Mark Miller of Loco-Lizards Liar and a Thief

[romad119]

This is a link to the page on my site containing the TOS.
http://locolizards.com/contact.htm

and this is what they state


Mark Miller

John,

If thats the TOS that you purchased the snake under, then anything above and beyond that, that isn't in writing is going to end up as one's word versus another. Doesn't sound good but it is what it boils down to.

Do to the nature of the participants (well known breeder and well known breeder) I can forsee where there feels like there should be better resolve or willign to compromise but it looks to be boiling down to seller vs. buyer.

 

[monkeywrench133]

After 2 ½ months he still hadn’t fed. At this point mark called me for the DOB of the 06’ sunglow. I proceeded to tell him about the Blood male not feeding and starting to look worse.

John, is this statement accurate? Did you have the animal in your possession for 2 1/2 months without it feeding before Mark became aware that there was a problem?

And during that time you did not have it examined by a vet, correct?

 

[Bueno Bros]

Mark Miller

My brother and I have made numerous purchases and trades with Mark and never had any problems. I have never known Mark to not stick to what he said he would do. Mark has always treated us fairly. I do think there are two sides to every story though, and we are only getting half.

 

[johnmartino]

Mark, You continue with the lies. But I expected that, yet am willing to eat them so no one else gets screwed like me. We spoke of a trade for the Bloody Salmon female. You valued her in the $16,000-$17,000 range. You were giving me a $6500 credit and I was making up the difference with animals in my Lipstick line Sunglow litter. What about the other animals promised?

Alan: I understand what you are saying but to me the TOS kind of goes out the window when someone promises compensation and takes the snake back.

Erin: You continue to ask the same questions that are already posted and get the same answers. Why doesnt Mark post the pictures of the Blood male breeding that were in his ad when he was posting him for sale? That was the entire reason for me purchasing him. And we all know that breeding males do not eat. So I didnt think he was ill just refusing food due to breeding for Mark. as for everything else, Mark knew all about it yet took the snake back. And again HE TOOK THE SNAKE BACK with the promise of compensation.

Ray: I am glad everything worked out for you with Mark. Believe it or not Mark and I have actually done business before. Things went well that time. Thats why I was so suprised with this trandsaction. But I guess its easy to be a good guy when things are good. Its how you react when things are not so good that shows your true character.

 

[garweft]

Am I the only one that sees this...

A newly acquired boa regurgitates it's second meal, and instead of keeping it in quarantine, it gets introduced to an established collection?

Was this animal ever even in quarantine?

 

[johnmartino]

As i said in my original post. It regurged it FIRST meal and KEPT DOWN the SECOND meal. Please read MY POST CAREFULLY. It was purchased as a breeder from someone i trusted and had done business before. Whether i quarantined or not, or colored the animal purple, Mark knew IN FULL THE DEAL with this animal. AND HE TOOK IT BACK!!!!!!

 

[romad119]

There is a point there. When you accepted the snake back, Mark, from your side what were the conditions?

 

[monkeywrench133]

Erin: You continue to ask the same questions that are already posted and get the same answers.

Ok, let me try a different question then: If Mark hadn't happened to call after 2 1/2 months, at what point were you going to contact him, if at all, to tell him there was a problem with the animal?

 

[fish21]

this is just my .02 after hearing both sides of the story. i alloways like to listen to both people then find that middle ground.

first off people invest big money in snakes every day and the sad fact is these are living animals and $#^* happens. it is a risk we all take when investing in animals.

second if there is a tos and you did not fallow the outline then the loss of the animal is on you the buyer. ( we all agree that it is way to bad that you dont have any proof of your conversations you had)

third i do find it verry hard to believe that someone would pay shipping of an animal back to someone with out a promis of a refund or something.

to john if you are telling the 100% truth i relly feal for you and this whole thing sux big time. and you learned a 6500 lesson. that is to get everything in writing.

to mark if you are being attacked here and are telling the 100% truth then i guess this is one of those times that being a nice guy and trying to help someones sick animal did not pay off.

any whoo if we cant see the e-mails these two exchanged then we as the public will never fully know the 100% truth. and that relly sux as someones rep is being called out here.

 

[johnmartino]

Erin, that is too much of a hypothetical question for me to answer. I obviously had enough concern that when Mark called me I felt the need to tell him the problem. You seem to be missing the point on a few levels. One, he was sold to me as a breeding male. Breeding males do not eat during the breeding season. So i had reason to believe he was in that mode and that was why he was not feeding. Not so cut an dry as a 14 day TOS. Second Mark was fully aware of how long i had it when he agreed to take him back. Whether it was 2 1/2 months or 2 1/2 years he agreed to take him back and compensate me. So to me you are asking irrelevat questionas as Mark knew all the time frames you seem to keep asking and still took him back under the guise of compensation.

Also, i have almost 20 years keeping reptiles with almost 17 in breeding. i do not need Mark to take an animal back and get it healthy for me. Not only do i have confidence in myself, but i have plenty of other knowledgable breeders, many which are bigger than myself, locally and others which i can reach out to when needed.

Look at it this way. If i go to a store and purchase a product which has a 30 day return policy and bring it back after 90 days i am outside of their policy. However if i bring it back after 90 days and they accept my return i would expect just compensation. Would anyone disagree with that? Same premise here. Was it after 14 days, yes. Never claimed any different. Does Mark admit to accepting the animal back after 14 days, yes he does. So yes, i expect just compensation.

Matt, i agree with you 100%. Live animals die. I would just like for my animals to die in my possesion. If i send them back and they are accepted back, with the promise of compensation i dont feel they are mine anymore. Yes, I understand i was outside the TOS which would fall on the buyer, however, again, i feel he extended the TOS when he agreed to take the animal back. Yes, who in their right mind would pay to send back a $6500 animal if the werent told they were getting a refund or other compensation was coming, in this case compensation. And lastly i am telling the 100% truth and Mark knows it. So yes, big lesson learned. EVERYHTING must be in writing from now on.

 

[BryonsBoas]

Am I the only one that sees this...

A newly acquired boa regurgitates it's second meal, and instead of keeping it in quarantine, it gets introduced to an established collection?

Was this animal ever even in quarantine?

Your not the only one. It doesn't sound like a quarantine was used for long. I'd be worried about my collection considering the animal died fairly quickly.

Was a necropsy done?

John , have you had any animals tested in your possession that was with the blood?

It could've been something as simple as a bacterial infection left untreated but could've been something much worse.

 

[monkeywrench133]

Erin, that is too much of a hypothetical question for me to answer. I obviously had enough concern that when Mark called me I felt the need to tell him the problem. You seem to be missing the point on a few levels.

OK John, we'll set the hypotheticals aside.

In my opinion, you showed NO concern for that animal's well being. Period. It is dead because of your irresponsible husbandry. You had an animal that regurged and stopped eating. You then introduced that animal to the rest of your collection. At no point did you think to take the animal to a vet. And you didn't have enough concern to pick up the phone and call Mark to tell him there was a problem. You did not take ANY proactive steps regarding the welfare of this snake, or protecting your investment.

Now the snake is dead. And no one knows why because you didn't bother to take it to a vet.

Now it looks to me like you are trying to use the BOI to extort compensation for the animal out of Mark.

You said yourself that he agreed to credit you $6500 towards a trade involving a Bloody Salmon Female. I don't know about you, but I'd sure call that compensation! Do you have the animals that you intend to pay the balance off with? Have they been produced yet?

Quote by BryonsBoas: "It could've been something as simple as a bacterial infection left untreated but could've been something much worse."

Exactly, but that would have required a vet visit to diagnose, so again we're SOL.

 

[boaholic]

well the animal heatlh dept. found no wrong doings here they had no case it was a false report by a a person who felt i was compation it back fired on them and there the ones that got busted on multiple charges . as far as the pictures go i never seen them i never posted them and that person explained why there were so many snakes in one cage and the cage in question was alot bigger then a 100 gallon fish tank like most of the people claimed it was and mites? where do you get that from? i havent had a mite outbreak in years ..i have a small group of people that have actully been here and seen my place with there own eyes and anyone of them people will tell anyone that my animals are healthier then me eat better then me and are housed better then me always fresh water and clean cages proper heating and lighting these people will also tell you they have never seen my entire collection and no one fully knows what i have or breed even j.cruze has retrackted his rude words he said to me at a reptile show after all that happened when i explined it to him and he talked to other herpers that have been here and seen first hand if it was true people he trust as well as i trust they all told him it was a bogus and taken out of context forum post he woodnt be doing bizzness with me or anyother herper from the shows doing bizzness with me. him and the others woodnt be calling me for the babies i produce yearly witch does not require a permit i have local referances that will say the same that have been here i have had animal control here numerous times and they even complimented me on my husbantry methods, knowlage of them , and hand made custom cages unlike most breeders who use small confining racks with sweeter boxes lined with news print and a tiny water dishes

 

[steveingram]

I purchased several animals from Mark at the last St. Louis show. (4 female ball pythons and 2 boas) They are all doing great. Mark was a pleasure to deal with.

I'm not taking sides on this subject. I just wanted to share the experience I had with mark. I think very highly of both Mark and John.

Thanks for your time.
-Steve Ingram

 

[johnmartino]

Did Mark take it to a vet? Nope!! He had him for two months before he died. Why didnt he take him to a vet if he was so concerned for the animals well being. I at least had a fecal done which came up neagative. Snake died in Marks possesion. Ask him if necropsy was done. I am not trying to extort anything i am trying to hold a man to his word. I did agree to $6500 credit. i would have been thrilled to a $6500 credit. I would have been thrilled to a $5000 credit. Yet i received NO CREDIT. You can check my site at www.johnmichaelreptiles.com ALL animals were produced that i said to Mark would be produced. Many are sold already. He had first crack at an y of them. He just refused to contact me ever again.They were produced months ago.

 

[johnmartino]

Erin, let me ask you a question. Why did Mark take the snake back? And please dont tell me to get him healthy for me as you can read my previous posts.

 

[hunterreptiles]

I have been reading these threads and I agree with John 100%. Mark Miller took the snake back which without any doubt voids the TOS. He also did not take the snake to a vet to try to find out what the problem was, and furthermore John Martino does NOT need Mark to play vet for him , He is very knowledgeable about the proper care and necessary treatment of his animals. Also John would not have paid the shipping to send the animal back unless mark Miller verbally agreed to take back the snake and give him a credit. I actually spoke to Mark Miller about one of his Hypos to possibly buy and during my conversation with him I mentioned that I purchased a lipstick line sunglow from johns last litter mark then proceeded to tell me that he owes John a credit and he would be trading him something that John was intrested in plus John was going to add in a lipstick line sunglow as well, So you see I know first hand that John is telling the truth and Mark Miller is avoiding the truth. Also in my opinion Mark Miller let that snake die without taking it to a vet and if he still thought at that point that it was Johns snake which he did not! whats up with him not even telling John that the snake died until 2 months later which proves also that at that point he considered it to be his (Marks )snake. When you accept a return you receive a credit for it, which John never still to this moment has seen, Plus avoiding his calls and emails that is unprofessional. We are all in this business to produce beautiful animals and withhold integrity and Mark where did your integrity go!!!! Why don't you just Contact John make your trade and have this all be done with. This he said nonsense hurting your reputation and it is not worth it. I'm sure you can work out a trade where everyone involved is happy. Its time to redeem yourself and your reputation. MAKE IT RIGHT
Fred& Debbie
Hunterreptiles

 

[Laura Fopiano]

Okay, I had read through this thread and the most disturbing part of it is that the blood male was put into breeding with out quarantine! I don't care who is the best or well known breeders/keepers. Quarantine for a minimum of 90 days would have insured both the buyer and the seller in this night mare, that all was well and safe.

I am not defending either party here, I have not done business with either party, but, I had an incident last year with a very well known breeder on a mis-sexed animal and he allowed me to return it to him and trade for the propper sex.

Mark, if you made a promise to make it right, than you should, no if ands or buts.
John, once the animal regurged it should have never been put into another cage, let alone attempting to breed it. Stress from shipping and a new environment could have caused him to regurge as well, then ad the stress of being in a cage with a new snake and it could lead to the disaster that I am now reading.

It could have died for many different reasons and should have been necropsied, period. While I will agree that snakes dies all the time, I have a little too much experience in loosing animals.....I always have necropsy's done, they may contain bad news, but they can also be your friend.

Knowledge is power gentlemen, take your egos out of this equation and work together to find the solution to the animal's death.

 

[Griz]

Mark, your story does not add up. You are stretching things if you think most here will believe that you took this animal back out of the goodness of your heart. John's reputation goes quite a ways and he would not need you to play vet for him. It does not add up Mark. Your reputation will very quickly go down the toilet if you don't take care of this. Too many inconsistencies in your story.

Griz

 

[KingPin]

I have been reading these threads and I agree with John 100%. Mark Miller took the snake back which without any doubt voids the TOS. He also did not take the snake to a vet to try to find out what the problem was, and furthermore John Martino does NOT need Mark to play vet for him , He is very knowledgeable about the proper care and necessary treatment of his animals. Also John would not have paid the shipping to send the animal back unless mark Miller verbally agreed to take back the snake and give him a credit. I actually spoke to Mark Miller about one of his Hypos to possibly buy and during my conversation with him I mentioned that I purchased a lipstick line sunglow from johns last litter mark then proceeded to tell me that he owes John a credit and he would be trading him something that John was intrested in plus John was going to add in a lipstick line sunglow as well, So you see I know first hand that John is telling the truth and Mark Miller is avoiding the truth. Also in my opinion Mark Miller let that snake die without taking it to a vet and if he still thought at that point that it was Johns snake which he did not! whats up with him not even telling John that the snake died until 2 months later which proves also that at that point he considered it to be his (Marks )snake. When you accept a return you receive a credit for it, which John never still to this moment has seen, Plus avoiding his calls and emails that is unprofessional. We are all in this business to produce beautiful animals and withhold integrity and Mark where did your integrity go!!!! Why don't you just Contact John make your trade and have this all be done with. This he said nonsense hurting your reputation and it is not worth it. I'm sure you can work out a trade where everyone involved is happy. Its time to redeem yourself and your reputation. MAKE IT RIGHT
Fred& Debbie
Hunterreptiles

I NEVER SAID I OWED HIM ANYTHING, All i said was we were tying to work out a deal on some of his sunglows. Period. This crap about a refund is just ludicrous, why would i ever offer a refund? it was not my snake and not my decision to breed a snake after a regurge and i told John that. Its pretty easy for one of you to get on here and say i made some statement to make Johns side look better, but the facts are you are just trying to help john. you have no record of me saying that and John has no record of me saying that, I certainly have the email i sent John stating he would not get any refund. What proof do you have that i said i would give a refund? oh yeah thats right, you don't have any proof of that because it never happened.

I didn't stop answering johns calls until he started threatening me with legal action, which is more than welcome if he wants to continue to slander me and make up lies about the situation which you are obviously only here to try and help skew peoples opinions, I never said i was giving him a refund to you or him so please keep it honest here and if you have some proof you can offer other wise please do so, I know if i were going to offer someone a refund i would have sent him something via email, not over the phone.

And I would never offer anyone a refund on an animal that had been out of my hands for over 4 months, all i offered was help getting it feeding, I told him at the time that was all i was doing and now he is using my good hearted kindness against me to try and extort me and slander my name by saying i accepted the animal back.

John certainly would pay shipping on an animal that he thought was dieing and had exhausted his knowledge of what to do and wanted to save the life of an expensive animal. It was his last shot at saving the snakes life, he knew it was gonna die. I know i am not the only person he contacted to try and get ideas on how to get the snake to eat.

The bottom line here is John Bred that snake after a regurge and accepted all responsibility for his actions by doing so, he already has stated he has a vast knowledge of boas and didn't need my help yet he repeatedly went against every rule of a new animal, he didn't quarantine, he didn't call to notify me of any problems and He didn't take the snake out of the breeding program for several months which makes me believe the animal most likely was breeding fine and once the breeding was over he couldn't get it back on food. I never said i would give him a refund or any exchange, I simply offered a discount on any future animals to a repeat customer that had gone through a tuff loss, however his loss is not my responsibility.


Since John has decided to call my customers and family(actually called my parents house and one of my customers) and try dragging them into this I will no longer be responding to this thread and will follow the advice of my attorney and wait for legal action to be made.

Mark Miller