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Mice vs. Rats

JenHarrison said:
It is when you have a snake or two that tends to not grab the prey correctly and opens itself up to getting bitten, but refuses to eat dead food of any kind.
Click to expand...

Jen,

I've had snakes grab the prey from all sorts of angles, one even grabbed the tail and had to coil about 6 times before it got to the body - but even then they were never injured. They've grabbed sides, rear ends, heads etc - but they are efficient killers if you just let them do what comes naturally and not intervene. I don't think there's an incorrect way to grab the prey.
 
rabernet said:
Jen,

I've had snakes grab the prey from all sorts of angles, one even grabbed the tail and had to coil about 6 times before it got to the body - but even then they were never injured. They've grabbed sides, rear ends, heads etc - but they are efficient killers if you just let them do what comes naturally and not intervene. I don't think there's an incorrect way to grab the prey.
Click to expand...

Most of the time they do just fine. But then there are instances like last night...one of my big adult males grabbed his live rat funny -- by the balls. I'm not kidding, he had it by its testicles and part of the back leg. The rat freaked out and started biting Diego's side, so I reached in with tongs and held the rat's head away so he couldn't keep trying to sink his teeth in. After about 30 seconds I noticed the rat's nose and mouth weren't turning purple and he was still breathing -- Diego was constricting the rat's back end, not the chest cavity, so the rat wasn't dying. I thought about breaking the rat's neck to end it quickly, but because Diego was partially inside his hide box, I couldn't get an angle to jerk the rat's head up or twist it. I tried tugging to see if Diego would let go, thinking I'd re-offer the rat and he could get a proper grip, but he held fast. Finally I had to use the tongs to squeeze the rat's neck and suffocate it myself.

He tends to do that kind of weird thing often, and so does Java. I think they get so excited about eating that they don't concentrate first before striking. My others all analyze the situation before going for it, these guys just grab when it hits the floor. Neither of them will take dead food, not even fresh prekilled. So stunned is the best option I have so they don't get hurt.
 
JenHarrison said:
Most of the time they do just fine. But then there are instances like last night...one of my big adult males grabbed his live rat funny -- by the balls. I'm not kidding, he had it by its testicles and part of the back leg. The rat freaked out and started biting Diego's side, so I reached in with tongs and held the rat's head away so he couldn't keep trying to sink his teeth in. After about 30 seconds I noticed the rat's nose and mouth weren't turning purple and he was still breathing -- Diego was constricting the rat's back end, not the chest cavity, so the rat wasn't dying. I thought about breaking the rat's neck to end it quickly, but because Diego was partially inside his hide box, I couldn't get an angle to jerk the rat's head up or twist it. I tried tugging to see if Diego would let go, thinking I'd re-offer the rat and he could get a proper grip, but he held fast. Finally I had to use the tongs to squeeze the rat's neck and suffocate it myself.

He tends to do that kind of weird thing often, and so does Java. I think they get so excited about eating that they don't concentrate first before striking. My others all analyze the situation before going for it, these guys just grab when it hits the floor. Neither of them will take dead food, not even fresh prekilled. So stunned is the best option I have so they don't get hurt.
Click to expand...
Excellent examples of why live feeding is dangerous. Fresh killed will give your snake a still twitching still warm prey item and it's easier on whatever rodent is being fed off.
 
I've got to side with Jen on this. I've heard/read some real horror stories about live prey taking chunks out of snakes, and have seen some nasty looking injuries in pics. A couple weeks ago, I placed a live medium rat in with my 2kg female. She immediately struck and constricted, but didn't get a good hold on the head. The rat immediately started biting. Since I was right there, I was able to intervene by grabbing the rat's head in my forceps. Since then, I will NOT feed anything larger than a fuzzy rat without stunning first! With a good sharp blow to the head, I seriously doubt the rat knows its in pain, and in fact may be dead even though still moving.

When I was a kid, my dad and I decided it would be a good idea to breed rabbits. We soon discovered that rabbits are quite prolific, and quite difficult to sell. Having eaten wild game many times, we decided to butcher the unsaleable rabbits. They were dispatched by removing their heads with a hatchet. Once that was done, we got out of the way. If you're not experienced with rabbits, you might not know that they have claws on the order of a cat's claws, and can lay you open quite nicely. The rabbits would flail wildly for a few minutes after their heads were removed. Do you think they were feeling pain?

"Stunning" a rat or mouse very likely REDUCES the pain and suffering of the slow death from being bitten, and then suffocated by a snake. All that being said, I won't walk away until the rat is either dead (and no longer moving) or in the jaws of my snake.

"As opposed to getting impaled by needle teeth and strangled to death by a snake? If I were a rodent, I'd prefer a quick hard impact to that."

Interesting (to me) side note: After reading this thread less than an hour before this was posted, I seriously considered posting almost the EXACT same words! I generally stay out of these types of threads though, so I went to bed. This morning, when I saw the continuation of the discussion, I decided to post.

Sorry if I've ruffled any feathers, or grossed anyone out with my rabbit story. If nothing else, I hope that you, Jen, at least feel a little support here.

Steve
 
I already said that those 2 won't take dead food (prekilled or f/t). They sniffed it and turned away every time I tried, no matter if I'm wiggling it or not. It wasn't cold, it had just been killed 1-2 minutes prior. Then when they didn't take it, I had just wasted a $4 rat that had to get tossed out. When I tried f/t, it was pretty warm -- I had used hot water for 15 minutes then a heat lamp. Still no interest, and then I was left with a nasty, smelly, bloody, dead rat. :ack2:

I've never seen a prekilled rodent still twitch. Stunned ones twitch, but not prekilled...they're pretty dead. ???

My efficient killers take live no problem. These two take stunned no problem. I don't see why I shouldn't keep going with what works.

*edit* Thank you Steve, I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees it that way.
 
hoo-t said:
I've got to side with Jen on this. I've heard/read some real horror stories about live prey taking chunks out of snakes, and have seen some nasty looking injuries in pics. A couple weeks ago, I placed a live medium rat in with my 2kg female. She immediately struck and constricted, but didn't get a good hold on the head. The rat immediately started biting. Since I was right there, I was able to intervene by grabbing the rat's head in my forceps. Since then, I will NOT feed anything larger than a fuzzy rat without stunning first! With a good sharp blow to the head, I seriously doubt the rat knows its in pain, and in fact may be dead even though still moving.

When I was a kid, my dad and I decided it would be a good idea to breed rabbits. We soon discovered that rabbits are quite prolific, and quite difficult to sell. Having eaten wild game many times, we decided to butcher the unsaleable rabbits. They were dispatched by removing their heads with a hatchet. Once that was done, we got out of the way. If you're not experienced with rabbits, you might not know that they have claws on the order of a cat's claws, and can lay you open quite nicely. The rabbits would flail wildly for a few minutes after their heads were removed. Do you think they were feeling pain?

"Stunning" a rat or mouse very likely REDUCES the pain and suffering of the slow death from being bitten, and then suffocated by a snake. All that being said, I won't walk away until the rat is either dead (and no longer moving) or in the jaws of my snake.

"As opposed to getting impaled by needle teeth and strangled to death by a snake? If I were a rodent, I'd prefer a quick hard impact to that."

Interesting (to me) side note: After reading this thread less than an hour before this was posted, I seriously considered posting almost the EXACT same words! I generally stay out of these types of threads though, so I went to bed. This morning, when I saw the continuation of the discussion, I decided to post.

Sorry if I've ruffled any feathers, or grossed anyone out with my rabbit story. If nothing else, I hope that you, Jen, at least feel a little support here.

Steve
Click to expand...
I'm curious. Have you ever recieved a sharp blow to the head? I ask not because of your post, though there may well be ample evidence there to provide an answer I prefer to hear from you directly, but because it would seem to me, that during the minute or so it took to die while being suffocated, provided a good wrap is made on the first try, it is entirely likely that consciousness would be achieved and with that consciousness the ability to feel pain.

It's sort of a halfway step to stun and not kill. Why bruise a rats brain when a cervicle-spinal seperation is so easy?

Of course if you are not willing to feed anything but live, this is all moot.
 
JenHarrison said:
I already said that those 2 won't take dead food (prekilled or f/t). They sniffed it and turned away every time I tried, no matter if I'm wiggling it or not. It wasn't cold, it had just been killed 1-2 minutes prior. Then when they didn't take it, I had just wasted a $4 rat that had to get tossed out. When I tried f/t, it was pretty warm -- I had used hot water for 15 minutes then a heat lamp. Still no interest, and then I was left with a nasty, smelly, bloody, dead rat. :ack2:

I've never seen a prekilled rodent still twitch. Stunned ones twitch, but not prekilled...they're pretty dead. ???

My efficient killers take live no problem. These two take stunned no problem. I don't see why I shouldn't keep going with what works.

*edit* Thank you Steve, I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees it that way.
Click to expand...

Look up a couple of posts, maybe 3 or so by the time this is posted.

Do you see where I wrote FRESH killed? Comprende FRESH?
 
Wilomn said:
I'm curious. Have you ever recieved a sharp blow to the head? I ask not because of your post, though there may well be ample evidence there to provide an answer I prefer to hear from you directly, but because it would seem to me, that during the minute or so it took to die while being suffocated, provided a good wrap is made on the first try, it is entirely likely that consciousness would be achieved and with that consciousness the ability to feel pain.

It's sort of a halfway step to stun and not kill. Why bruise a rats brain when a cervicle-spinal seperation is so easy?

Of course if you are not willing to feed anything but live, this is all moot.
Click to expand...

Wes,

What exactly are you advocating? I believe in the humane prekilling of prey items. I took Jen to task on her ridiculous statement:

"I don't hit as hard so it basically gives them a big headache and they stop squiggling and don't know what's going on."


The only two recognized, humane methods of prekilling are CO2 and cervical dislocation. Thumping is not. So, I agree that extreme care should be taken with live feeding but short of that, humane prekilling should be practiced.

Welcome back by the way!

J
 
Wilomn, do you have cranial abnormalities in your reading comprehension abilities? I SAID IT WAS KILLED 1-2 MINUTES PRIOR, PROBABLY EVEN LESS. As in "Whack" "Open the tub" "dangle"...that quick. How is that not fresh?

Glass, yes, humane killing methods should be used...if a snake will take dead prey. As I've said numerous times, mine will not. The only other alternative in your views then would be live...but as I've already given example of, live isn't exactly safe when these 2 don't particularly pay attention to what they're doing and tend to grab wrong, exposing themselves to being bitten badly. To me, stunned is the only option for their safety and health.
 
I'm advocating whacking your rat in such manner as to cause that much sought after cervicle spinal seperation.

Feeding live is necessary on some animals. But to stun, to maim without killing to such a fine degree that the prey item is out for only long enough to be constricted but not long enough to fight back, THAT is a degree of sublety(?) that I just don't see most posessing.

Thumping is painful and can leave your prey item sufficiently aware to injure your snake if a good grab is not made..

Thanks for the welcome too.
 
In all the times I've thumped/stunned prey, none of them have ever tried to fight back, even when grabbed funny/backwards.
 
Wilomn said:
I'm curious. Have you ever recieved a sharp blow to the head? I ask not because of your post, though there may well be ample evidence there to provide an answer I prefer to hear from you directly, but because it would seem to me, that during the minute or so it took to die while being suffocated, provided a good wrap is made on the first try, it is entirely likely that consciousness would be achieved and with that consciousness the ability to feel pain.

It's sort of a halfway step to stun and not kill. Why bruise a rats brain when a cervicle-spinal seperation is so easy?

Of course if you are not willing to feed anything but live, this is all moot.
Click to expand...

Wes,
Its not a matter of being willing to feed pre-killed. In fact, I prefer frozen/thawed. But, like Jen, I have several snakes that turn their noses up at dead prey items.

If a good rap is made on the first try, the rat is not going to regain consciousness, its dead, much like the cervical-spinal separation you mentioned. I haven't mastered a good technique for cervical-spinal separation, and therefore, any time I've tried it, it HAS lead to unnecessary suffering for the rat. Obviously, CO2 euthanasia doesn't leave the prey item moving, so it won't work for a snake that refuses dead prey. If you would care to share your method for cervical-spinal separation on rats, I'm willing to listen.

I sent Jen a private message describing my method for stunning/killing rats, and wasn't going to post it simply because of the flaming that she had received. However, in light of this post, I'll share. Holding the rat in my forceps, I take a medium to large screwdriver by the blade end, and strike the rat in the back of the skull, using the screwdriver as a club. This allows for much better control on the force used, and accuracy on where the force is applied.

I have a couple of snakes that have refused all efforts to feed, until I offered fresh killed "brained" prey items. In these cases, I have discovered that my method of striking the rats with the screwdriver literally crushes the skull. The rat is not likely to recover from that.

Steve
 
hoo-t said:
Wes,
Its not a matter of being willing to feed pre-killed. In fact, I prefer frozen/thawed. But, like Jen, I have several snakes that turn their noses up at dead prey items.

If a good rap is made on the first try, the rat is not going to regain consciousness, its dead, much like the cervical-spinal separation you mentioned. I haven't mastered a good technique for cervical-spinal separation, and therefore, any time I've tried it, it HAS lead to unnecessary suffering for the rat. Obviously, CO2 euthanasia doesn't leave the prey item moving, so it won't work for a snake that refuses dead prey. If you would care to share your method for cervical-spinal separation on rats, I'm willing to listen.

I sent Jen a private message describing my method for stunning/killing rats, and wasn't going to post it simply because of the flaming that she had received. However, in light of this post, I'll share. Holding the rat in my forceps, I take a medium to large screwdriver by the blade end, and strike the rat in the back of the skull, using the screwdriver as a club. This allows for much better control on the force used, and accuracy on where the force is applied.

I have a couple of snakes that have refused all efforts to feed, until I offered fresh killed "brained" prey items. In these cases, I have discovered that my method of striking the rats with the screwdriver literally crushes the skull. The rat is not likely to recover from that.

Steve
Click to expand...

And the idiocy continues...
 
jglass38 said:
And the idiocy continues...
Click to expand...

Well, Jamie, if presenting my point in a non-confrontational way, abstaining from name calling (ie. flaming) is idiocy, then so be it. I'm the idiot.

Steve
 
hoo-t said:
Well, Jamie, if presenting my point in a non-confrontational way, abstaining from name calling (ie. flaming) is idiocy, then so be it. I'm the idiot.

Steve
Click to expand...

The idiocy is in the fact that you believe that what you are doing is humane.
 
Jamie, if you seem to think we're doing something wrong, then enlighten us. If you had a snake (or more) that absolutely refuses dead prey but has problems taking live without injury, what would you do?
 
Wow, just saw Wes' post in the other thread. It seems to me that he and Jamie are in this more for the opportunity to insult and call names than to offer constructive advice. I'm not much of a fan of that, so I think maybe I'm just gonna slip away quietly.

Steve
 
You know, the whole your small vs. my small is dumb and I'm more the fool for not taking into acccount that what I see available as small out here is not of necessity what you see available where you are, so I must concede the point to you.

The rest, through a series of misunderstandings and ignorance, has twisted itself into something not so nice.

SO, if you'd like to start over, Jen, I'll lighten up.
 
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