Mark Miller of Loco-Lizards Liar and a Thief

[johnmartino]

Mark you can continue here with your lies if you like but i and some others know better. You never said refund, you said compensation of another snake. You stopped answering my calls well before legal action was threatened and that's why i'm even looking into that avenue. Sorry, but i wasnt willing to just walk away from $6500. I will exhaust every option to recoup some of it. Keep it honest? What a joke coming from you! Your good heartedness? Please? You totally took advantage of me. You took everything and gave me nothing. I dont care about anything that happened before May 1st. You knew everything that happened and still took him back. Maybe some people here are naive enough to think you did it to help me. Others are not naive enough to think that i would send back a $6500 snake without the promise of compensation. Also i didnt call your customers. They called me. When they heard you were giving me a refund they were worried that you were going to give me something that wasnt yours. Unfortunately people are not willing to get involved as they are still hoping to get what you owe them. They are worried that if they state the truth you will not honor their deals either. As far as your family was involved, when you refuse to contact me, i tried other number hoping to reach you thinking they were yours. Also as far as people needing proof. You keep screaming proof as you know all we had were verbal discussions. When you finally decided to send an email, which we were well into a problem at this point, i guess you had spoken to someone, so when i received them they were already full of lies which i replied to you with the correct discussions and information but at that point it was also clear to me you were back pedalling and trying to cover your path with lies. There are also other people who heard you say you owe me compensation but again are unwilling to get involved. I know you will scream who. But you actually know full well who they are. And as far as some people thinking i am only out the $1500 cash i sent. Please dont let them put a value on what i produced. If my babies are valuless maybe they can send me all of what they produced for free as anythiing someone produces is valueless as far as they are concerned. And lets not forget i paid you $2300 for that coral albino female as a baby. So you actually beat me twice. Also good people going on to say the truth shouldnt be attacked for doing so. Just because you are a liar doesnt mean anyone who thinks you are wrong is also a liar.

 

[johnmartino]

Laura,

I appreciate the points you have made. I also agree a necropsy is extremely important and that is why Mark should have done so since the animal died in his possession after 2 months and he was the only one of us that was aware of it's death.

As far as quarantine was concerned I trusted Mark who knew my intention to breed it once received and that trust was a mistake. However, if I quarantine for 90 days with the same issues I still would have been out of Marks tos at that point.? I normally do quarantine all incoming animals but in this instance I was acquiring the animal specifically because I was told it was courting and i needed it for this breeding season. I did have the animal a few weeks with it holding down it's second meal before I tried to breed it. when it did not court or breed i immediately put it into quarantine where it stayed until it was shipped back to mark. I agree quarantine is important and that may have been a mistake on my part that will not be made again... I do want to point out that the issues with that particular snake appear to be it's own since the 1 and only snake i exposed it to is still completely healthy and has been vet checked.

i am more than willing to take my ego out and find the middle ground with mark but he still refuses contact. maybe with the power of the boi this matter can come to a resolution.

 

[AF Exotics]

I totally agree with Laura's post .It is to the point .As an almost neutral party(had one dealing with John several years back,when I still had Boas),you can see mistakes made on both sides .The only nagging question I have as an observer,is why would Mark ever take the snake back,if he states that he was well aware it would die,and says also that John knew it would die,.....Why take it back? I am curious to a reason more than the simple act of kindheartedness benevolence explained .I may sound callous,but I wouldn't want a snake back that I felt was going to die,not only for the safety of my collection,best quarantine is not allowing any sick animal in your house,let alone any strict quarantine procedure,but also the undue stress of shipping it again .Taking it back voids the transaction,and seems to place accountability on you now for assuming the responsibility of it's care .JMHO.Marcus Q.

 

[Griz]

People, please stop the whole quarantine/breeding argument. There is no validity to it with regards to this complaint. Yes, John should have quarantined it but let's be honest, most people don't when it comes to needing a breeder male/female right here right now. And, his explanation, based upon the info Mark provided, is completely acceptable. You and I are small time breeders and we obviously follow a stricter standard. But, reality is bigger breeders don't. Anyways, leave it alone as it's only serving to distract from the real issue at hand.

Mark, here's some simple questions for you:

1) Mark, can you show this board any emails from you (along with headers) that were dated prior to July whereby you stated you would not be issuing a refund?

2) Are you stating for the record that you, neither in email or voice, never promised to make this right by giving John a credit?

3) Do you currently owe anyone else substantial amounts (+$500) of money for breeder animals received in yet did not produce this year?

4) Did you tell anyone other then John and his one witness on this board, that you owed him a credit?

5) Why did you not call John to let him know the animal had died?

Mark, think very carefully about how you answer these questions. I'll be perfectly blunt. I think you're lying. It makes NO sense to take this animal back. It makes no sense, other than to paint a distorted picture, to use verbage such as:

Me being the kind hearted individual I am and simply trying to keep a customer happy and look out for the well being of the animal,

unless you are trying to hide reality. Your explanation simply does not hold water.

To the BOI......think about it. What motivations would John have to come on here and tell the board that he failed to quarantine? After all, there were no emails communications between him and Mark so it's not like it could have been proven. John has repeatedly admitted his failures here. Mark, has made nothing but excuses and it simply does not pass the common sense test. Mark agreed to take the animal back but for what purpose? To be kind? An offer was made by Mark and accepted by John. When Mark accepted delivery of the animal then a new contract was entered into. This is not rocket science to see through this.

Keep your ears open folks as there is a lot of info being discussed outside of the BOI.

Griz

 

[AF Exotics]

Agreed,I don't pay any attention to that part of this as a transaction,just an error in judgement,that could or could not have been a contributing factor in the demise of the animal.No necropsy,no ability to place blame on either party medically.I just do not think there is any transaction left when you take the animal back.

Now Mark suggests he did it out of benevolence,but I still have a hard time swallowing that as just a casual observer reading this.Maybe I'm getting cynical,but it seems like alot of risk to accept,which if something goes wrong,well it is now on your lap,especially two months later.I hope these guys work this out.Really do.

 

[Greg Riso]

Professional Courtesy and Then Some

From one breeder of high end boas to another, Mark should try his best to take care of this situation or his reputation will be permanently tarnished. This thread is here for all to see and anyone that's naive enough to buy another high end animal from Mark Miller is taking a big risk knowing they could have the same scenario happen to them.
It appears Mark is going to take the, "I'm going to stick my head in the sand and hope this goes away approach." If he offered a credit of $6,500 towards a bloody hypo or whatever, it's not to late to do so.
If Mark was using the male blood in question for breeding purposes prior to selling it to John, did he actually produce a litter from it? Kinda makes me think he knew it was going to flop over because he knew it had issues so he dumped it before HE TOOK THE HIT. It makes sense he would not want a paper trail (e-mails on record) and would promise the world over the phone, knowing there would be no proof of what was said afterwards.
Call it theory and conjecture on my part, but the people on this board and those that read it are a hell of a lot smarter than Mark gives credit.
It's not to late to save your rep Mark and I think it's in your best interest to do so. In the long run you'll come out way ahead. Anything less and you're just shooting yourself in the foot.

 

[hunterreptiles]

Mark Miller Liar

First of all , I never said you offered a refund, What i said you said quote:is that you owed him a credit, So If your going to quote me please read carefully! I know what I heard. I don't know why you just don't get on the phone with John and work this out on a fair ground for both of you. You are both trying to achieve the same goals as breeders and you should honor what you verbally promised. A good business man does what he can to make things right.
And also John would not be so up in arms about this unless he was done wrong. And if he thought the snake was in that much distress I think he would have added the couple of dollars onto the shipping and brought it to a vet, But he was sending it back for a credit, If You could not help it and it died without ever going to a vet in your care. And John wasn't even told until 2 months later COME ON!!!
Mark : You know what you said!

Reguards, Fred& Debbie
Hunterreptiles

 

[Griz]

Can someone check the dates on the pictures of the blood that Mark submitted?

Griz

 

[romad119]

Half of what anyone is saying is conjecture. He said/she said, as I earlier said. At any point did any party think: Hmmm, there is some difficulty here, maybe I should get some of this in back or white?

Some of you would be screaming this if it were lesser known businesses. It still applies here and will on the legal side IMO.

To me the only part resting on Mark is that he accepted the snake back. I'm not sure what this falls under in the legal beagle side of a business transaction. Stating why in this case is highly opinionated unless its in an email chain that we aren't seeing.

 

[TheKeeper]

My name is Mark Miller of The Gecko Basement. I breed leos, o. castlenaui and veiled chams. I do not have anything to do with this thread and just wanted to make that clear. All my herps have legs.lol.

 

[garweft]

My name is Mark Miller of The Gecko Basement. I breed leos, o. castlenaui and veiled chams. I do not have anything to do with this thread and just wanted to make that clear. All my herps have legs.lol.

It's no fun having a common name is it.

I know how you feel.

 

[Bueno Bros]

I agree with Romad119

I would say that all of this is he said/she said. It also appears that many of you are making very harsh judgements against one or both of the two involved. Ultimately there were two people involved and they are the only people who know the truth. Rushing to judgement and calling people names when you are unaware of the truth is just plain stupid, you make yourself look like a fool.

I have a lot of people in this business that I consider friends BUT, BUSINESS IS BUSINESS. If you cant tell a friend that something is wrong then maybe you should reconsider who your friends are. If I purchased anything for $6500.00 dollars and it started to show signs of problems within the first week or two, I would be on the phone, friend or not.

I also do not understand why taking the animal back to try and help would in any way void the TOS? The TOS state 2weeks, not four months.

This is a very sad situation. Whether you think Mark is telling the truth or John is telling the truth, I have yet to see one shred of proof from anyone validating either story. Until that happens, I will keep my judgements to myself. I will continue to do business with Mark as I have never had a problem with him, and if I see something that John has that I want, I will do business with him as well.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Griz]

I would say that all of this is he said/she said. It also appears that many of you are making very harsh judgements against one or both of the two involved. Ultimately there were two people involved and they are the only people who know the truth. Rushing to judgement and calling people names when you are unaware of the truth is just plain stupid, you make yourself look like a fool.

I have a lot of people in this business that I consider friends BUT, BUSINESS IS BUSINESS. If you cant tell a friend that something is wrong then maybe you should reconsider who your friends are. If I purchased anything for $6500.00 dollars and it started to show signs of problems within the first week or two, I would be on the phone, friend or not.

I also do not understand why taking the animal back to try and help would in any way void the TOS? The TOS state 2weeks, not four months.

This is a very sad situation. Whether you think Mark is telling the truth or John is telling the truth, I have yet to see one shred of proof from anyone validating either story. Until that happens, I will keep my judgements to myself. I will continue to do business with Mark as I have never had a problem with him, and if I see something that John has that I want, I will do business with him as well.

Just my 2 cents.

It's called a BS meter. If anyone knows either of these two individuals, I happen to know them both, then you would know that Mark is not going to be able to do something that John could not. They are both well known in the herp community and I am sure that both of them would have utilized the same procedures. With that in mind, why in the world would John send it back to him if it were not for a credit?

For that matter, I want to know if there are any emails from you Mark prior to July? In my dealings with John I know he prefers voice to emails. Mark is easy to get a hold of either way. I want to see the emails Mark where you said no refunds (include the headers) and I want to see that they were before July.

Something stinks here and the BS meter is going wild, that's for sure.

Griz

PS There was nothing for John to report in the first few weeks. Regurge is not necessarily indicative of a problem nor is going off feed during breeding. When you add up the fact that Mark stated this animal was actively breeding then one could very easily surmise that the "symptoms" were normal. It would appear that as soon as something looked amiss that John contact Mark.

 

[Bueno Bros]

A regurge is VERY indicitive of a problem, and John should have called Mark immediately to let him know. To the best of my knowledge Mark saying the male was activly breeding is hearsay. Non the less why would any animal that regurged whether in the first or second week of ownership be placed into a breeding program.

For $6500.00 there ar NO "symptoms" that are normal.

 

[boaholic]

exactly greg we are smarter then what he give us credit for just read what he said about me he makes it sound like im a window licker but fails to state why my snakes were in a holding pin/cage if any care to check im sure the local animal control unit here in my town surly have a record(s) of there visits to my house and visably seening my reptiles and stating there in pefrect health and properly housed and escape proof since i have my kids in the house they have to be double locked cages and i have heard from people that know me as well as him they have all stated the mark does not like compation theres been a few times were i looked at him for trying to report me to animal control to shut me down or think he wood get my boas for some reason i know were all the seized retiles go here and im at the top of the list they call to see if i can house and care for a seized reptile or relocate it to a good home. mark do you honestly think if thos pix depicted my practices that all these people would still be contacting me? i have even sold my own offspring that i have produced to several law enforcement officers in diffrent agencies and they have all been here in person to pick there reptile out.. they never seen anything like your describing you graipe about these people slandering your good name well look at what your doing to me lol call the kettle black why dont ya jeez this so called slander thing with other breeders about other bredders is what keeps me from setting up at the local reptile shows i take that stuff personel and i have gotten in other vendors faces after a show in the parking lot for what they were telling potential customers about me and my animals . the potential customers were the ones that pointed it/them out to me all because im the cheapest vendor there everyone else gets mad cause they dont sell theres
repeat bizzness is better then a one time buyer so i think and its less overhead too.
this is another two cents of mine..... so now im out four cents
...but i still have plenty of common cents

 

[DThomas]

Can someone check the dates on the pictures of the blood that Mark submitted?

Griz

The EXIF info has been removed from the pictures. No way to date them.

 

[shiked]

here's a post mark made with that picture dated 11/30/2006

http://redtailboas.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28301

 

[Griz]

A regurge is VERY indicitive of a problem, and John should have called Mark immediately to let him know. To the best of my knowledge Mark saying the male was activly breeding is hearsay. Non the less why would any animal that regurged whether in the first or second week of ownership be placed into a breeding program.

For $6500.00 there ar NO "symptoms" that are normal.

No, what I said was a regurge is not necessarily indicative of a larger problem. Obviously, it's something you have to take careful stock in but it also does not have to mean a serious issue. John didn't worry too much about it but that's not the point here and arguing it is pointless. The issue at hand is Mark taking the animal back. Plain and simple.

Griz

PS Go back and reread Mark's posts. He clearly states he had been breeding for him just before shipping.

 

[ravensgait]

Well as they say possession is nine tenths of the law!! though that other tenth can be a real bitch at times. Randy

 

[KCRD.com]

Never had a problem....

Mark and I have done several transactions together and zero have had any issues. Mark has always stood behind his animals.

A little over a year ago I purchased a male Spider and a extremely nice female Lemon Pastel. Both animals were flawless when I received them, about three weeks after I got them the female Pastel started to act funny, she was "cork screwing" and freaking out when anyone touched her. I informed Mark of this and he immediately showed concern and offered any help he could provide, I informed him I was going to take her to my vet and see what he said. After some blood tests and a couple weeks of different treatments it was determined that she had developed a brain tumor. I informed Mark of this and he was very sympathetic and offered to "make it right" however being a breeder and dealer myself I know that he had absolutely nothing to do with her tumor and I couldn't morally expect him to do anything since he could not have known she would develop the condition, the animal was perfect in every way when I got her from him.

My point is this, as mentioned earlier in this thread when dealing with live animals there are losses, there is no guarantee how long any of these animals are going to live, and just because one animal cost $6500 and another is $100 shouldn't mean that one gets a different set of guide lines. There are risks involved when dealing with living animals and unfortunately death is one of them. Just because Mark offered to take the snake back shouldn't make him responsible for it's death, especially considering it's pre-existing condition before he got it back. I know that I have had some animals that I have gotten from other breeders that I know I was more than capable of taking care of but when I got them they developed eating problems, I have sent them back to their previous owners to eventually get them back eating again. These animals can be very finicky at times. I can't tell you how many car rides I've given to non feeding Ball Pythons and Boas to get them to eat again, some times it works and some times it doesn't. It seems that Mark taking this snake back is being used against him instead of it being seen as a last effort to save the snake.

My last comment on this post will be this, at what point during a sale does the seller's responsibility stop and the owner's begin? I say at the end of the seller's TOS, and this shouldn't be voided out if the seller is trying to help get the animal back on track well after the TOS has expired. I think expecting a seller to compensate you for an animal that you bought several weeks ago, let alone several months ago is asinine and just not fair.