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Mice vs. Rats

Exactly, the smallest thing I can get is a small rat. And that's what I've been feeding them. Both Java and Diego were fed medium rats by the people I got them from, but because mediums here are pretty big, I buy smalls and that's what they are fed. A small rat is what got nailed wrong the other night and latched onto Diego.

What would be best is if I could get weanling rats that are still docile and timid...they wouldn't have problems with them if they grabbed them wrong. But there are none out here anywhere.

2 of my mice are heavily pregnant so I'm hoping at least one of my rats is too. Once they all get going, I'll have access to smaller rats for them and there won't be a need to stun.
 
Attacking live feeders solves nothing. There are breeders considerably larger than those that are posting here that DO feed live, although, I doubt any of them use the stun method.

Jen, have you tried Co2 chambering the rodents prior to feed? If so, I'd try that first, however, here's my suggestion on humanely stunning the mice enough to feed:

http://www.alysion.org/euthanasia/

At the bottom they have a euthanasia machine... however, we'll call it the stun machine for now :). I used use an identical chamber, but this one works REALLY well for stunning, if you only use the first cup. After the anesthetic effects you can either feed them to your snake, or if you have a concern with biting, you can then stun them with force (although, using the proper amount of Co2 will make this extremely unlikely).

I've since moved to using a Co2 canister, as that is more controllable and tends to work a little faster. If you haven't tried it's worth a shot at building this thing (it's cheap) and if you haven't tried p/k with Co2 on your finiky eaters, it will give you a chance to do just that.
 
Justin, I appreciate your trying to help, but did you see this post from Jen?



JenHarrison said:
Am I seriously not speaking English? I'm really starting to wonder.

I am not trying to kill prey in any way, shape, or form. I already am well aware of how to build a CO2 chamber and how to break the neck at the base of the skull. Both of those are useless to me, as they will not eat any form of dead prey, whether it was killed 20 seconds prior or 1 month prior. The question I am repeatedly posing (and thus behind this entire discussion on stunned), how would you feed a snake that refuses dead prey but tends to be bad at taking live prey? I feed live to all of my snakes, and only 2 of them have this issue of not grabbing the head. Last night Diego had a complete set of rat teeth lodged in his side until I grabbed the head and held it away. I stun the rats to prevent them from doing that if those 2 particular snakes grab them wrong and so far, it has been working. Why is this such a big deal?
Click to expand...
 
Actually, I believe that that Justin was advocating the use of CO2 for anesthesia, not euthanasia. Technically, he's correct - CO2 chambers in the way that most of us use them do not actually kill the animal, since death occurs considerably later than unconciousness. Here's a quote from a study looking at the effects of CO2

"...time to unconsciousness was 30 s in PF subjects and 99 s in GI subjects; time to death was 5.4 min in PF subjects and 9 min in GI subjects" - Smith and Harrap, 1997. (PF stands for pre-filled chamber and GI stands for gradual induction of CO2).

I know I certainly don't leave my mice in a CO2 chamber of that long. This is why it's important to perform a cervical dislocation/decaptiation after removing the animal from the chamber if you really want to ensure that it's dead. If you just wait until the rodent is "asleep" and then chuck it into your snake enclosure it's technically just unconcious, not dead.
 
the_deeb said:
Actually, I believe that that Justin was advocating the use of CO2 for anesthesia, not euthanasia. Technically, he's correct - CO2 chambers in the way that most of us use them do not actually kill the animal, since death occurs considerably later than unconciousness. Here's a quote from a study looking at the effects of CO2

"...time to unconsciousness was 30 s in PF subjects and 99 s in GI subjects; time to death was 5.4 min in PF subjects and 9 min in GI subjects" - Smith and Harrap, 1997. (PF stands for pre-filled chamber and GI stands for gradual induction of CO2).

I know I certainly don't leave my mice in a CO2 chamber of that long. This is why it's important to perform a cervical dislocation/decaptiation after removing the animal from the chamber if you really want to ensure that it's dead. If you just wait until the rodent is "asleep" and then chuck it into your snake enclosure it's technically just unconcious, not dead.
Click to expand...

Exactly, the only reason I suggested using the CO2 chamber in attempting euthanizing is for those afraid that just knocking the rodent out may result in it "waking up" and attacking the snake. I've never actually witnessed it, and the only plausible reason it COULD happen would be failing to give enough time for the CO2 to take effect, or not using a high enough ratio to knock them completely out.
 
I understand what you were saying Justin, and you had some very valuable information. :)

However, what Jen was trying to accomplish was safer methods of feeding live WITHOUT having to stun (and/or kill) at all.
 
Cat_72 said:
I understand what you were saying Justin, and you had some very valuable information. :)

However, what Jen was trying to accomplish was safer methods of feeding live WITHOUT having to stun (and/or kill) at all.
Click to expand...

Well hopefully she considers the information valuable as well :).

Whether or not Jen decides to use the info I posted is up to her. I have no problems with any method of feeding, as long as it's humane for the rodent and safe for the reptile.

The fact is, building a Co2 chamber is cheap, reliable and effcient. But it does take more time than just beating a mouse against the wall or floor. However, IMHO anyone that won't take the extra couple of minutes (if that) to allow the rodent a painless death, probably should rethink the reptile breeding industry, and certainly the ball python breeding industry. The impatient rarely prosper with this job :hehe:.
 
I really appreciate the info Justin, I'll look into building a chamber this week. I thought CO2 chambers caused a quick death, I didn't know the rodents were unconscious for such a long period of time prior to death. That helps me greatly and I'd much prefer to use that method to make them safer for my two "special" snakes. Thank you!
 
JenHarrison said:
I really appreciate the info Justin, I'll look into building a chamber this week. I thought CO2 chambers caused a quick death, I didn't know the rodents were unconscious for such a long period of time prior to death. That helps me greatly and I'd much prefer to use that method to make them safer for my two "special" snakes. Thank you!
Click to expand...

Glad I could help Jen. If your snakes don't immediately, and your willing to waste a mouse or two, keep offering Co2 mice before going back too the old method. What you really need is a prolific eater to send the unwanted mice too :D.
 
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