozen-thaw large rat and feed.

February 26
Snake is found dead at about 8:00PM and was refrigerated.

February 27
Snake was frozen. And has been frozen since

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

Richard,

Go ahead and ship the Ball Pythons.

Nice to have your consent, but it was happening anyway. In case you missed it...

My part in this transaction is going to end on Monday, when I ship these Balls to Matt.

As for the accusations. We have accused you of infecting that snake, no more than You have tried convincing us that it "couldn't possibly" have been your fault. Sorry Luis, but it is possible, (And IMHO likely) for that snake to have become ill while in your care.

You are trying to shun any blame, and lay it somewhere else. You have tried that since the beginning of this thread. The sad part is you think people cannot see this. Like yer too smart for us or something. You've contradicted yourself many times, and proven in pictures (that you posted) that you did not even use the male you said you were going to use with Me.

Too much stuff to start listing now that this is coming to an end. I hope You are learning from all this.

Rick

 

[Rebel Dragons]

The results are done they are on the mail to come here. Then they will have to get traslated to terms we can understand.

Why wait??? Post a pic or scan of the results as written by the vet as soon as you receive them. Did they arrive in todays mail perhaps?

There are enough people here that need no translation, Luis. If YOU (not we) need a translation, send out for one for YOUR personal use. Don't add more drama to this situation.

 

[Neil Gubitz]

Rick.... Could you post a pic of the new babies??.... I'm very interested to see what was produced.... Thanks....

Neil

 

[HerpHobbiest]

Why wait??? Post a pic or scan of the results as written by the vet as soon as you receive them. Did they arrive in todays mail perhaps?

There are enough people here that need no translation, Luis. If YOU (not we) need a translation, send out for one for YOUR personal use. Don't add more drama to this situation.

I guess after saying this like 10 times people still do not understand...

The results are being mail from the University of Arizona in Tucson AZ to my house. Once I get them I will have them faxed to a Reptile Vet. Then I will post both of them. There is no drama.

What I want is to have it heard from a professional. Not from the many DR Dolittle we have here at Fauna BOI... How many of you guys are actual Doctors of Veterinary Medicine???

Just wondering, Luis

 

[reptilebreeder]

Rick.... Could you post a pic of the new babies??.... I'm very interested to see what was produced.... Thanks....

Neil

Ummm, he did. In the appropriate thread. I believe there is a link a couple posts above.

 

[esoteric-lizard]

I guess after saying this like 10 times people still do not understand...

The results are being mail from the University of Arizona in Tucson AZ to my house. Once I get them I will have them faxed to a Reptile Vet. Then I will post both of them. There is no drama.

What I want is to have it heard from a professional. Not from the many DR Dolittle we have here at Fauna BOI... How many of you guys are actual Doctors of Veterinary Medicine???

Just wondering, Luis

do you have to be a veterinarian to understand basic anatomy & physiology, or microbiology?

... NO!

 

[liquidleaf]

Right. I can see asking a vet to explain a more rare condition that most of us may not have encountered before (x-y-z-itis). However, most of us have knowledge of many common ailments and know how serious (ie IBD, cancer) they are, or which are a result of husbandry mistakes (stomatitis, respiratory infection, necrotic dermatitis, septicemia).

You can get whichever vet you'd like to interpret the necropsy for you, however Matt and Rick do not have to listen to any vet friend of yours if the results are easily interpreted with a little knowledge of biology. Rick gave his conditions for determining whether he would ship out the ball pythons or not, and you agreed. That decision will ultimately lie with Rick, not your vet. Some vets do not have much experience with reptiles. Also, as far as I can recall, there ARE vets who frequent Fauna.

 

[Gecko_Den]

Go ahead and post the results, I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night so I will translate them for everyone....

 

[HerpHobbiest]

Right. I can see asking a vet to explain a more rare condition that most of us may not have encountered before (x-y-z-itis). However, most of us have knowledge of many common ailments and know how serious (ie IBD, cancer) they are, or which are a result of husbandry mistakes (stomatitis, respiratory infection, necrotic dermatitis, septicemia).

You can get whichever vet you'd like to interpret the necropsy for you, however Matt and Rick do not have to listen to any vet friend of yours if the results are easily interpreted with a little knowledge of biology. Rick gave his conditions for determining whether he would ship out the ball pythons or not, and you agreed. That decision will ultimately lie with Rick, not your vet. Some vets do not have much experience with reptiles. Also, as far as I can recall, there ARE vets who frequent Fauna.

Lauren,

I do not think you do not posses the knowledge for the issue at hand.

I will pay for a well respected Veterinarian with extensive Reptile Knowledge be the judge. This Vet is no friend of mine. I will pay for his services.

Why is this so difficult for you all to understand?

I honestly do not care about you guys best guess and/or personal opinions.

My deal here is with Matthew and Matthew alone.

In Regards to Richard, He already decided that he does not want to be the mediator anymore and he is going to ship the Ball Pythons to Matthew. Even that we have not seen the Necropsy report much less any interpretation if needed from James L. Jarchow, D.V.M. And that is Fine with me. Richard did not had to do any of this.

Luis T.

 

[HerpHobbiest]

Michael Shelton

I cant believe I had miss your post...

Actually Luis, you are wrong, this thread is about the ball pythons. How did you miss that? This thread started because YOU did not ship them out to Matt like you were supposed to.

The Ball Pythons were to be ship after the results of the necropsy came in. This is what was agree upon by Matthew and I.

No, you are being accused for not taking care of it properly. Did you feed it an unhealthy rat? It could have happened and you never would have known. If that was the case, I can see that happening.

If I feed it an un-healthy rat would not you think maybe other snakes in my collection would have health issues? I have been using the same rat supplier since 2001. So out of all the Rats I have ever bought from this company there is only one with Salmonella and came to kill Matt's flawless Albino. Is that what you are saying? Is that what you can see happening?

You really do not know much about salmonella. There are not a ton of species(or strains) of salmonella. Salmonella can be effectively treated in reptiles without a lot of stress on the snakes. Maybe he was immuno compromised after being in your care. Lets remember you have snakes die and it is not big deal becasue that is a part of life. You are also a self proclaimed vet, so we should trust you know a thing or two about salmonella.

Actually I do not know much about Salmonella. I never had an issue with Salmonella. What I do know is that there was 4 subspecies of Salmonella in cultivated form the Albino liver in the Report. If I am a self proclaim Vet why would I paid for a Vet Service??? Really

In one week, it was put on a plane, flown a few hundred miles, put into a new cage it does not recognise, then put into another cage it does not recognise with another snake it does not know. All in one week? It does not breed right away for you, so you put it into another cage it does not recognise. Hello Luis, do you think you caused the snake a little stress?

See what I mean? Please go back and re-read post #54 ...Read it a few times maybe you will get it!!! I was going to say something , but if you do not have the secuence of events by now you never will.

You have yet to prove you have been upstanding through this whole ordeal.

The only one I have to prove anything to is Matthew, Period. You guys are just expetators of this deal. I have nothing to prove to you. Nothing!

You have come here posting your sales and those snakes you have bought and raised. No one cares about that, you know why, because people love gossip. One bad deal can through away one hundred good deals.

I would agree with you there... However, I have enough happy costumers to make up. References I got them!!! And healthy snakes that dont die is what I sell. If it's not good enough for me to keep I will not sell it.

You have proved you cannot be trusted to keep loan animals healthy, you have proved you cannot be trusted in a trade. You will not come though with your end of the contract.

Maybe I can not control an RI when a snake is to travel 400 miles in a car from Arizona to Texas.... But you know what..... I CAN BREED THEM!!!

Please forgive me for having financial hardship... Please forgive me for getting 2 jobs and working 68 hours a week so I can repay my debt...

Hmmmm.... Whatever!!!

Matthew posted here because he thought that after the Albino Die I was not going to hold on to my end of the deal... I was busy working and it took me a while to get the dead Albino to have a necropsy done.

Now the necropsy is done, The Balls are going to Matthew. The thought of screwing Matt never even cross my mind... So let me ask you... What's your problem?

Have a nice night. Luis.

 

[Neil Gubitz]

Well, this thread gave me another good reason to CLOSE THE BORDERS!!

Neil

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

Well, this thread gave me another good reason to CLOSE THE BORDERS!!

Neil

Why don't you tell us how you really feel Neil.

 

[Neil Gubitz]

Rick.... If I did that, Rich would suspend me for TWO life sentences, to be served CONSECUTIVELY!!.... lol

Neil