Mike (Chameleon Condo) - Went back on his word.

[CrittersNReps]

This is going to be rather lengthy, please bear with me.  I want to try to be as thorough as possible.  I will start off by posting all emails that transpired between Mike and myself on a trade that he came to me with on my 1.1 Adult Blue Ambanja's I posted for sale.  The pic of the male he sent me will be posted in a photo ablum on yahoo shortly for anyone who may want to view the problem area.  This pic is better than the one I posted in the general discussions area here trying to get any info on his nose before I decided to contact the vet.  I will come back here and post a link to the picture.  Here we go.....

Subj: PANTHER
Date: 8/24/02 12:19:43 PM Central Daylight Time
From: [email protected]
To: CrittersNReps


I have a panther that looks identical to the Male you have for sale. I am very interested. Can you send me your phone #.!!

Mike
Chameleon Condo
...........................................

Subj: PANTHER
Date: 8/24/02 12:27:52 PM Central Daylight Time
From: [email protected]
To: CrittersNReps


You can call me XXX-XXX-XXXX
Mike
Chameleon Condo
...........................................

Subj: Re: PANTHER
Date: 8/24/02 12:41:26 PM Central Daylight Time
From: CrittersNReps
To: [email protected]


Hi Mike,

My phone # is XXX-XXX-XXXX.  I'm in between long distance companies right now and unable to call out long distance.  I am attaching another pic of him that I just took a few minutes ago.  He is gorgeous and handlable.  Sometimes a little skittish and will run up on top of my head.  Depends on what mood he is in.  I look forward to your call.

Thanks,

Julie
......................................

Then I got a phone call from Mike discussing a trade, his male panther for my male panther which I indicated I wanted to sell the pair together if possible.  I explained that I had my hands full at the moment with my dragons and babies, veileds and eggs that will be hatching in about month or so.  I really didn't have the time to focus more on my panthers breeding at this time, could really use the monies to replenish my funds for feeding my dragons, etc. and would rather them both go together and I really wasn't sure I wanted to trade instead of selling them outright.  I explained that I am a one person hobbyist breeder here.  Doing this by myself.  Well, he gave me some info on his male saying he was about 5-6 months old, that he is blue one minute and red the next, very friendly and so on.  He did not want to give me what I was asking, in which, I very hesitant to deal because I know my panthers were well worth my asking price together ($650 shipped) especially being ready to breed (my male being 16 mos. old and my female being 15 mos. old), in which case they were already put together a few days or so before I decided to post them for sale.  We spoke on the phone for about an hour or so.  I reluctantly decided to go ahead with the trade of his male plus $300 cash ($100 less than what I was asking, with his trade value of his male $250 plus cash along with paying our own shipping to) for my pair, thinking well, I will not totally have to give up panthers for now and would still have one to start with when I am able to acquire another female down the line to breed with this male and when I am able to focus on my panther project more.  The conversation was quite lengthy and I asked about a pic of his male panther which he said he would send me.  Payment was sent via pay pal well before he sent the picture of his male panther which wound up being a link to an ad he posted on Kingsnake of flashing photos that I studied over and over again looking for any flaws he may have (anything that may possibly be wrong with him visually).  Notice on the next email with the pic link that the male is 4.5 mos old instead of 5-6 mos old as originally mentioned.  No big deal I thought.  He's only 1/2 mo to 1 1/2 mos younger than he originally stated.  I can deal with that.  The link below is the AMBANJA CHAMELEON AWESOME (PIC) in which the ad has been removed a few days or so after this email and does not work anymore.

Now to go back to the emails after the conversation.........

Subj: 4.5 MONTH PANTHER
Date: 8/24/02 9:57:48 PM Central Daylight Time
From: [email protected]
To: CrittersNReps


THIS IS THE CHAM THAT I WILL BE SENDING TO YOU. I HAVE IT POSTED FOR $350.00 SHIPPED. I WAS ABLE TO GET GOOD PICS. I HAVE A BROTHER OF HIS. I WILL SELL THE BROTHER TO WHOEVER RESPONDS TO THE ADD. DON'T WORRY, THE CHAM IN THE ADD IS YOURS. HERE IS A LINK. LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU THINK. AMBANJA CHAMELEON AWESOME (PIC)

Mike
Chameleon Condo
..............................................

Subj: Re: 4.5 MONTH PANTHER
Date: 8/24/02 11:38:19 PM Central Daylight Time
From: CrittersNReps
To: [email protected]


Hi Mike,

He looks to be pretty nice.  He could possibly color up to be really nice since he still has alot of growing/coloring up to do.  Thank you for showing me a picture of him.  I know I am really going to miss my blue male and female once they are gone, but some times you have to do what you have to do.  I look forward to receiving him.  Atleast I will still have another panther to grow attached to.  Thanks again and let me know where they need to be sent and what day the weather is good for receiving them.

Thanks,

Julie
..........................................

Subj: Panther
Date: 8/25/02 7:19:12 PM Central Daylight Time
From: [email protected]
To: CrittersNReps


Julie,

You can go ahead and ship tomorrow(Monday), here is the address you will be shipping to:

Attn: XXXXXXXXXXXXThis being his wife's place of employment
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

We will also be shipping to you tomorrow, please send me the address you would like me to ship to.

P.S Make sure to make your shipment for next day by 12:00pm, we will do the same.

Mike
Chameleon Condo
...............................................

Subj: Re: Panther
Date: 8/25/02 7:33:24 PM Central Daylight Time
From: CrittersNReps
To: [email protected]


Hi Mike,

Sounds good.  I will ship out tomorrow FedEx and they should be there by 10:30 am Tuesday.  Like I mentioned before, I wait almost until FedEx closes to drop them off so it will be probably around 8 pm before I get back to you with the tracking #.  You can ship him to:

Julie Mason
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXX

Thanks again,

Julie
.................................................

Subj: 4.5 month old Panther
Date: 8/26/02 8:07:28 AM Central Daylight Time
From: CrittersNReps
To: [email protected]


Hi Mike,

I just had a few questions about the male you are sending me.  Who did he come from (originally)?  You did say that he is in perfect health (no signs of MBD, etc)?  He was sold to you as a red bar?  Was he captive bred?  Do you know what generation he is?  What was your garuantee on him (I think I remeber you saying 7 days but wanted to make sure)?  I just want to keep this info for my records in case I decide to acquire a female at another time (later down the line when I have more time to focus on breeding them).

Thanks,

Julie
........................................

Subj: Re: 4.5 month old Panther
Date: 8/26/02 9:43:16 AM Central Daylight Time
From: [email protected]
To: CrittersNReps


The Ambanja you are getting came from a breeder in Canada, which is very good, because he is a new bloodline. He is in perfect health. He eats like crazy. We offer a 72 HR guarantee on all our chams. This guy is in perfect health. I will give you a 7 day guarantee. Will you give me the same. I have had him for 3 months and have never a single problem with him.

Mike
Chameleon Condo
...........................................

Subj: Re: 4.5 month old Panther
Date: 8/26/02 10:56:38 AM Central Daylight Time
From: CrittersNReps
To: [email protected]


Hi Mike,

Yes, a 7 day guarantee is fine as long as they are in your care and have not been sold into someone else's care.  But do you have more specifics on the breeder in Canada (a name), is the male CB, and do you know what generation he is, if captive bred?  If I do decide to acquire a female later down the line I want to make sure she is not related and would like to have some specific's on the male.

Thanks,

Julie
..........................................

Subj: Re: 4.5 month old Panther
Date: 8/26/02 11:14:35 AM Central Daylight Time
From: [email protected]
To: CrittersNReps


He is CBB. He is 2nd generation of CBB, and as far as where they came from, I bought 5 of them from a distributor. He got them from a breeder in Canada. I don't know anybody's names. Because they come from Canada it will be easy to a different bloodline female.

Mike
Chameleon Condo
..............................................

Subj: (no subject)
Date: 8/26/02 8:43:08 PM Central Daylight Time
From: CrittersNReps
To: [email protected]


Hi Mike,

Here is the FedEx tracker # XXXXXXXXXXXX.  They should be there by 10:30 am tomorrow.  Please send my tracker # for the male so I can keep an eye on him.

Thanks,

Julie
...........................................

Subj: Re: (no subject)
Date: 8/26/02 8:47:49 PM Central Daylight Time
From: [email protected]
To: CrittersNReps


Julie,

Here is the UPS Tracking #XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX, it should also be arriving by 10:30am.  Please email me when you receive him, I will do the same.

Mike
Chameleon Condo
.............................................

Subj: Re: (no subject)
Date: 8/26/02 8:48:56 PM Central Daylight Time
From: CrittersNReps
To: [email protected]


Mike,

I sure will.  Thanks.

Julie
..................................................

Subj: (no subject)
Date: 8/27/02 8:35:57 AM Central Daylight Time
From: [email protected]
To: CrittersNReps


Julie,

Just incase you check on the tracking as I did this morning.....do not be alarmed (I was) it said that the shipment was rescheduled for Wednesday (the package I am sending to you).  So i called them and she informed me that it is a mistake in their system and the Cham will be delivered today by 10:30am. : )

Mike
Chameleon Condo
.............................................

Subj: Re: (no subject)
Date: 8/27/02 8:40:32 AM Central Daylight Time
From: CrittersNReps
To: [email protected]


Mike,

Okay, thank you for letting me know in advance.  I didn't get a chance just yet to check it but was going to in a few minutes.  I tell you, my male and female were so frightened when I put them in there boxes they were trying to get out.  I hope they do okay.

Thanks,

Julie
..............................................

Subj: (no subject)
Date: 8/27/02 10:54:48 AM Central Daylight Time
From: CrittersNReps
To: [email protected]


Hi Mike,

He made it safe and sound.  He is nicer looking in person though a little nervous and unsure about his new surroundings.  I have given him water and he is eating.  Do you by any chance know what is up with his nose?  He has some dark spotting around the tip of his nose indicating maybe slight nose rub or something.  I'll take a picture and send it to you as soon as I can.

Thanks,

Julie
.................................................

Subj:  Re: (no subject)
Date: 8/27/02 12:44:38 PM Central Daylight Time
From: [email protected]
To: CrittersNReps


Julie,

Hello, this is Sonya, Mikes wife.....I am glad to hear that you recieved the little guy and all was good.  I also just received the two chams and they are just fine i will be leaving from work with them right now so that i may take them home and get them settled in.

Thanks,
Sonya
............................................

Subj: Re: (no subject)
Date: 8/27/02 12:55:03 PM Central Daylight Time
From: CrittersNReps
To: [email protected]


Hi Sonya,

Thank you for letting me know that they made it safe and sound and doing fine.  I couldn't help but worry about them.

Thanks,

Julie
..............................................

Subj: (no subject)
Date: 8/27/02 4:57:49 PM Central Daylight Time
From: CrittersNReps
To: [email protected]
File: APRM_nose.ZIP (1409631 bytes) DL Time (48000 bps): < 8 minutes


Hi Mike,

I am attaching a few pics of his nose.  Do you know what this is from or what happened to his nose?

Julie
............................................

Well, after the above email I sent and the one before this I sent, I figured he would respond atleast in a 24 hr period.  When he did not respond and I felt like I was being avoided, I sent this one below.  I was really pissed and felt like I was burned on this deal when I sent my pair of stunning and flawless panthers that arrived with no flaws from shipping either with this being my first time ever shipping chameleons and his male came in with what looked to be a nose rub that does not look to me to be new.  Now for the next email I sent before I got a response via email and a phone call from Mike after that, wereas I was polite on the phone with Mike about the situation, which in my emails to follow indicates what the call was all about and things said in the conversation by Mike and what I did at that time.....................................

Subj: (no subject)
Date: 8/28/02 12:32:52 PM Central Daylight Time
From: CrittersNReps
To: [email protected]


Mike,

This male you sent me cannot be the same male in your ad, as the pics in the ad did not show any type of snout damage.  I watched the pics over and over to make sure nothing was wrong with him (flaws).  Upon receiving the male you sent me (noticing his snout right away) and having time to look at his snout in more detail, I emailed you to let you know I received him, that he was nicer looking in person and asked you about his snout.  I also sent you pics of the damage to you and I still have not had a response from you.  I sent you a very nice pair of Blue Ambanja chameleons with no flaws and I expected the same from you from what I saw in the pictures and the question I asked you "You did say that he is in perfect health (no signs of MBD, etc)?" and you answered with "I have had him for 3 months and have never a single problem with him".  I would take that the "etc." would include any flaws also, as everybody else would too.  I don't understand why you have not replied to my email yet when you had no problem replying to them very quickly through the transaction and up until I received him and let you know he made it safe and sound with the snout flaw and Sonya emailed me back to let me know she received the pair I sent you and they were just fine.  The pictures did not show any flaws, this flaw was not mentioned up front and it was not included in the deal.  I have had some input on what this type of damage can play into, when trying to breed a female with him if the damage does not heal properly or totally go away.  You were made well aware before shipping him that I may acquire a female later down the line to breed with him when I had more time to focus on their breeding.  Not to mention, I don't want and didn't expect a panther that has any flaws and should not be expected to wait and see if it does heal properly, etc.  Yes, you can believe I am very pissed over this, especially after emailing you with no response to this matter.  I am demanding that this transaction be reversed and you pay the shipping on both this time and refund my shipping cost of $37.74 for the shipping of my pair of chams to you or I can subtact my shipping cost plus the shipping cost to send this male back to you from the $300 to be sent back to you via Pay Pal.  This will make it like you never responded to my ad and I am not loosing anything, which is the way it started out in the first place before you responded.

Julie
..............................................

Subj:  Re: (no subject)
Date: 8/28/02 12:49:05 PM Central Daylight Time
From: [email protected]
To: CrittersNReps


Julie,

I am sorry we did not get back to you sooner. This is Sonya by the way.  Mike did not get home from work last night untill 9pm, that is when we went over the pictures you sent.  The Ambanja that we sent you is the same in the pics....i realize that the nose damage was also not in the pics, and when i shipped him there was also no nose damage......i dont know if he may have rubbed it on the branch that was in the container or what? We too were puzzled by the photos you sent. We where definatley not trying to avoid you, just both very busy with our day jobs.   I will call Mike when i have my lunch break and let him know about your email.

Sincerely,
Sonya
Chameleon Condo
.................................................

Subj: Re: (no subject)
Date: 8/28/02 1:35:08 PM Central Daylight Time
From: CrittersNReps
To: [email protected]


Hi Sonya,

Thank you for emailing me and letting me know somewhat of what is going as to why Mike or yourself were not able to respond to my email from yesterday.

Thanks,

Julie
..................................................

Then the phone call came from Mike.

..................................................

Subj: (no subject)
Date: 8/31/02 11:50:10 AM Central Daylight Time
From: CrittersNReps
To: [email protected]
File: SnoutCloseup.ZIP (899399 bytes) DL Time (48000 bps): < 5 minutes


Hi Mike,

I have decided to go with reversing the transaction.  I tried the soakings repeatedly and still no change.  It really looks as if the bubbled area on his snout that should protude in an out and upward manner does not, indicating to me its pushed in some.  Compare this pictures I am attaching of him to the 5 month old males pic you just posted on kingsnake and look at the point of their snouts.  You will see the difference I am talking about.  At this time, I prefer to just reverse to transaction and all, as mentioned in the last email.  I still do not have a long distance carrier at this time and I am unable to call you.  If you would like to call me, please feel free to do so.

Thanks,

Julie
.................................................

Subj: Fwd: (no subject)
Date: 9/2/02 12:18:48 PM Central Daylight Time
From: CrittersNReps
To: [email protected]
File: SnoutCloseup.ZIP (899399 bytes) DL Time (48000 bps): < 5 minutes


Hi Mike,

I am sending this email a 2nd time to make sure you received it if you did not receive it the 1st time I sent it on 8/31.

Thanks,

Julie
............................................

Once again, by this time, I felt as I was being avoided having to send a 2nd email 2 days later since there was no response to my 1st email on 8/31.

.............................................
Subj: PANTHER
Date: 9/2/02 10:18:36 PM Central Daylight Time
From: [email protected]
To: CrittersNReps


After looking at the pics and sending them to other breeders, we have come to the conclusion that those little black spots happened during shipping. That's why I didn't know what you were talking about at first. The cham rubbed his nose in the container looking for a way out. The guarantee I offer is for health problems, and since the cham is in perfect health, I'm not obligated to trade back. More then likely the spots will go away during his next shed. There is no way I will trade back and pay all the shipping charges ($120.00). If you are that unhappy with the cham I will trade back, if you pick up the shipping. That means you will send back the cham, and the $300.00 + the $30.00 for the first shipping and $30.00 for the second shipping. Total will be $360.00 and the chameleon. The spots that you are talking about will not effect the cham in any way.

Mike
Chameleon Condo
.............................................

At this time Mike was expecting me to pay all shipping charges across the board for him sending me a flawed male that I was not happy with because of the flaw and some of things I found out about the flaw and possibilty that a female would not breed with him because of this, that I was not aware of from the very beginning but mentioned in an earlier email to him when I did find this out.  This is ubsurd in my book.  Well, I thought about it and decided I will share some of the cost but not all of it by paying shipping for my pair back to me and his male back to him in the email to follow just to get my chams back from him and let this all be done with and he could have his flawed male back.  I had already paid for shipping my chams to him from the get go and he paid for his male to me.  Also, remember I have never shipped chams before and they showed up with no flaws, not even due to shipping and he has done this many many times from the way he spoke about it via our 1st phone conversation before shipping...............................

Subj: (no subject)
Date: 9/3/02 5:59:47 PM Central Daylight Time
From: CrittersNReps
To: [email protected]


Mike,

Let me know when you are ready to ship them and I will ship your male.  Have them bill my account when you send them out ( I have an account with UPS now).  If that is the way you want to handle your business, go back on your word, and are wanting to charge me for the shipping for both to get my pair back and send your male back to you because I was not happy you sent me a flawed panther, I guess I will just have to pay it, huh.  When I receive my tracker # from you showing my chams have been shipped back to me, I will transfer the funds ($300) back to you via paypal as it was sent to me.  Don't worry, I will not burn you by going back on my word as I feel you have done me.  My word means something and as it is in writing here, which I can be held accountable for by not doing as I say I will (which obviously your word does not mean anything, per our conversation via phone on August 28, 2002, when you had no problem reversing the transaction since I was not happy your male came in with a snout rub and you even mentioned the 7 day guarantee at that time but suggested to give it him a few days with soakings to see if there is any change (which was still inside that 7 day guarantee) and would not hold that against me if there was no change for trying what you said and would reverse the transaction if I contacted you about it after the 2-3 days).  I can't just go on your word after you have already gone back on it, as mentioned above.

The right thing to do in this situation since I received your male with a snout rub due to what had to be bad packaging on your behalf since you think this happened while he was being shipped and you received my pair in perfect condition would be to pay for the shipping of my pair back to me and I will be glad to pay the shipping of your male back to you, which is what I am suggesting here.

Julie
...............................................

Subj: (no subject)
Date: 9/4/02 11:47:08 PM Central Daylight Time
From: [email protected]
To: CrittersNReps


We made a deal. I would send you 1 male panther and $300.00 and you would send me 1 male and 1 female. I gave you a 7 day guarantee (for health problems, sick or dying or dead ). The chameleon I sent you is very healthy. You cant say that a nose rub is a flaw. Chameleons walk through bushes, dig, mate, fight (you get the point) it is not uncommon for them to get nose rubs. If you fall on the ground and scrape your knee, are you now FLAWED? I have lived up to my terms, so I will not trade back. In my last letter I said I would, but only if you paid all the shipping, and I wrote it out very clearly. You wrote that you did want to trade back, but the way you wanted to was different then the way that I suggested. I have wasted way to much time on this matter, because the cham you are complaining about is 100,000,000,000% healthy

Mike
Chameleon Condo
.............................................

Subj: Re: (no subject)
Date: 9/5/02 2:02:50 PM Central Daylight Time
From: CrittersNReps
To: [email protected]


Mike,

Upon speaking to a vet along with pics sent via email to check out his nose rub, I was notified that this male's nose rub is an old injury (not caused in the shipping) and the male you sent me is not 100% Ambanja.  The vets exact words are "he is a cross between an Ambanja female and possibly a male Sambava or even Diego Suarez".  So I did some checking up on this and found XXXXX, the guy whom you could not give me his name or his breeder friend in Canada, only to find out that the male is definitely a cross and not 100% Ambanja which indicates to me he is not worth the trade value you put on him especially if he were to be sterile due to local crossing.  Now with all this info, and knowing that you have been dealing with panthers long enough to possibly know he was not 100% and possibly a cross, I certainly feel burned big time by you and will just have to post about my trade with you and my findings on the bio since you want it to end in this manner.  I was hoping to work this out, but to no avail, no matter what I said I was willing to do (pay for 3 of the shippings, one of which I already have, sending my pair to you), you will not budge.  If you have sold the other male sibling to this little guy you may want to let them know my findings and if you still have him, you may want to not post them as Ambanja's anymore either, now that you know through me via this email that they are not 100% Ambanja's.

Julie
........................................

Not long before I sent the email above, I was told by a fellow herper friend, not the vet, about the possible sterility problem that the offspring (this male) may have from this locale cross breeding may cause.
.........................................

Subj: Re: (no subject)
Date: 9/5/02 8:01:37 PM Central Daylight Time
From: [email protected]
To: CrittersNReps


1 st of all, a vet can't tell if a nose rub is new or old by looking at a picture, and if it wasn't caused by shipping, what does your vet say it was caused by? 2nd of all I have pictures of the cham about 12 hours before I shipped. He had no marks at all. 3rd XXXXX sent me a copy of the email that he sent you.>>>>>>>No, I did not as I myself have only discovered this recently.  I am sorry to hear about your misfortune.  I hope you can work things out with Mike.  I have always had a good and trusting business relationship with him.  I believe he would not deceive you purposely.  I know that he has always been willing to bend over backwards to please his customers and establish good relationships.  I truly believe the nose rub may be temporary.  Apply a little mineral oil on it until his next shedding.  About the Ambanja morph.  I had Jim Nasaki from Amazing Blue and other breeders truly tell me that they have seen Ambanjas with this very coloration before and said that they would call it an Ambanja also.  I am sorry and I hope everything works out for you.>>>>>. It does not say anywhere that I new that I knew that there was a possibility of them being a cross. It says that other breeders looked at them and said that they have seen Ambanjas look just like the cham you have. It says that only recently did he find this out, and I was not notified. I wrote XXXXX after you mentioned him in you letter. This is how I got a copy of the email. When I got the chams they were 3 months old. I had no Idea that there was a possibility of a cross, and we still aren't sure. All I know is that these are awesome looking and very healthy chams.

Mike
Chameleon Condo
.........................................

Subj: Re: (no subject)
Date: 9/6/02 7:53:56 AM Central Daylight Time
From: CrittersNReps
To: [email protected]


Mike,

I never said you knew this nor did I say XXXXX said you knew this, but that you have been dealing with panthers long enough to possibly know he was not 100% and possibly a cross.  If not, that I am now making you aware of this as of my last email to you.  I had no doubt you could get a copy of the email from XXXXX and I did not say anything different than what he said either, just that they were not 100%.

The vet did not say what caused this.  Like you said in an earlier email, "it could be from a walk through bushes, dig, mate, fight (you get the point) it is not uncommon for them to get nose rubs."  As far as what XXXXX says here "I believe he would not deceive you purposely. I know that he has always been willing to bend over backwards to please his customers and establish good relationships. I truly believe the nose rub may be temporary."  Yes, I believed this at 1st also, when you called me to see what was wrong after you got my email letting you know how angry I was about his nose, and your 7 day guarantee seemed to include this at the time because you were willing to reverse the deal, but I guess you were just blowing smoke, so to say, to calm me down, since you have gone back on your word now.   Saying one thing and doing the total opposite of that does not make you a good guy in my book.  Maybe you do have pics of him 12 hours before he was shipped or then again maybe the pics are of his brother.  But then again, you may have thought I was just a peon in the market and could get by with sending him this way to me.  Another point is, if you say a vet can't tell if a nose rub is new or old by looking at a picture, how were you and the breeders you spoke to and sent pics to, able to come to the conclusion "that those little black spots happened during shipping. That's why I didn't know what you were talking about at first. The cham rubbed his nose in the container looking for a way out."  Those were your exact words.  The photo showed no fresh wounds and in person it does not look fresh either.  It looks as if it has been healing for sometime now.  Has XXXXX ever bought any chams from you?  And if so, hey, that deal could have gone through nicely where he didn't receive one from you like I did with the snout rub.  I have tried to be fair with this, saying I would pay his shipping back to you and you pay shipping for my pair back to me, in which case the snout rub is not my fault after initially demanding them back with you covering all shipping costs across the board, so it to be like I never even dealt with you.  You then say I would have to pay all the shippings across the board and I went above and beyond what I thought was reasonable for something that is not my fault in the first place and responded I would pay the shipping for my pair back to me and the shipping for the male back to you and to no avail, you do not want to work with me.  And yes, I did say I would wait to send the $300 via paypal until I received my tracker # showing my pair has been sent back to me since I can not trust your word any longer to do what you said you will when you have gone back on your word already.  It only takes one time to go back on your word with most people, like myself, to break the trust factor.  I did not go back on my word here and break the trust factor, you did.  I definitely should not have to pay the shipping across the board for something that came to me this way and you received mine in perfect condition.  I will tell you now, that since this ordeal, I will not send my trade at the same time when someone comes to me for the trade as you did.  I trusted you since your name has been out there and no bad posts were posted that I am aware of, but there is a first time for everything, huh.  Even if the cham did not have this rub before shipping as you indicated he did not, I received him this way and upon my notifying you of this, you were more than willing to reverse the deal but suggested giving it a few days to see if it was possibly old shed that needed to come off (which I did) and you went back on your word when the time came that there was no change (even after he shed before my email I sent you) and I told you I wanted my pair back.  I guess you don't get it.  The principal here is you said you would reverse the deal if I came back to you when there was no change and you went back on your word saying, "well, my 7 day guarantee is only for health, dead, or dying, etc.) that you are hiding behind, which is bad business in my book and probably a lot of other peoples too after you brought up the 7 day guarantee on the phone at the time you contacted me after my email to you about his snout, saying you would reverse the transaction and thats what the guarantee was for, about the customer being happy, and if I was not happy, and so on.  All I can say is, I keep my word Mike and obviously yours does not mean that much to you to keep yours.  Anyway, getting past all this, what is it going to take to get my pair back (and I don't mean whereas I have to pay all the shipping across the board in this deal from start to finish) and return your male to you or are you still going back on your word in which you probably never intended to ever reverse the deal in the 1st place?

Julie
.............................................

This was the last of the emails with no response from Mike, as of the time of this posting.  I gave Mike ample time to respond and do what I believe was the right thing to do after he gave me his word that he would reverse the transaction before and after he suggested that I give the male he sent me a few days of soakings/mistings in the shower to see if it was old shed that just needed to come off in which case I did and it did not as I indicated in earlier emails that his snout looks to be somewhat pushed in on top of the male having the black spots, etc.  The last email above that I sent has been viewed by Mike and/or his wife within minutes after I sent it to them on 9/6.  How do I know this?  The mail status button on my email to Mike shows when it was viewed.  Well, anyway, I hope Mike will do the right thing here as he said he would do very early on in our phone conversation by reversing the deal.  I wanted to let everyone know of my ordeal with him and let you all make your own decision if you will deal with him and if you possibly want to come across the same problem I have had with him.  I know there is going to probably be a ton of questions and I will do my best to answer any and all to the best of my ability.  It has taking me a while to just get this posted on here since the last email I sent him, waiting ample time for a response from Mike and due to being very busy with an overload of baby dragons at this time, personal matters and such.  Sorry for any misspellings, etc. and being redundent in alot of my emails but I like to try to make everything as clear as I can.  I hope I covered everything.  I was kind of in a hurry to post this.  Oh, one more thing, I'm sorry, but I cannot and will not disclose the vets name.  The vet is ligit.  This person does not want to be brought into this by helping me to determine what the problem was with the males snout and I intend to honor that decision.  Thanks for reading about my ordeal.

Julie Mason

 

[CrittersNReps]

Here is the link to the photo album.  I posted several pics of the male Mike sent me:

Photo Album (New Male Panther)


Julie Mason

 

[Casey Hulse]

In my opinion there should be some type of "satisfaction guarantee" as well as the one that was stated about health. It is very hard to tell from pictures, the exact condition of an animal. Maybe the nose rub was there, maybe not, regardless whos fault it is, if you recieved an animal that is not to your satisfaction BECAUSE of a flaw, you should not suffer in the deal.

 

[CrittersNReps]

Hi Casey,

When I spoke to Mike via phone after he received my 2nd email in regards to the males snout rub upon receiving him, the 7 day guarantee did seem to include this and he was more than willing to reverse to transaction but had suggested that I, maybe give the male a few more days with shower mistings to see if it was old skin that needed to come off.  So, I did try this (being fair about it and giving it a chance) and asked him if I did this, if there was no change would he hold it against me (still being inside the 7 day guarantee) if I contacted him letting him know there was no change and that I wanted to go through with the reversal of this transaction and his reply was, "No (meaning he would not hold it against me), I did give you a 7 day guarantee, thats what its for and if you are not happy" and so on.  But now, Mike has changed his mind and is trying to hide behind the 7 day guarantee saying it is only for health, dead, or dying, etc., which indicates to me he was only blowing smoke, so to say, to smooth this out at that time and make me beleive he would reverse the deal.

Julie

 

[Pennebaker]

I've seen numerous photos of the animal in question.  It looks like definate nose rub that could not have happened during shipping.  It is black (scarred) and new tissue is present (healing). If it happened during shipping it would be much fleshier and signs would have been found in the shipping container (blood, tissue).  The photo on the discussion forum shows that pretty well--those arent where nostrils are on a cham--that is where the snout (usually) comes out to a double point for an ambanja.

As for Mike saying that this nose rub is "not a flaw"

"You cant say that a nose rub is a flaw. Chameleons walk through bushes, dig, mate, fight (you get the point) it is not uncommon for them to get nose rubs. If you fall on the ground and scrape your knee, are you now FLAWED? I have lived up to my terms, so I will not trade back. In my last letter I said I would, but only if you paid all the shipping, and I wrote it out very clearly."  (Sorry couldnt figure out the quote thing)

First it happened during the shipping, now it is not a flaw???  You have to be kidding to have sent out a chameleon with nose rub and not have been upfront about that.  Even people selling WC panthers need to let buyers know about any scars, or physical flaws.  And this guy is CB! That is like me sending a bearded dragon with a nipped tail to someone without telling them--they'd be irate!  "it's not a flaw" I could say "it happens all the time in the wild".  That is pretty bad and means for a reversal of the trade.  

If that is not enough of a reason for reversal, to then find out that it is not a pure Ambanja???  A hybrid???  I know I would be returning the animal.

Now for the trade reversal, when Mike was the one that was not upfront and sent a nose rubbed hybrid--why should Julie have to pay ALL of the shipping charges?<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>  

I'd be pretty upset to send out two nice ambanjas and get that animal in return. I believe she deserves a reversal of the trade and not have to pay all of the shipping charges--that is absolutely ridiculous.

I have never done business with Mike and now would not.  I have done business with Julie and know first hand how much she cares for her animals.  She is a top rate good person, who puts a lot of energy (and food&#33<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''> into her animals and her customers and business relations.  

Make this right.

Dana

 

[Lucas Denning]

Julie traded for a perfect male Ambanja Panther.  She got a flawed hybrid.  Plain and simple.  Mike, do what's right and ship the animals back and pay ALL of the shipping.
Lucas

 

[Darin Chappell]

Note to self:

Don't chams from Mike @ Chameleon Condo.  You don't know what you'll be getting, how it will arrive, or what he'll do about it once you're upset!

<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>

 

[Justyn]

I suggest Mike should pay Julie and additional $200.00 and she should keep the hybrid panther.  Why go through all the trouble to ship the panther back, it causes extra stress that the animal does not need.  
Thanks
Justyn

 

[Darin Chappell]

Sorry,

Obviously that should read "Don't BUY chams from . . ."

You'd think a guy that makes his living using words would be able to actually write them all down!
<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>

 

[ARKON]

Hey Julie, thanks for the heads up and thumbs down. I think this is one of those dreaded situations we all fear.  You trade your beloved and not to mention expensive animals/pets only to recieve some falsified mut with defects.  I feel for ya and hope the situation ends in your favor.  If I were you and the only way to get the animals back was by paying the shipping, then I would do it.  As is now your out 650$ and now own someone else's problem.  That nose looks like scar tissue, not something fresh or even recent!!!!!!!  Good luck and Keep us updated.

 

[paulweaver]

Thanks for the heads-up about Cham Condo.

I did a trade earlier this year with someone else, and had basically the same problem - traded a nice animal, got mutts in return.  I learned my lesson not to trade in the future.

 

[ChameleonCondo]

First of all, Julie is a simple case of someone selling there animals, and later realizing that they want them back. The cham I sent her was in 100% healthy. The deal we made wasn't even based on what kind of cham that I was sending her. She made the deal without even seeing what the cham looked like. I took pics just for her (after we made the deal), thats how I know that the black spots on his nose are new. It either happened during shipping or in her care.

As far as my guarantee, I gave her a 7 day guarantee for health reasons. 99% of reptile stores (on line or other) don't even give that. I honered my guarantee.

I have no problems dealing with costomers. But after someone calls you a liar, a cheat, and says I switched animals on them, I have no desire to work with them.

As far as the cham being crossed, he was sold to me as an Ambanja so thats what I sold it as. There is no proof that it is a cross. I have sent pics of this cham to other breeders, who have said they would call it an Ambanja.

After going back and forth with her,for about a week. And after her threats of posting about me here, her last words were "WHAT DO I HAVE TO DO TO GET MY CHAMS BACK" In my opinion this only proves that she is looking for any reason to complain, and make me look bad so I send back her chams.



<center><A >
<IMG SRC="http://www.angelfire.com/vt2/c.c-chameleons/SnoutSideview.jpg " BORDER="0" WIDTH="375" HEIGHT="300" </A.></center>


<center>THIS IS THE CHAM SHE IS COMPLAINING ABOUT.HE IS ONLY 5 MONTHS OLD. HE IS SHOWING SOME GREAT COLORS, CONSIDERING HE IS SO YOUNG. THIS IS A PIC THAT WAS TAKEN WITH THE CHAM IN HER CARE</center>

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

If you took pictures of the animal just before you sent it then post them on here so everyone may see them and get more information on the Rostral.  If the pics you took do not show the rub, have dates on them from when they were taken and they are good pictures showing the Rostral then you might be able to proove your idea.

 

[Casey Hulse]

Seems like if you sent pictures to other breeders, maybe you aren't sure. Maybe you can post the names and/or e-mails from them to back your claims.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">After going back and forth with her,for about a week. And after her threats of posting about me here, her last words were "WHAT DO I HAVE TO DO TO GET MY CHAMS BACK" In my opinion this only proves that she is looking for any reason to complain, and make me look bad so I send back her chams</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

In my opinion, it proves that she is not happy with the deal and she wants her panthers back.

Reading her e-mails, it is obvious that she has not been happy with the trade from the very begining.

It looks like the picture you posted shows the damage in question

 

[Seamus Haley]

Regardless of the debate as to it happening in Your care, Shipping or her care during those seven days... This is a potential health issue.

It might come off with the next shed and it might not be a signifigant problem. But even if it does not end up being an issue, it is a potential issue and some extra work that she did not request or understand would be inherent prior to purchase.

Physical deformities of any nature, including scar tissue that were not represented as existing at the time of sale with a clear understanding that they existed fall underneath "health guarantees" as they all represent potential  problems if not immediate. When issueing a health guarantee you offer more than simply live delivery or "free from anything that would kill it within seven days". You offer a guarantee that the reccipient will be satisfied with the health (including superficial skin problems) for the duration of time specified. If the problem is reported in that time frame but shipping the animal back can not be accomplished, it still must be held true. The guarantee date when mail ordering is the  amount of time needed to contact the seller about problems.

Further, if you state that it obtained this problem during shipping, it is still your responsibility.  That animal was owned by you until such point as she accepted delivery. Since the shipping damage occurs before the animal is delivered, in transit, the responsibility is yours.

There can be no denial of responsibility because "it's not a problem" either. It is a problem as it can affect the animals health and, even if it's simple to avoid health complications, that's extra work and extra time and money invested to ensure it doesn't become a problem. Chams are display animals anyway- nobody buys those with even slight deformities or scars because it's a show animal and it's supposed to look good.

I concur with Rob's idea here... Show some of those pictures taken before it was shipped that can be called substantially similar enough to verify the same animal is in the picture and the responsibility may shift slightly although not much if the remainder of the facts given, that you did not argue against, are true.

Shipping costs seemed  to be an issue for both parties, sort of a deal breaker on the debate about who was to return what to who... Perhaps both parties involved should just eat the shipping costs and consider themselves a bit wiser through experience.

 

[Ken Harbart]

If I may...

This has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and is instead directed at some misinformation that was given to Julie.

1) The vet must have been telepathic if he knew the exact localities of the sire and dam, respectively. Far too much emphasis is placed on arbitrarily assigning localities to animals who's locality is unknown. This isn't true just for panthers, but for just about every "locality" animal. Trooper Walsh, Greg Maxwell, and Damon Salceies al authored excellent articles that dealt with the green tree python "locality debate".

2) As for sterility, the chameleon that you received isn't especially likely to be sterile. It's not a hybrid, nor even an integrade. It is merely a combination of two color phases/localities. It is much like breeding a Highway 277 greybanded kingsnake to a Christmas Mt. greybanded kingsnake. They are still genetically pure animals. Less desirable to those who are stuck on the concept of localities perhaps, but still genetically pure.

As I said, I'm speaking only of this tangent, and not the transaction itself.

 

[Pennebaker]

Ken--with all due respect, I do not know that your kingsnake/green tree python locality argument holds true with Chameleons.  We are talking about two different unrelated species.  While I am no panther chameleon expert (I do own a number of them) , and I have read several books/articles stating that different panthers should not be bred together, or could not be bred together and produce viable breedable offspring. Different localities of Ambanja, yes, but not, for example, Ambanja to Tamatave. True or not (I dont really know), it is common info out there.
Regardless, if it is sold as an ambanja panther, it should be an ambanja.  I know that even if it was breedable, I would not want to do so simply because it is a hybrid.  Many chameleon breeders and collectors have strict "rules" or "ethics" related to this topic.  Similar to if I was to buy a hypo boa, I would not want to find out that I had a hogg island x hypo.
I believe that Julie was not only told that this was likely a hybrid by the vet, but also by the person who sold Mike this chameleon.  
Also, a hybrid would not be worth as much as a pure ambanja.
Grounds for return either way.

Now Mike says that he cannot tell whether or not this happened in her care?  Um, she emailed and asked about the nose rub/black spots (not red fleshy ones) the day that she got the cham in (not a week later).  She informed him of her concern about it immediately.  So, it could not have happened in her care as the animal had just arrived and had not been "in her care" yet.  And once again, this area was black with healing tissue--not a red/fleshy fresh wound-- as many here seem to agree.
And we should remember, first it was blamed on shipping by Mike, and then he just claims that it is "not a flaw" just like a skinned knee, and now it might have happened while in her care???  lol!

I do not think this is a case of Julie shipping out her animals and changing her mind w/in 24 hours (nice to try to turn it around). This is a case of getting an animal in with a nose rub that she was not told about up front and then finding out the whole hybrid story.  She feels that she has been cheated and I would feel the same.

And for the fact that she saw a photo before and it was fine...well, I saw the add on kingsnake that was posted for this 'ambanja' panther (before Julie traded for it).  It was a nifty flash video sort of animation photo that switched around quickly from one shot to the next--quick enough so that close examination of a specific part (nose) would not be possible, but that the color was visable.  Nice way to cover any physical flaws and make it look gimicky and high tech.

I'm sorry that it does not seem that this guy is reasonable enough to offer a fair return/exchange.  I'm sorry that he has Julie's nice animals (unless he sold them already and that is why he wont return them, in which case, money might do the trick : )).  I'm also sorry that he feels that he is in the right, that scarred nose rub is not a flaw, and therefore giving him the right by his terms to do this to someone else.  A seven day guarantee is only for health, not for physical flaws.  So other people can expect to get tail nips, nose rubs, deformities, etc etc and that is not covered in his guarantee.

It seems that Julie has been working on this return/problem from day 1.  Look at the date when she posted on the discussion forum.  She has done a lot of research into this matter and it seems worse and worse the further she digs.

Once again, do the right thing and refund/return without sticking her with all of the shipping.  This looks pretty bad.

Dana

 

[chris allen]

i just want to add a little bit here.  i know mike, have dealt with mike, and have spoken to him on many occasions.  its ashame a tiny spot can cause such an issue.   im not a chameleon expert, as i deal mostly with dragons, but i have to point out that dealing with mike has been a pleasure.   and as we all know shipping is a risk that both the buyer and seller are taking.   offering a 7 day health guarantee is more than i would ever offer with my dragons(and not because i dont have great pride or confidence in my animals, but because of the stupidity and ignorance that is out there), and i think that was a great gesture of confidence on mike's part.   chris

 

[Casey Hulse]

I'm sure Mike is a great guy, with great animals, but without an equitable resolution to this issue it looks like he pulled a fast one on Julie. If Mike does not want to return Julies Chameleons, maybe he could pay the balance of the asking price (which is like $350 maybe) and Julie could return the one with the flaw to Mike..

 

[Wilson]

Chris,
I am still very new to keeping reptiles.  I bought my first snakes over the net and was given a 10 day garuntee.  The breeder i bought them from would have eaten the deal if something horrible had happened while they were being shipped.  Once again i am still very new to this, but i always thought the shipping was a risk the seller took.  I know i wouldnt do business with someone that says sorry but it got screwed up durring shipping so its both of our loss.  No,  its your loss(seller).  I also would not buy from a breeder that didnt offer at least a 7 day garuntee.  Is that not pretty standard?  

I hope the cham is ok.
Personally i (as the seller) would eat the shipping both ways to put out a good name for myself.  All the people you see on the BOI that are said to be great people get their reputations from going the extra mile and makin somebody happy when they didnt have to.  IMHO

Justin Wilson