Michael Cole, Ballroom Pythons South (BAD GUY)

[crestedsupreme]

I purchased a pair of Uroplatus phantasticus from Michael a few months ago for $300. Both animals were supposedly "fancy" which is how he justified the price. The animals arrived freezing cold and skin and bones. The male died about a week later. When I asked for a replacement, Michael told me I had waited too long and that he would replace the male if I paid what he pays to import the geckos plus shipping ($68). I agreed against my better judgement since I was now stuck with a single female and was sent another male. The second male was extremely underweight and died after about 3 weeks. I had not paid Michael for the second male up to this point and approached him about its death. He said it was entirely my fault that both males died, siting my use of "city water" as the culprit. According to him "the chlorine killed them." Why then has my female survived the entire time up to the present on the same water?

To sum up:
1) Michael Cole sells subpar animals
2) If you are going to buy from him, don't fall for his increased prices for "fancy" animals that are exactly the same as the regular ones.
3) If you buy from him and your animals die, he won't replace the animal for free or refund your money
4) He's quick to make excuses that are completely ridiculous and unfounded to place the blame on you

 

[hhmoore]

I hate getting burned as much as the nice guy

so this should in no means be take as defense of Michael. just trying to sort out the way things happened. QUOTE]I purchased a pair of Uroplatus phantasticus from Michael a few months ago for $300. Both animals were supposedly "fancy" which is how he justified the price.[/QUOTE]
Did you see, or ask for pictures of these geckos prior to purchase? If not, you really have no one to blame but yourself that you were not happy with their appearance. Beauty is certainly in the eye of the beholder, and maybe when seen with a bunch of others, they did appear better than average.

The animals arrived freezing cold and skin and bones. The male died about a week later. When I asked for a replacement, Michael told me I had waited too long and that he would replace the male if I paid what he pays to import the geckos plus shipping ($68).

You were unhappy with their condition on arrival - did you call Michael immediately to voice your concerns? Most dealers offer a 24-48 hr window after receipt to request refund/exchange if there is a problem with the animal. What are Michael's TOS, as stated, and did you comply with them? If not, many could/would argue that Michael was being generous in offering you a replacement for cost (who was to pay for shipping on the replacement?)

The second male was extremely underweight and died after about 3 weeks. I had not paid Michael for the second male up to this point and approached him about its death.

So he shipped you a replacement "at cost" without receiving money. Not bad - It gives you a chance to inspect the animal prior to paying. it sounds as if you were also unhappy with its condition from the start, so back to the first question: did you contact michael immediately, or wait til the animal deteriorated or died.
Now, just a few other questions (fact finding, if you will). have you had any experience with this type of gecko? describe the enclosure: including temps, humidity, cage furniture, etc; were they eating? drinking? Any copies of email correspondence regarding the animals in question? Have you notified Michael of this thread so we can hear his side of things?

 

[mattjillson]

I have to agree with Harald in that if you weren't happy with the purchase from the get go why not mention it to Mike right away and wait to do so for weeks? Regardless of husbandry issues, which make a big difference in the suvival rate of WC animals, remember that these are WC animals and for the most part they will most likely die unless you are absolutly on top of them. You should be going into any WC deal knowing that most likely the animals probably won't make it unfortunatly.

Did you take fecal samples to the vet to check for parasites? I think the main issue which absolves Mike from being a bad guy is your procrastination. You should have let him know as soon as you opened the box and weren't happy with the animals. It sounds like he was very accomidating in sending you a replacement that I assume you haven't paid for. This isn't to say you are a bad guy but let's face it, you waited too long to voice your opinion so is that really Mike's fault?

Matt Jillson

 

[Jim O]

I sent a Private Message to Michael informing him of this thread's existence.

Michael,

I thought that you should know that someone has started a "Bad Guy" thread on the BOI about you at http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/for...ead.php?t=69282.

Jim

For the record, all of Michaels ads on Kingsnake include the following text:

24 hour 100% satisfaction guarantee.
Thanks
Michael Cole
Ballroom Pythons South
863-439-3015
8AM till 8PM EST on phone calls please

Adam,

If you were convinced that these were not "fancy" then you could have returned them during that window and the discussion here would be moot. But you chose to keep them and that does put some of the onus on you here. Also, Michael did ship off the replacement without being paid but has not come here to post a "Bad Guy" on you. That is not to say that he couldn't or that he won't, but it is worth mentioning.

As a side note, I saw some U. Phantasticus that Michael was selling at the Tampa show and they looked pretty good to me though I can't say that I thoroughly inspected them all.

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

I totally agree here. Something is not right. You (if you did not) should have contacted him within the 24 hours time frame he has on his terms and all his ads about anything regarding the animals. If you waited

I have known Mike for quite a few years now and know he sells great animals and takes care of his customers.

It does seem that you waited a little too long on the entire situation including posting here your feelings. It seems that you waited a week to say anything which is well past his guarantee period. If this is the case he went above and beyond with offering you a replacement at cost which he did not have to do.

Also $300 for a pair of U.Phantasticus is not too much higher than normal presently. Heck there are ads right now with pairs selling at $228, and Mike has a trio for $375 which would make a pair $250 so $300 for a pair that is a little better looking is not an outrageous price.

I am sure Mike will be here to post his side to this thread and more of this.

 

[crestedsupreme]

Should I even bother to defend myself here? I didn't realize I was pleading my case to the "I Love Mike Club".

I'm only a small time hobbyist but when I do sell online I provide far better service to my customers than Mike did to me. I guess I was expecting too much.

And how come no one found it strange or even mentioned his claim that chlorinated water killed my geckos?

 

[hhmoore]

Should I even bother to defend myself here? I didn't realize I was pleading my case to the "I Love Mike Club".

I had a feeling that comment would be coming. A "Bad Guy" post can be a serious issue - it's here forever. If you know enough about the BOI to come here and post, you should have expected some questioning about the details. Nobody here has passed any kind of judgement, except that perhaps you should have notified Michael more promptly [you may have called him right after you opened the box, but your initial post does not indicate that you called him before the first animal died - a week after you received it]

 

[Jim O]

Adam,

Did it ever occur to you that maybe chlorine in the water is detrimental to stressed out recent imports? Michael imports thousands of animals. If he said that I imagine that he had a reason. But really it is irrelevant. You had a chance to make this right for yourself and you chose not to do so. Then Michael sent you a replacement for free as it turns out and that one died too. When I hear a story like that I am always a bit concerned that maybe, in fact, the buyer did not properly care for the animal. I am not accusing you of doing that, just saying that the "red flag" is there.

The facts as you presented them are as follows:

• you bought a pair of geckos
• you were not happy with them from the moment they arrived
• you did not complain during your 24 hour "satisfaction guarantee" period
• one of the animals died
• the seller agreed to replace it at cost and you agreed to this
• the seller shipped the replacement to you without having been paid
• you never paid for the replacement animal as you had agreed to do
• the replacement animal also died
• you still never paid what you agreed to pay
• you posted a "Bad Guy" about the seller

It sounds as though a lot of this is so much sour grapes. As has been pointed out to you, if you were unhappy with the appearance or the condition of the animals as originally received, as you claim to have been, you could have returned them for a full refund. I know that if I received animals "freezing cold and skin and bones" I would have called the seller immediately and told him he would have them back in 24 hours, gone to a FedEx outlet and shipped them back, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. You didn't. That, Adam, was your choice and your doing.

 

[ballroompythons]

Michael Cole definitely does not deserve to be on a "bad guy" post. I have done business with him for 10 years and he has been a trustworthy businessman who was always willing to go the "extra mile" to make sure his customers were happy. When dealing with living things, especially wild caught, death of the animal is always a possibility. Michael has always stood behind his guarantee and has replaced animals or refunded money when necessary. I am not entirely sure about the chlorine issue, but do know that wild caught geckos are difficult to care for and should only be taken on by "seasoned" gecko owners. I can see how water with a strong chlorine content could have an adverse effect on the animal. However, I doubt that Michael was trying to say the death of the animal was your fault, but rather trying to troubleshoot the possibilities in an effort to prevent the same fate for future animals. He did make an effort to correct the problem on his end by sending you a new animal which I feel should have kept his name off of the "bad guy" forum. Michael is one of the rare reptile breeders who truly cares about the animals as well as the people whom he sells to. I don't think you are dealing with the "I love Mike club", although I would probably be on the board of directors of said club, I think you could better benefit from working with Micahel to resolve this situation since I have never seen him turn his head on an unsatisfied customer.
Tim Lane

 

[Neil Gubitz]

I have a question for you Adam, concerning this quote of yours....

"he would replace the male if I paid what he pays to import the geckos plus shipping ($68). I agreed against my better judgement since I was now stuck with a single female and was sent another male. The second male was extremely underweight and died after about 3 weeks. I had not paid Michael for the second male up to this point and approached him about its death. "....

So you said you agreed to pay the $68 for the replacement Gecko, yet the animal died THREE WEEKS later and you STILL hadn't paid it??.... And THEN you went to talk to Mike about it's DEATH??.... It's funny, because I don't recall seeing a thread from Mike asking where his money was, after THREE WEEKS??.... He probably wouldn't have said a thing if you hadn't posted this??....

I've known Mike for years and we've done a bunch of biz together.... I've never had one problem with his animals, they were all gorgeous and healthy.... Of course, I KNOW how to take care of the species I sell, and the things I don't know, Mike tells me (like the Chlorine in this Alligator Piss we call Tap Water).... it can't be good for a fragile animal....

Neil

 

[The BoidSmith]

I don’t know Michael or Adam.

A person who sent an animal with no-payment upfront in replacement for another that died past his guarantee period is by no means a bad guy. And no, I don’t think you need to defend yourself here Adam, but when you accuse a person of bad guy and sub par animals you need to back up your claims with facts, maybe pictures or some other sort of proof. The question is, are you going to pay what you owe Michael? Because as you stated he went out of his way, replaced the animal, and at this point everything from his own pocket. It is my belief than neither you or Michael are bad guys. But if you are in this for the long run it would be very important to pay all your outstanding debts, whether you like it or not.

Take care.

 

[ravensgait]

Adam, There have been questions asked of you here that I hope you will answer. If you have any photos of these animals post them so we can see what your talking about.

Michael has a very good reputation in the community that he has worked hard for. And though I think very highly of Michael if he has misrepresented these animals or is guilty of a bad deal with you I think most here can be objective. But from what you have posted so far it looks like he is guilty of no wrong doing and if anything it appears he has gone out of his way to satisfy a customer. So if you have more evidence please post it here.
Randy

 

[Ballroom]

The truth The whole truth and Nothing but the truth

To all concerned.
This is in response to Adams Comments. Just wanted to shed some light on the transaction and to point out a few relevant points Adam Missed...

"I purchased a pair of Uroplatus phantasticus from Michael a few months ago for $300. Both animals were supposedly "fancy" which is how he justified the price."

In the following E-mails you will see that Not only was Adam supplied with pictures of the animals he chose, but he was also offered a choice of fancies or "normals " at a lower price...

"The animals arrived freezing cold and skin and bones. The male died about a week later. When I asked for a replacement, Michael told me I had waited too long and that he would replace the male if I paid what he pays to import the geckos plus shipping ($68)."

The temps were 46 high and 33 low when I shipped the geckos. They were packed in a 12x9x6 insulated Stiro with heat packs for that temp. If they did arrive cold,I was never notified. until 10 days after he got the animals.When the male died. Still then he said the female looked great, and Again,
He picked them from pictures 2 days before he got them...Still as you can see in the e-mails I was willing to work with Mr. Smith. No where did I tell him My cost of importation was 68.00 That price was based on a profit loss from this transaction.

"I agreed against my better judgement since I was now stuck with a single female and was sent another male. The second male was extremely underweight and died after about 3 weeks."

Again,
Even after our discussion about the guarantee,I was never notified of a problem with the second gecko until 43 days (6 weeks) after I shipped it When I e-mailed Him to ask politely if he had sent the payment. Then he told me it died just that day( See E-mail)

"I had not paid Michael for the second male up to this point and approached him about its death. He said it was entirely my fault that both males died, siting my use of "city water" as the culprit. According to him "the chlorine killed them." Why then has my female survived the entire time up to the present on the same water? "


If you look at the e-mails I told Mr. Smith I could Not be sure of the reason For the demise of his animals without a necropsy. it was in a telephone conversation that I made to Adam after his Rather rude e-mail Letting him know that I would be expecting the payment that the discussion about water came up. We were discussing his husbandry and I asked where he gets his misting water from. He said City water. I mentioned that that was not a good idea as It was chlorinated and can cause problems...

"To sum up:
1) Michael Cole sells subpar animals"

7 years of business Selling reptiles Some CB and Some Wild Caught. I have never Not worked with a customer with problems to an agreeable resolution. Till this time. Apparently some people assume that being reasonable means bending over and taking one for the team... Sorry. My A## tat says exit only..

"2) If you are going to buy from him, don't fall for his increased prices for "fancy" animals that are exactly the same as the regular ones."

Purchase what you will I never refuse to take Close up Detailed Digital Photographs of any animal I have for sale. If your not convinced it is worth my price I do not pressure anyone to purchase.
In this case Mr Smith was offered Animals at Both price ranges,
The normals and fancies. He chose the ones he wanted.

"3) If you buy from him and your animals die, he won't replace the animal for free or refund your money"


My guarantee is 24 hours and 100% satisfaction. I have never refused to have an animal picked up at my own expense if there was a problem. I just need notification in a decant time frame and I will work with anyone that is reasonable. Demanding Things and threatening To ".Destroy " reputations do not seem reasonable to me.especially after 10 and 43 days after getting your animals

"4) He's quick to make excuses that are completely ridiculous and unfounded to place the blame on you"

If you purchase and WC animal and call me 10 or 43 days after you get it after being told it is a WC and being told it has not had a full de-worming or fecals done; After accepting it as 100 percent satisfying to you . I will probably not accept too much responsibility for the animals demise. But I will certainly try to help you to replace it reasonably or help you figure out what went wrong. All you need to do is to ask.


Below are the e-mails between Myself and Adam. Please feel free to read them and make up your own mind about Myself and Ballroom Pythons South..
This should Clear up any confusion.





Do you still have them? Are they wild
caught? If so have you treated them for parasites and hydrated them?


This pair is sold, But I Just got more, I
have hydrated them, And they are given
panicur solution But not to be considered
to be a full de-worming
Thanks
Michael Cole
Ballroom Pythons South

How much for pairs and trios shipped to
Fredonia NY? Do you have pics?

I will need your zip code for a shipping
quote. I have 300.00 pairs and 225.00 pairs
What is your preference. Pricing is based on
color morphology. Sorry, No lone females, or
trios. Thanks Michael Cole
Ballroom Pythons South


My ZIP is 14063.
Do you have pics? I want to see what I would be paying extra for.


here is a fancy pair of Phantasticus.(pic.) enclosed
Thanks
Michael Cole
Ballroom Pythons South


I'll take a fancy pair. My address is Adam Smith
44 Canadaway St Fredonia NY 14063. How would you
like to receive payment? Please ship so they will
be here on a Wednesday (it's easier for me to be
here all day to sign for them). Also, it's been
cold here and probably will be for a while. Ship
at your discretion. Thanks.
Adam


Adam
Our paypal address is [email protected].
Please include your address and tele# and shipping
day request.in the paypal notes. Or you can send a
money order. If that is your option, Let me know
and I will send you our mailing address. Your total
to Fredonia will be 338.00 No problem with Wed
arrival, this week as long >> as the weather
cooperates, Otherwise I will wait till the following
week unless I hear otherwise from you. Thanks
Michael Cole
Ballroom Pythons South


The male satanic leaftail I purchased from you has
died. He looked sickly and dehydrated when I received
him but you assured me all your geckos were well
hydrated and doing well. The female is doing
fantastically and looks great. I would like
compensation for the male.
Adam Smith


Adam,
I am at a bit of a loss of what to say,
I was under the impression that your satanics arrived
fine since I did not hear from you otherwise.( 10
days) If you would have let me know that there was a
problem when you received them, I would have done
everything in my power to help you get him through it,
and replaced him on the event of his death. I have a
very good reputation for having Great leaftails, and
great customer service, but my guarantee is... 100%
satisfaction on arrival,and for 24 hours following the
arrival, If for any reason in that time you are not
happy with your purchase, I will have them picked up
and return your money. That leaves me to this dilemma,
I will be glad to help you out on the price of a
replacement male, But I do not feel in this case that
I am responsible for a free replacement. Please feel
free to call me or e-mail me to discuss this further, I
am willing to work with you on this matter, As I hate
to see anyone lose an animal or their hard earned
money. Fortunately I do have more males. What I
recommend is that I will send you a replacement male
for 30.00 plus the 38.00 shipping. That will be the
cost of a male minus the profit I would have made on
this transaction had there not been a loss. I am of the
opinion that given the circumstances, This is more than
fair.But I would like your opinion also. Thanks
Michael Cole
Ballroom Pythons South


I appreciate your willingness to correct this problem.
seeing your guarantee. I understand that you are in an
odd position here and I hope you don't think me
unreasonable but I am in quite a financial bind. I
really don't have the finances to pay more than $50 for
a replacement. If this is an unacceptable solution I
suppose we can negotiate further, but I would have to
sell some of my baby cresteds to get the money. This
will take some time. Thanks for your cooperation.

Adam


Adam,
I am sure you just missed our guarantee,
It is written into every add we place. I will be glad to
send you a replacement on your word that you will pay
for it when your finances allow. Please re-send me your
shipping information and tele# for the packing label,
Thanks Michael Cole
Ballroom Pythons South


Thank you so much. My address is 44 Canadaway St Fredonia NY
14063 and my phone # is 716-998-8085. I will pay for him as
soon as I can sell a crested off. Thanks again.

Adam


I will e-mail you with the tracking number tomorrow.
Thanks
Michael Cole
Ballroom Pythons South

Adam,
your male satanic will be there in the AM, Your UPS Shipping number is 1zrx72410142636579
Thanks
Michael Cole
Ballroom Pythons South


Adam,
I have not heard from you in some time, I am hoping
you just forgot about us.. We still are showing an
outstanding debt of 68.00 from the 29 of march. Please
advise us of the status of that payment. Thanks
Michael Cole
Ballroom Pythons South


The replacement male you sent me died today actually.
The female is still fine. If you can explain this to me
that'd be awesome. Otherwise you'll have to wait until I
sell the female. I'm getting out of Uroplatus and going
back to Rhacodactylus.

Adam

Adam,
I would assume at this point that that would be your best
bet. Obviously an explanation to you what happened to
your males is impossible not being there, not knowing
your husbandry processes or your food, water, etc, and
not having a necropsy report I would refuse to speculate.
I will wait till you get your female sold, but will I
have to get back with you or will you be contacting me?
Thanks
Michael Cole
Ballroom Pythons South


I will pay you if you so choose but I think it only fair to
warn you that if you want your money I will do everything in
my power to destroy your reputation. Two dead males is
unacceptable and both you and I know that you were selling
me under weight subadults. I have friends with phantasticus,
so I know what they're supposed to look like. I would
speculate a large parasite load in your animals. I don't
like being ripped off and I've lost a lot of money to you
already. So I will leave the choice up to you. Do you value
$68 more than your selling reputation?

Adam,
After our conversation a couple of weeks ago, I have been expecting your 68.00 payment. Just wondering if you were able to send it out yet?
Thanks
Michael Cole
Ballroom Pythons South

A day later Adam sent the 68.00 that same day he posted this thread.. Who's the bad guy.
P.S. I would not recommend selling to Adam. It seems as if he may be A Difficult Customer Not really worth the hassle. You make your own decision.
Thanks
Michael Cole
Ballroom Pythons South
863-439-3015

 

[Dennis Hultman]

Well after this post I went ahead and tried to order a couple of BRBs from Michael, unfortunately he already sold them. Darn.

Adam
The second male dies on the day your contacted about your outstanding debt? I seriously doubt it. The only reputation hurt here is yours.
Glad we have both sides of your little story

 

[hhmoore]

Thanks for a complete response, Michael. Guess that explains why Adam didn't post emails (as requested) or respond to any of the questions asked of him.

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

Adam

Here are the steps you need to save the ragged threads of your reputation.

1.) Apologize to Michael for being an unreasonable and manipulative tool.

2.) Apologize to this board for posting a spurious and unsubstantiated thread that cast negative light on a person who did everything to make the deal right.

3.) Give serious consideration to the fact that no one who has read this thread and, in particular, the Email exchange will ever do business with you again.

4.) Consider taking up another hobby.

You are the only big loser on this thread Adam. Next time, think before you post.

 

[Wilomn]

adam, you were totally in the wrong here.

Michael did everything a good seller should and then some and then YOU have the nerve to threaten his reputation. Bad move.

READ the TOS of anyone you buy from in the future. Take pictures upon arrival of anything you buy. Get vet checks for your new guys and necropsies if they die.

And, most important of all, GROW THE HECK UP. YOU blew it from the get go, NOT Michael.

 

[pch101]

Adam, I do not know you or Michael, but after looking at both sides I can say with confidence that you are the one that should be labled a bad guy (and a stupid bad guy at that). You lied about paying Michael, for the replacment. In essence, you conned/scammed him into sending you another animal and you never paid for it as agreed. You waited 10 days to say anything to Michael, and it clearly says 24 HOURS in his TOS. Then on the second male that you stole from Michael, you make up a nice BS story that it just died that day (43 days after you got it, and only after Michael called you inquiring about your overdue payment). Tell me that's not as fishy as a can of tuna. Then you top it off by posting a bad guy thread about Michael.

So to sum things up you ARE a lying scammer that cannot follow simple directions, that does not pay his debts, and that posts false bad posts about good guys. Way to go smart guy.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

Adam, I do not know you or Michael, but after looking at both sides I can say with confidence that you are the one that should be labled a bad guy (and a stupid bad guy at that). You lied about paying Michael, for the replacment. In essence, you conned/scammed him into sending you another animal and you never paid for it as agreed. You waited 10 days to say anything to Michael, and it clearly says 24 HOURS in his TOS. Then on the second male that you stole from Michael, you make up a nice BS story that it just died that day (43 days after you got it, and only after Michael called you inquiring about your overdue payment). Tell me that's not as fishy as a can of tuna. Then you top it off by posting a bad guy thread about Michael.

So to sum things up you ARE a lying scammer that cannot follow simple directions, that does not pay his debts, and that posts false bad posts about good guys. Way to go smart guy.

That about sums it up pretty well. Unless Adam wants to explain the mysterious death on the exact day Michael contacted him.

 

[Jim O]

Another case where the "Bad Guy" outs himself. Adam, here's your sign. Wear it with pride.