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Mack snows.....

Just for the record....I think Alex has done the best possible job of preserving the market value. However, the prices being lowered of mack snows and super snows is inevitable because of supply and demand. I'm sure many new even more expensive morphs will be created out if it in the years to come preserving the investment of the people who have mack snows and super snows if they play their cards right.....:).
 
I want to make one thing clear. I have a TON of respect for Alex as a business person and a person in general. While I disagree with somethings that in no way lessens the value of his business or the work he's done with his animals.
 
dwedeking said:
No I wouldn't. That's not the issue. It's when you have more than one person agreeing on a set price for an item. If I was doing a new product that could be reproduced outside of my control I would be very careful that I sold to people I felt understood how to run a business, which means looking out for the return on investment. But I could not by law make them agree to a set price as part of the sales agreement.

I have no problem with protecting your investment, but there are proper ways of doing it.
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I don't think no one ever agreed to a set price on the future snow offspring. (could be wrong here) They were merely trying to protect themselves from being undersold. It would be a kick in the groin that if the breeders are asking for $1,000 or more for their young, for MR. Discount gecko (anybody, no one specific here) to half price them and get the people to pay $500 (or less) for them, then next year those people are trying to undersell him and so on. Thats how alot of good morphs wind up worthless in just mere years.
 
Alex is a smart guy and I'm sure he knows that price-fixing is illegal. Actually, the way I took his whole approach was that it wasn't so much about the money as it was about not letting the mack snow gene go the way that the poor patternless gene did a few years ago, and be used, abused actually, solely to generate income for unscrupulous breeders - gecko-mill bred to crank out viable product as fast as possible with no regard to the future of the morph, and introducing a bunch of genetic weaknesses and deformities into the lines as a result.
 
leaftail said:
Alex is a smart guy and I'm sure he knows that price-fixing is illegal. Actually, the way I took his whole approach was that it wasn't so much about the money as it was about not letting the mack snow gene go the way that the poor patternless gene did a few years ago, and be used, abused actually, solely to generate income for unscrupulous breeders - gecko-mill bred to crank out viable product as fast as possible with no regard to the future of the morph, and introducing a bunch of genetic weaknesses and deformities into the lines as a result.
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I agree 100% laura. Bad enough trying to find patty's Withour kinked tails to worry about the possibilty of snows going that route.

O yeah one more word for thought. Prehistoric pets and the Blazing Blizards. Imagine if they had a genetic snow :>Puke<:
 
Bringerofdoom said:
O yeah one more word for thought. Prehistoric pets and the Blazing Blizards. Imagine if they had a genetic snow :>Puke<:
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EXACTLY.
 
So, are we saying forms of price fixing equals "good ethics" or what? It never occurred to me that this might be a form of price fixing. I need to ponder on this topic a little more. . . .

I know they broke up monopolies, because they set prices without the benefite of the free market (Ma Bell). Everybody crabs at Bill Gates because he either eats his competition or bad mouths it to death - in the mean time, the majority of people get stuck with a sub-standard piece of software (except for us Apple users).

What's the difference? Alex works hard to keep the price up. He refuses some people the sales because he doesn't like their attitude - and if they get a hold of one - he and his counterparts successfully sink a reputation - and keep it under the water, whenever it tries to surface.

I'm not trying to cause problems. I'm just wondering how ethical it is to try and artificially maintain prices by what looks like price fixing? I suppose I had better go back through and try to pick up what I missed on this topic.

BTW - Steve - you had better be careful who you throw stones against. Everybody has cracks in their windows. It was only LOYAL friends and quick intervention that kept you from a similar situation.
 
Bringerofdoom said:
Also with alex's screening process, it was making sure the snow project had a good start. Instead of someone pairing it up with just a $25 mate and then turn around and command high value or bargain basement value.
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OK, here's a hypothetical. When I was breeding leos, I was working with developing a "tiger" line, very thick bordered jungles and line bred normals which had tiger stripes. They weren't worth very much - i bred them because I thought they were cool. I think they get 50-75 bucks a piece.

I think they would look KILLER in black and white. But since they are in a cheap morph, would he sell them to me? I think he would because I am a very good salesman (LOL) - but what if he didn't see the same vision I did. I have the money - a semi-decent rep - and good "ethics" - but a stock that some people think are ordinary.

Just a hypothetical - this is an interesting topic - and not meant to give a shot at anybody.
 
Oh, now, how can it be price fixing unless they're sterilizing all the leos before they sell them. speaking of which, I've been reading that some seed companines are genetically engineering their grain seeds to be sterile in the next generation, to ensure that people have to return to them for seeds. If you want to be mad at someone, go be mad at them. They're trying to get a monopoly on Wheat and Corn! I think that is really selfish. Mack snows, altho an addiction to some :) are not technically a necessity for life. So really, how much does it matter if the price stays high and/or not everyone who wanted one last year, got one. BTW, I'm one who didnt make the cut and you dont see me griping.
 
I think they would look KILLER in black and white. But since they are in a cheap morph, would he sell them to me? I think he would because I am a very good salesman (LOL) - but what if he didn't see the same vision I did. I have the money - a semi-decent rep - and good "ethics" - but a stock that some people think are ordinary.
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I think he would.

You know what, you are absolutely correct about price fixing, not only is it ethically wrong, but illegal as well (isn't it??). Haha you should dabble in the ball python market for awhile LOL. Exactly why H.I.S.S. is going to be getting out of high end ball pythons, too many secrets, too much back stabbing, and blackballing for that matter.

Alex is not price fixing. When I bought my snow he said not a word to me about what to price babies at. I understand and respect what he did with the snows. He was careful to release them to dedicated breeders that intended on DOING something with the morph, not just mass producing them (exactly what Laura P pointed out in her earlier post).

We as breeders can choose who we sell to and who we do not sell to. There are VERY few people in this hobby that I refuse to sell to, but there is a short list. That is my right, as a breeder. I am not going to sell one of my geckos to someone that has not the slightest idea how to care for them and is not willing to listen and learn. I also am not going to sell my geckos to someone that seemingly has every intention of purposely undercutting other breeders just because he can and because he doesn't like them. I also refuse to sell to someone that is rude and insulting to me, although in some cases I will take them off my list if a sincere apology is given.

It's not price fixing or blckballing, it's selective selling. And I understand it completely.
 
My take on the ethics:

I feel comfortable doing anything to the competition via how I control my own pricing/offerings, it crosses the line when I directly control how others price/offer products.

Examples:

Acceptable methods:
1. Not selling to someone that I feel will not market the product properly.
2. Dumping my prices to ruin the competitions ability to offer the same product to the consumer.
3. Flooding a market to gather a share of the market (thereby removing the competition).
4. Buying up a competitors on-hand stock so that it removes them from the market.

Unacceptable methods:
1. Only selling to a customer based upon them only selling at $X
2. Physically removing them from the market place
3. Libel to remove the competition (hell, I don't even bad talk the competitors that deserve it).
4. Telling a supplier that I won't carry XYZ if they sell to Company A

While some of the acceptable practices don't fall in the "nice" category, as long as my actions are upon my own products/offerings then I don't consider them unethical.

I believe a lot of the "hobbyists" or retail customers would be suprised how much this industry resembles an "old school bare knuckles match on the docks" when you get behind the scenes a little.
 
Daniel-

As far as your acceptable methods go, 1 and 4 I can understand and agree with, but:

2. Dumping my prices to ruin the competitions ability to offer the same product to the consumer.
3. Flooding a market to gather a share of the market (thereby removing the competition).
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That doesn't seem right!
 
Whatever happened to the love and respect for the gecko! It's not a commodity to be reckoned with...I believe if someone wants to barter or sell anything, everyone should have an equal opportunity to enjoy it! As far as market prices are concerned, to the highest bid etc., why don't you consider the corporate world! Who died and appointed you God?!
 
Kelli,

While I consider those tactics short sighted in terms of business for the most part, they are acceptable tactics in dealing with the competition. Most companies when they come into a market (for example when the Wal Mart first opened up to the present time) they will slash prices to build up a customer base. Then once they have established a base they will raise prices (you will see an increase in Wal Mart prices shortly as they change their focus from market share to increasing margins). Most small time breeders do this until they acheive a name for themselves.

Whatever happened to the love and respect for the gecko! It's not a commodity to be reckoned with...I believe if someone wants to barter or sell anything, everyone should have an equal opportunity to enjoy it! As far as market prices are concerned, to the highest bid etc., why don't you consider the corporate world! Who died and appointed you God?!
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Actually no one spoke of providing poor quality animals. Just the war of competition and how to deal with it. In our business plan we consider marketing and sales to be seperate from the concerns of animal care. We sat down with spreadsheets and started with the cost of care of the animals to the level we find acceptable. Those are hard costs that we don't cut corners on. From this point on I accept those numbers as written in stone when it comes to figuring prices and competing. This keeps my competitive nature from overriding the care that Wendy provides our animals (both personal and business ones).
 
I think that Mack snows will follow down the same road as the albinos. Within the next few years the regular co-doms and supers will drop dramatically. If this morph is compatible with traits like hypo, bold stripe, etc., these Mack snows will continue to command top dollar just like the Hybinos, etc.

-Alice
 
Dan-

I realize that the tactics you speak of are regularly used in the business world (especially with big coorporations). I think that when working with animals one should conduct themselves with a little more morals. Why? I don't know why!

I have always said I am a hobbiest first and foremost, and not cut out to be a business person (regarding my geckos that is). I am too honest, respectful of others, and love and respect my animals too much to be that way.

Please do not take offense to this Dan. You have your way of doing things, and I realize there is nothing illegal about it or anything like that.
 
Dwedeking--

My quote contradicts to what you are advocating: fixed prices and 'according to the market.' Equal is the operative word. Thank you for reinforcing my beliefs, however, they are irrelevant to yours.
 
I am too honest, respectful of others, and love and respect my animals too much to be that way
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Actually Kelli, you'd find our attitudes on the animals similiar. I'm just able to seperate that attitude when it comes to competitors. There are tons of people I've met in the industry that I'd give the shirt of my back to assist even though they are direct competitors. I also realize that it can be a mean industry and you adjust your tactics to survive against those competitors that play the game that way.

My quote contradicts to what you are advocating: fixed prices and 'according to the market.' Equal is the operative word. Thank you for reinforcing my beliefs, however, they are irrelevant to yours.
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I don't understand your point. I'm not advocating any fixed prices. I'm advocating a free competitive marketplace. Things are not equal though. And while that can be frustrating it is the board we have chosen to play on.
 
Price fixing is immoral and illegal. However Alex stating that he would not be the first to lower the asking price is very reassuring. He is allowing for a competitive marketplace where breeders hand picked for their ethics will create and expand the market.
 
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