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Mike (Chameleon Condo) - Went back on his word.

The cham was sold as an Ambanja, a pure animal, not a mutt.  As for the EXCUSE of knowing it was a hybrid, the seller should HAVE KNOWN, and passed on the information to the buyer, prior to the trade.   You cannot say she should have known from a picture.   As for a nose rub being insignificant, too me it would show poor housing and shipping practices, and would be a cause for concern.

Dave
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
You did see pictures of the animal before you traded him for it right? From the pictures I have seen it was pretty obvious in my opinion that it was a hybrid. So, you should not be holding that against him since he sent you pics.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Yes, he sent me a link to an ad he posted of the male on Kingsnake for sale, for me to view quick flashing pics of him instead of sending still pics directly to me via email.  Why he posted the quick flashing pics on Kingsnake of this male for sale after he had just made a trade with me with this male, and wouldn't send them directly to me, I haven't a clue.  I just acquired, at the beginning of this year, my 1st and only pair of Blue Ambanja's, which makes me fairly new to keeping Ambanja's other than what I have learned from others and the tons of research I have done on the care of, husbandry, breeding, etc. and I had no idea there even could be a hybrid.  Maybe if I had more experience in all the different phases, then I possibly could have distinguished that his male may have been a cross before trading.  When you 1st started fooling with panthers, were you able to distinguish a cross, without any help of someone pointing it out?

I did ask Mike what color phase this male Ambanja was, whereas, he replied in many words about him being a red phase.  If he has the experience dealing with panthers that he indicates or insinuates on his site, then he should have had a good idea that he was possibly not a pure Ambanja and this was not ever mentioned in the trade.  He may not have been aware of this, as he says, when he acquired him and other siblings to this male at 3 months of age but should of had a good idea he was not pure at the time he traded me, if he has the experience he insinuates he does.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
Second, you really have no way of knowing for sure if it is actually a hybrid.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

I am being told repeatedly by many many people who have experience with Ambanja's that he is a hybrid, including vets that have experience dealing with Ambanja's, that are saying he is not a pure Ambanja but a cross (hybrid).  Even as you have mentioned above yourself, "From the pictures I have seen it was pretty obvious in my opinion that it was a hybrid."

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
Also, if you were planning on using the animal for future breeding then why is the nose rub bothering you so much?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Evening if I am planning to use this male for future breeding, he is my pet first, in all ways, and will still be my pet beyond breeding.  I am very particular about flaws on high priced animals I acquired (yes, this is high priced to me) without being told up front, whether being used for breeding or as a pet or both.  With my being very particular about appearance, I would not have traded my Ambanja's for a less than perfect one (flaws, scars or whatever it may be).  Especially, when my animals that are being traded for, are flawless and are received in that manner.  Maybe not everyone is particular about the appearance of their animals, but I do happen to be one person that is (which I seem to see a lot of people are very particular, besides myself).  I don't think my being particular makes me in the wrong, having to pay all the shipping across the board, for being unhappy with the male being sent to me this way, as I was not told up front about the rostral rub, then lied to about it, saying it must have happened during shipping and now I am dealing with being told he is a hybrid by many many people.

I'm sorry, but not being represented in full, even when I asked about any problems, is misrepresentation to me, as I am sure it probably is, to alot of others also.

As far as Mike not being responsible for any of the shipping of the trade back, I do not agree, as many others do not agree as well.

Julie
 
Julie,
    You make a bunch of good points, but some of them are hard to agree with since I am not in your shoes, although I might if I were. The fact that he should have known it was a hybrid still doesn't make sense. A lot of people that deal strictly or mostly with CB panthers are not always sure about the pureness of certain locales themselves since they don''t see them in their "pure" form very often.......meaning WC. A lot of your bigger breeders that have been around for some time, like JIm, have seen tons of wild caught animals so for them it is easy to distinguish between a pure morph and a hybrid.
   Also, if it were me I would have asked for a couple more pictures of the animal (that weren't flashing) before I went on with the trade. Either way by Mike not responding back to you and making this right it is not giving him a good rep. Hopefully, everything will turn out ok for you and from now on I recommend you only deal with already respected breeders like Jim from ABR or at the very least request a bunch of pics of the animal you are getting. Good luck!
Paul
 
Whether it is blatant misrepresentation, trying to dump off a hybrid on someone just getting into panthers, or a plain mistake, a reversal of the trade should still be honored.  Since Mike made the "mistake" or did the taking advantage of, HE should pay the shipping.  
On top of that is the nose rub.  He did not tell her about it up front--bad move.  And then tries to take advantage of her again by telling her it happened during shipping or in her care.  We can see that this is not the case.  Whether the animal is breedable is not the issue--Once again I'll go back to the bearded dragon example...No one pays near full price for a bearded dragon with a nipped tail.  If I got sent a bearded dragon with a nipped tail without being told, I'd be irate.  Simply put, the animal is not worth as much money.  How much could Julie get for this animal if she decided to sell it?  Unless she pulled a quick one, not nearly as much as she traded for.
2 BIG "mistakes" in my book that really look like more of a scam than mistakes.  In either case, Mike made them (2 of them), Mike gives a FULL refund.
Dana
 
Paul,

Jim is the person that I dealt with for acquiring my 1st and only pair of Blue Ambanja's that Mike has now.  I went through Jim just for the reason that I was sure to get exactly what I was looking for and no ripoffs (in any way, shape or form) would be involved because the fact he is a respected breeder.

Needless to say, I trusted Mike, when he came to me for a trade in response to my posting my panthers on kingsnake for sale.  Trading was not what I was initially looking to do.  I wanted to sell them outright and I just should have stuck with that, instead of agreeing to the trade of his male plus cash that he came to me with.

Anyway, I responded to what you said about me in an earlier post, whereas, I should have known from the pics Mike sent me, that the male appears to be a hybrid.  This is why I brought that up about Mike possibly knowing this before hand, in which I was trying to say in so many words, that if anybody should have known he was possibly a hybrid between Mike and I, it would have to be Mike, not I, as I am fairly new to Ambanja panthers, but Mike insinuates he has lots of experience with them.  Therefore, Mike having more knowledge/experience with panthers and possibly the phases, to know a possible hybrid when he has or sees one.

If not, this is just a senario of what could have happened if Mike contacted other breeders about the coloring being different to the phases he is aware of, (if he is not that experienced as he insinuates) of this male and the others he acquired, as he seems to do with everything else, and that he may have been informed in one way or another that this male and the others he acquired were possible hybrids before selling/trading them.  For instance, I know if this were me, that if I had more experience with the phases, and the colors did not match any of the phases I was aware of, even maybe assuming on my behalf they were a rare color, I definitely would have contacted someone right away, who would definately know and be able to tell me whats what or if I am right about it being rare, so I would atleast have an idea as to what phase or the possiblity of the rareness.

You can be assured that I will only deal with repected breeders as I first did for my purchase, but was not aware I would have to do the same in a sale/trade.

I hope what I said above that could have possibly happened, was not too confusing.

Julie
 
Paul, first you said,</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You did see pictures of the animal before you traded him for it right? From the pictures I have seen it was pretty obvious in my opinion that it was a hybrid. So, you should not be holding that against him since he sent you pics.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'> so you are saying she should have known it was a hybrid, as the pictures made it obvious.  Then you said,</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The fact that he should have known it was a hybrid still doesn't make sense.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'> He had the actual animal and it's understandable that he didn't know it was a hybrid, but Julie shoud have known from a picture?  What gives here Paul?  It sounds to me like you are trying to confuse the situation.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But, personally I do not think Mike should be held responsible for any shipping on the trade back since the animal was not really misrepresented, although it may not have been represented in full.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>  Just what is the difference between "not represented in full" and misrepresented?   Just imagine, "I'm sorry, I neglected to tell you that the moniter has a large cancerous growth and worms pouring out of its mouth."  Is this misrepresentation, or "not represented in full"?</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A little nose rub in no way affects the health of the animal or any future breeding </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>  I'm sure a little cigarette burn scar on its side would also not affect its health in any way, but would you pay $300 - $350 dollars for it?</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and wether or not it is a hybrid should have been determined before you decided to trade.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>  Finally you say somethng I agree with.  It should have been determined before hand, by Mike.  A total reversal of the transaction is due and shipping should be paid by the one who perpetrated the scam, as I don't believe for a second that it was just a "mistake" that he didn't notice the nose rub.  Paul, are you some friend of Mike's, or does your cranium really intrude that far into your posterior?
 
You said...
"He had the actual animal and it's understandable that he didn't know it was a hybrid, but Julie shoud have known from a picture?  What gives here Paul?  It sounds to me like you are trying to confuse the situation."
I am not trying to confuse the situation. What I mean is that Mike may not have known it was a hybrid and Julie saw the animal before the trade and still went on with the trade. So, I don't think she has any reason to say that was a misrepsentation of the animal, just because she got opinions from another source as to the "pureness" of the locale.
You said.....
"Just what is the difference between "not represented in full" and misrepresented?   Just imagine, "I'm sorry, I neglected to tell you that the moniter has a large cancerous growth and worms pouring out of its mouth."  Is this misrepresentation, or "not represented in full"
That is a gross exageration of what actually happened. What I meant by misrepresented and not represented was the fact that Mike may have not told her of the nose rub, because to some people, myslef included, it wouldn't have mattered, especially since it is an old injury. If it was a fresh bloody wound then that would have been a different story. Not, that this excuses Mike for forgetting to mention the injury, but sometimes these things happen. But, this is why you give a guarantee and should live up to it if the person wants to return the animal.
You said.....
"I'm sure a little cigarette burn scar on its side would also not affect its health in any way, but would you pay $300 - $350 dollars for it?"
I have paid more than $350 for fresh wild caughts that were scarred much worse and were also very dehydrated and thin. But, what a person plans on doing with an animal and what THEY feel it's worth is, is up to them.
You said....
" Finally you say somethng I agree with.  It should have been determined before hand, by Mike.  A total reversal of the transaction is due and shipping should be paid by the one who perpetrated the scam, as I don't believe for a second that it was just a "mistake" that he didn't notice the nose rub.  Paul, are you some friend of Mike's, or does your cranium really intrude that far into your posterior?"
Mike shipped a healthy animal (maybe not perfect) and he might have truly believed this animal was a pure Ambanja. So, he did not misrepresent the animal in any way. So, that is why I feel that he does not HAVE to be responsible for the shipping costs on the trade back. If he had said "If in any way you are unhappy with the animal, then I will give you a full refund." would have been a different story, but he just promised it to be in good health....which it was.Either way he gave Julie 7 days to make her mind up on whether she wanted to keep the trade as is or not and since she chose not to then he should make it right. And I guess my cranium really does intrude that far into my posterior.......since I have gotten into a few discussions/arguments with Mike in the past on other public forums in regards to his animals and a product he sells. I feel he HAS done wrong in this trade, but I was mearly giving another perspective on the situation. The purity of panther locales is a very bad topic since it is sometimes hard for some people to determine if an animal is a hybrid or not and to what extent. Also, many people, like myself, don't keep chameleons as pets, per say, so what one person may consider a "bad" scar another might not think twice about if the animal was to be used as a breeder.
 
On a list that this post was broadcast to one of the people that replied stated "this is what you can expect from doing business online". That is the problem with people that won't satisfy their customers. It makes it hard for all of us.

If a dragon has a tail nip, a panther has a scar or nose rub or a snake has a defect you let your potential customer know about it. Saves you a head ache down the road and makes it easier for your customer to make an honest decision. Paul is right in that most people would just blow it off as no big deal ... if they knew about it before hand. When you open the box is not the time to find out because then you start second guessing and looking for other things (locale issue).

Mistakes happen. As a business person you own up to them, suck up the consequences and take care of your customer. The issue I had is Mike making excuses for the nose rub which was obviously not new and trying to blame his customer.

As Loren brought up earlier in the thread. Was the shipping costs worth the headache this transaction has cost him? As this post was broadcast on this board and at least 2 chameleon lists that I belong to, I would highly doubt it. Far easier to give Julie a little extra towards hers or return the animals and just recoup your loss on the next deal (this is how successful business people do it in every other industry why should we be different as herpers).
 
It is sad when a situation like this happens and the person basically gets away with it. Dan is absolutely right when he says that customer service is a must in this business. We all know that there are a lot of people out there simply looking to start trouble but this specific case is not one. I can't shake my amazement when I see that Mike, someone that claims to be a specialist in Nosy Be and Ambanja panthers in his website, lures Julie into a trade to unload a crossed Panther with a nose rub. Then he tries to tell her that it happened during shipment.
Mike, if you would have come clean and mentioned the nose rub and mentioned also the possibility that this animal was not pure Ambanja, and Julie still wanted the trade then you had all your bases covered. However you did not mention any of the above. You did not notice a nose rub? Really? Are you sure? Then, you need glasses. You did not know the panther was a cross? Are you sure? Didn't you find it unusual that he did not look like your other Ambanja panthers? Aren't you a good breeder of Nosy be and Ambanja panthers? I don't really want to imagine what the answers to these questions are.

I do not think that the panther being a cross is a "flaw" and I agree that the nose rub is not a "life threatening health hazard" but the problem here is that you lied and then coverd your butt lying some more. The panther chameleon you sent Julie is very colorful indeed but she wanted an Ambanja, which is what you offered her, not a cross animal. She also wanted an animal that was in the same condition as the pair she sent you. Did her animals arrive with nose rub? Were they a cross?

It is very possible that you might get away with this one Mike, and it is very possible all this gets forgotten in the general public's mind after a while but there are many breeders and reputable people in this forum that will know not to give a good reference about your business to their clients. You see, all this could have been avoided if you returned the animals like you said you would if Julie paid for shipping all across the board or even better, if you would have not been cheap and paid her in full what she wanted for the pair instead of pulling this trade/apparent scam but now you will experience first hand what it is to have something haunt you for a very long time. In 2 words this can be summarized like the Pennebakers said, "business suicide".
 
Well, it doesn't look like Mike plans on doing the right thing here and probably never planned to from the beginning, when I let him know I was not happy with the males rostral rub and he said he would reverse the trade.  Then to find out the traded male I received is a hybrid on top of all of this.  The only thing I can say is "BUYER BEWARE" and I hope my horrible lesson learned here sticks fresh in everyones mind for a long time.

It seems that there are/were more mutts on the market being sold as Ambanja's, which you will notice or may have noticed in the wording of the ad or ads that I have come across or you have come across.  One in particular stood out, that said, the chameleon is "predominantly and mostly Ambanja but may have Sambava or Tamatave characteristics because of the red color", leaving the door open to the possibility that it very well could be a cross, so be careful everyone.  This may be okay, in their (the sellers/traders) assumption, for pet purposes, but not when they are unloaded on unsuspecting people, as myself, that intend to breed pure Ambanja's, even when making the seller/trader well aware of this animals intended purpose other than your basic pet status.

Anyway, caution has been thrown into the wind here, so be very careful with whom you deal with or purchase from in the future.  I would also like to thank everyone for their help and replies in reference to this matter, "Thank You".

Julie
 
I guess the situation has not changed. It is sad that he is still not making this situation better for Julie.  I noticed another one of his ads for a Panther (probably a sibling to the animal julie received) link to ad
 
Mike had emailed me after my last post to thank me for defending him, which I was not trying to do (however it may have sounded). I then emailed him back explaining that I wasn't defending him, but more so the situation and told him that he should do right by her. ......I have yet to hear back from him.....Mike you out there?<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>?
Paul LaFaver
 
I would have been really surprised if Mike did the right thing. Julie's Ambanjas are probably in somebody else's collection by now and hopefully in good health. It is really sad to see a situation like this go unsolved especially when all the evidence is on the table. I guess we will see Mike around next time somebody displeases him. Hopefully he is more honest with his "chameleon condos" than what he is with his chameleon sales/trades.
 
Hello everyone,

At this point and time, nothing, in any way, shape, or form, has been done to make good or do the right thing in this matter nor do I expect it at this point either.  All I can say is what comes around, goes around eventually.  He obviously does not care enough about his name or his word, here in the herp world, which should say alot about him and his business ethics.  I just hope everyone remembers my ordeal with him before even thinking about doing business with him in the future.  Ivan, I also hope he is more honest about his condo's than he is with his chams.  Rob, the pictured link does look just like the male I received from him colorwise and all, making me believe that he is the sibling that Mike mentioned to me that he had and was trying to sell at the time we made our trade, among being about the right age.  Note*****Notice the ad says "panther" not Ambanja this time.  I guess he knows now, if he was to put Ambanja after being made aware they are hybrids on this board for everyone to see, he would get reamed by several people...lol.  Atleast he has to do the right thing when advertising that cham for sale now.  The only thing I wonder about is what he may tell the unsuspecting person inquiring about the chameleon, on the phone or in an email, as far as its locale.  Mike will always be remembered and never forgotten by myself, when it comes to anyone inquiring about him, his animals, and/or his business ethics.  I will always refer them to this thread to let them decide for themselves if they want to purchase from him or do any kind of business with him (trades, etc).
 
Julie,

I have a feeling that he will lie and tell people he deals with incorrect things about you and this situation if they deal with him, just as he does about me & my business.  He has been slandering me in private since our deal.  I just hope that everyone will soon realize what he is doing and see the truth. Teh truth always does prevail, but sometimes it take longer than others.  I would definitely keep referring people to this thread and keep the thread alive when you can so it does not slip away into the nothing.
 
Rob,

I do not doubt what you say, will more than likely happen, about Mike lying to everyone about me and the situation to make it look as if I am just having seller's/trader's remorse.  All the info is in this thread here.  Hopefully, whomever may read this thread will not ignore my "BUYER/TRADE BEWARE" warning.  I do know, first hand, about him slandering you, as he had said things about you to me in our 1st phone conversation.  But rest assured, that went in one ear and out the other.  I am sure he will be doing the same about me, if he has not already started to.

Julie
 
Well, I am very sad to see that you got officially scammed Julie. I was looking at the kingsnake classifieds and I saw another ad from Mike, this time selling a 10 month old Nosy Be Panther. To my surprise, the chameleon in the picture DOES look like a Nosy Be. Maybe he does specialize in Nosy Be panthers only because he obviously is clueless about Ambanjas, LOL.
 
I'm also sorry that this never got resolved.
All I can say in situations like this is "what goes around, come around"-- rely on karma.  He's just built up some bad juju.  You have some good coming.  (I think I'm ready to try out for one of those new age psychic hotlines now, lol!!&#33<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>
Take care
Dana
 
Dana, I am definitely waiting for the come around.  It's funny you mention juju, that is what alot of my friends call me (nickname).  I am still waiting for the good thats coming though.

Julie
 
Every time I go on KS and see the Cham Condo banner at the top it makes me want to spit.(then I remember I am at home)  It is the same to me as if it was a Jesse Underhill banner.
 
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