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MARK MILLER IS A THIEF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Corey Woods said:
If I were in the same situation and bred someone else's animals together and produced offspring I would keep babies back for my trouble. I'm not defending Mark in any way and I personally think the guy is a complete scammer. However, I would not breed someone elses animals and expect to get nothing for my hours of labour and trouble.

Given the situation I think what Mark kept back for himself was fair. As I said if I were in the same situation I would have kept back the same animals for myself for the trouble.
Click to expand...

I usually don't jump into these things if they have nothing to do with me, but I strongly disagree with the above viewpoint (as I'm sure most others will, too).

Yes, Mark did take time and effort to breed those boas, but you seem to forget two important facts:

1.) the boas were not his to breed, at least not with each other.
2.) he did not ask permission to breed those boas with each other from the owner. Mark did not ask him to expend that time and trouble. He took it upon himself and essentially "volunteered" his time and trouble to breed them, so he has no right to expect any compensation.
 
I think the value of the animals produced play the biggest role in this situation.

I think the only possible thing Mark should be compensated on is a fair market value for breeding two boas together that are completely NORMAL genetically and producing the number of animals that were produced, divided by 2. I say this because even though the boas are "morphs" (both the parents and the offspring) it doesn't mean the work that went into breeding them was any harder or easier than if the boas (parents and offspring) were normals.

After Mark is awarded the monetary value of half of a normal litter, I think Mark should be sued for breach of contract.

I think it could be argued that Mark actually owes Ray money for his opportunity cost. If Mark had been upfront and let Ray know that the original male didn't take, Ray could have found another animal (possibly) and produced what he was looking for and those animals would have a greater value than the animals that were produced. Another opportunity cost is the value of the offspring that could be produced this upcoming season that may have to wait another year because the female isn't ready. We all know 1 season can mean thousands and thousands in the morph market. Or if she is breedable, she may have a lower fertility/fecundity rate. These ideas certainly won't be the basis of any lawsuit, but I think it shows that Mark HAS in fact stolen something from Ray, and that is the opportunity to do what he wants with his own animals.

Best of luck to you Ray. I don't envy your position.
jb
 
Ray,

You can talk to the district attorney but in this situation I think you will be hard pressed to file charges.

Mark did all the work to "make" the babies and you expected not to pay him anything for his work. Basically you want all the babies for free. In my eyes that is not right.

I don't think this case would even make it to court.

Corey
PS I don't normally do breeding loans but a guy in the Phillappeans asked me to breed his male to his females for him last year. 3 of the females produced offspring and I kept back animals from each of the litters for my trouble. I wasn't going to work for free and on the flip side the guy in the Phillappeans didn't expect me to work for free either.
 
Mr. Woods,
You were requested to do a certain pairing, you fulfilled your contract as requested. Mr. Miller was requested to do something different than what he did, he did not fulfill his contract as required.
Can you see a difference here?
If not then your ethical standards are also questionable.
 
John,

I ask you this would it have been better for Mark to allow Ray's female to slug out because said male wouldn't breed said female? How would you like to split a litter of slugs?

Corey.
 
When you enter into a contract you honor the contract. Speculation on the outcome of honoring the contract is just that, speculation.
 
The lesson of this to everyone is don't do breeding loans. One party always comes out feeling like they got ripped off......signed contract or not.

If the female produces babies the owner usually feels like more babies were produced than what was presented and the breeder is keeping back an unfair amount for themselves.

If the female doesn't produce offspring the owner feels like the female produced offspring and the breeder is hiding that fact to keep all of the babies for themselves.

If the animal dies in the breeders possession then that opens up a whole new can of worms. Did the breeder kill the animal or was the animal going to die anyways regardless of who's place they were at? Who is responsible?

If the pair in question won't breed what other alternative males do you use?

How do you fairly split the litter if an uneven amount of morphs are produced? What if only 1 baby hatches or is born?

If no babies are produced does the breeder still get compensated for all of his time spent with the animals.

Who pays for the food bills......this is especially important if no babies are produced to split and the breeder is paying to feed your animal(s).

All of the above complicate breeding loans. The quickest way to ruin a friendship is to do a breeding loan.

Corey
 
Please do not place Corey at the same level as Mark.He is one of the good guys and one of the leading ball python breeders in Canada.Certianly not a person trying to rip people off or make scams.
Corey if you were doing a breeding loan and the terms of that loan didnt work out would you consult the other person before attempting another pairing?I know you would.
If the person did not agree to the new pairing idea's & terms and said no would you still go ahead and breed them anyways?I know you wouldnt.
The problem in Marks case is that he did not contact the other person before attempting a different pairing.But the problem with the contract is that it does not state that their is not to be any other pairings attempted at all or before consulting the other person if the first pairings did not work out.I would add this clause to a contract if i didnt want any other pairings to take place at all or without me being consulted first.
If I were Mark in this case I would have contacted Ray before hand and came to another agreement before placing a new pairing together.If Ray said no then that is that.
Todd Peddle
 
Mr. Peddle,
At this point I will take your word for Mr. Woods’s ethical standards though his own words thus far would seem to belie your statements.
In any case this thread is not about Mr. Woods, or his ethics, but rather it is on Mr. Miller and his lack of ethics.
Mr. Miller entered into a specific contract. He violated that contract and is attempting to profit from that violation.
Such behavior displays a level of dishonesty that only people with similar ethical standards could be comfortable with.
A person who can lie to themselves and justify their own bad behavior can commit any crime known to man and justify it with a lie.
 
I disagree completely with your view point on this one Corey. Stating he is owed for his work done, work he was not requested to do is no different then the scam artists who show up at little old ladies doorsteps with a bill for unsolicited work on their homes. I'm sure since you're mindset is work whether requested or not is due payment, then you wouldn't mind if someone shows up and paints your house for you and then presents you with the bill for work rendered.
 
Randy, is this your way of saying I won't be getting paid for pimping your minivan while you were on vacation?
 
I will refer back to my previous statement in regard to Corey. I think you are an idiot. If you were in my shoes right now you would be singing a different tune.

Anyone who can look at the FACTS that are posted here and still side with Mark is an IDIOT and never someone I would EVER do business with.

You and Jason have shown why people like Mark Miller continue to do the things they do with no consequence.
 
It is also very funny that Mark now has money to refund to the other people he has screwed. I wonder how he got the money??? My hunch is he sold the female motley het-snow. But who would buy it.... Hmmmm. I have a guess, but I will keep it to myself till I can prove it.
 
Corey, I am going to be kind here and give you some benefit of the doubt. If you truly would keep back some of the babies, on a breeding you did not seek permission for, then that benefit is out the window and I would lump you into the same category as Mark. If, however, you would have requested permission first to do the breeding and received said blessing, then yes, you deserve compensation.

I think what you are failing to recognize is the fact that Mark bred these two animals without any permission from Ray. In addition, what type of idiot would say sure Mark, breed my two animals together and I will split the litter with you? Wouldn't it be much wiser to simply tell Mark to send the animals back so that the actual owner could do the breeding? That is the exact reason why Mark never sought permission. He knew Ray would not approve of the breeding as Mark was not adding anything of value to the equation.

Now, with the above facts mentioned, do you still hold the same opinion? If yes, then I assure you there are a lot of people who will NEVER do a breeding loan with you. You've set yourself up for this criticism and only you can reassess your position.

Griz
 
Well, calling everyone an idiot that disagrees with you sure does make you look like someone I'd trust. :thumbsup: Personally, I think this thread says both of you guys should be avoided.
 
Well, calling everyone an idiot that disagrees with you sure does make you look like someone I'd trust. Personally, I think this thread says both of you guys should be avoided.
Click to expand...

:iagree:
 
Well the last time I checked I am entitled to my opinion. As are you. If you were in my shoes you would be very offended by this lack of common sense. Everything I have stated here is FACT. I have shown this.

If you choose not to do business with me because of my opinion that is your loss.
 
raybueno said:
Everything I have stated here is FACT.
Click to expand...

Actually a lot of what you have stated as "FACT" is in reality your opinion. I can understand you are upset, but calling people names and lashing out at anyone who doesn't 100% agree with everything you say is juvenile and not helping your cause.

And another thing, since you are all about expressing opinions, you should consider that half of the responsibility for this mess falls squarely on your shoulders. It's not like there wasn't documented incidents of mark miller and his shady dealings prior to you entering a breeding contract with him. Your lack of due diligence and/or poor judgment/greed is what got you into this situation.
 
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