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Mike (Chameleon Condo) - Went back on his word.

justin wilson, no that is not standard....well depending on the actual people you are dealing with.  some people ship, based on buyers risk. some will guarantee live arrival.  and then some will offer a health guarantee(but not many, if for any length of time). and most will post on their sites that they are not responsible for carrier mishaps. which as you said something terrible can happen during shipping, and sometimes it does.  both the buyer and seller are risking shipping, and that needs to be clearly stated what / if any guarantees take place, but there is no standard as for what is done.
 
Hi Julie!  I have to agree with you (and most others) on this one.  You got what was less than perfect on your end of the deal.  It really doesn't matter if it was there before it was shipped or happened in shipping, you did not get what you paid for. (Not to mention the fact that it could possibly be a mix and not a pure Ambanja&#33<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>  Come on Mike, swallow what pride you have and toss this up to a learning experience and do the right thing.  Bottom line, you (Mike) got exactly what you were supposed to, Julie got a less than perfect animal in return.  How is that right??
 To Dana....  Could'nt have said it better myself!

 PS> Julie, how's that stud of a dragon doing??  Their babies look great!!
 
Chris,
     Wow, this industry must be a lot broader than i have seen.  The reputable guys i know back their animals even after they are in the care of the new owner.  Im sure you have seen more in this hobby than i have.  So here is a question.  What stops a breeder from shipping an animal thats damaged and screamin it happened during transit and its not their fault?  Man that is scary.  I guess i just got really lucky that i got hooked up with a really good guy in terms of customer service in my first transaction.  Are you sayin that if i purchase a dragon fom you and a heavy box is dropped on it durring shipping paralyzing the back legs and tail, that im just outa luck???  Id say that would scare alot of potential customers away when they read that disclaimer.  It would me.

To each his own i guess.


Justin Wilson
 
What could i possibly add that my wife, Dana, has not covered in her previous posts on this conflict?
Just one thing: Why do so many people sacrifice the integrity of their business name instaed of eating crow? How many people have we watched demolish their business names over the petty details of conflicts(especially in the last 6 months)?
I won't pretend to be one that is beyond arguing for the sake of my ego, but to do so at the expense of one's business reputaion seem foolish to say the least.

None of us are beyond mistakes or momentary lapses of reason. I put myself in Julie's shoes and i put myself in Mike's shoes. I think about what i would do if i were in mike's shoes and the answer is simple: MAKE THE CUSTOMER HAPPY!

God knows this can be a difficult proposition with all the fruitcakes out there, but each of us (with a business) have our business names to protect. Even if the customer is being unreasonable, irrational or just plain wrong, IMO the best course of action usually is to make concesions. Try to correct your error (if there is one). Don't let one day's bad-mood affect the state of your business for months or years to come.
Why be a hard-a$$ over measly shipping costs?

Regardless of whether Mike is justified in his protestations, he could have diffused the whole situation and avoided bad publicity had he simply paid for some of the shipping. It's just 30-40 more dollars out of his pocket! Isn't that worth avoiding all this publicity? What possesses someone to sacrifice the integrity of their business name for under $100-worth of shipping?!? Ego? Greed? Stubborness? Or just plain stupidity and bad business sense?

Not like this is a isolated occurance. How many people have we seen rip each other's business names to shreds over some relatively petty conflict? And then never stop! Droning on-and-on! Bantering back-and-forth as to who is worse person and who's more at-fault. It's ridiculous! And often, it sheer business-suicide.

Bottom-line: Everyone has an obligation to their businesses' well-being. Why take the route of conflict when a simple gesture, some understanding, some empathy, some compassion or just a couple measly bucks will make the problem go away?

loren
 
Well, I was sitting here for about 2 hrs again after starting this thread, coming back with all the things I was quoting from Mike's post and responses to them and in the midst of doing so I hit the X on the window at the top of my reply instead of on the emails I was going through where he said and I said and I wound up exiting my reply.  Needless to say, it is now gone.  But I will say for now,  Mike you know alot of what you are saying about the situation is bull and as far as what your opinion is, it is just that, your opinion and will be very hard to prove as it is not true.

Mike, I did ask you on the phone when you were speaking about the trade what phase he was and you hesitantly replied you purchased him as a red phase, but when looking at him one minute he was of red coloring and the next time you would look at him, he took on more of a blue coloring.  Does this say I was not interested in his phase?  I don't think so.  Also, I did ask you to send me a pic of him and I 1st received the payment and then much later that evening you send me a link to a flashing bunch of pics to an ad on kingsnake that you said was the male, whereas I study those flashing pics for a good while over and over again looking for any flaws.  Now, if I would have seen any flaws or if you would have mentioned any to me, I would have immediately refunded you your money, and canceled our deal, as I am sure most everyone else would have done so in the same situation.  I also took it another step further, asking you the question about MBD, etc? among several other questions, whereas you could not be clear on the names of who this male originated from.  I wonder why that was?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
"WHAT DO I HAVE TO DO TO GET MY CHAMS BACK" In my opinion this only proves that she is looking for any reason to complain, and make me look bad so I send back her chams.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Mike, I did not come to you with the trade, nor was I your customer.  You came to me and what I received was less than what I expected (a male that was flawed, which from the beginning did not look like a fresh rub to me and others that have viewed these same pics and more, seem to agree it is not fresh from shipping).  For you to even suggest that this happen in my care is a crock.  I notified you within atleast 30 mins of his arrival and mentioned his nose, asking you whats up with his nose, in which I sent you the pics of the same day asking more questions like did you know how this happened, etc.

Even when you mentioned that you thought it may be old shed that needed to come off.  That you already had a chameleon this happened to. Brought it to the vet, whereas he gave you some cream and it did finally come off in about a week, then more like 4-5 days.  I was fair about it and did what you suggested (in which I was truely hoping that would do the trick) after saying via phone that the 7 day guarantee included my satisfaction and if there was no change and I was not happy, to contact you and you would reverse the deal.    This is far from my trying to find things to complain about and make you look bad so you will send my chams back.  You are doing and have done a good job of it yourself.  And, yes, I am calling you a liar and a cheat, but only after you went back on your word and now that your 7 day guarantee does not include my satisfaction as it first did.

Yes, of course, anybody in their right mind would want their chameleons back after such a trade as I had with you (flawed male, hybrid and all).  I haven't heard you offer anything different than myself being stuck with your male or paying all the shipping across the board to get mine back and sending yours back, which is not an offer.  Thats a demand from you, for me to get my chams back.  I didn't hear you say, for instance, well, what if I trade the other male sibling out for him?  But that wouldn't work now, since I understand the male is a hybrid.  Or like Casey suggested, send $350 and I return the male.  But then again, if you were to do that, this would only just prove you wrong though on your theory, "that I just decided I want my chams back (seller's remorse)", right?  So I would have to say, that is out of the question for you.

This one is to Chris,

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
offering a 7 day health guarantee is more than i would ever offer with my dragons(and not because i dont have great pride or confidence in my animals, but because of the stupidity and ignorance that is out there), and i think that was a great gesture of confidence on mike's part.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

This is not a stupid or ignorant situation nor am I a stupid or ignorant person so I hope that did apply to me.  I took great pride in my chams and upon trading them I expected the male in the same condition.  You will rarely, and I will not say never, find someone to buy a cham with a flaw like that.  As far as Mike giving the 7 day guarantee, it was mostly because that is what I thought I remembered him saying on the phone while speaking of the trade when I asked about it in my email.  Mike's response goes like this, "We offer a 72 HR guarantee on all our chams. This guy is in perfect health. I will give you a 7 day guarantee. Will you give me the same."  In which I replied "that a 7 day guarantee was fine".  Pretty nice of me too, wouldn't you think?  But, ask me if I would have said "No", I will only give you 72 hrs, if Mike's 7 day guarantee would have stood.  I don't think so, as his 7 day guarantee now, does not include my satisfaction as it first did.


To Bob,

That stud is doing great, thank you!  Yes, I was surprised.  They did throw some nice babies together.  But then again, I shouldn't have been suprised knowing my females capability of nice babies and only to pair her up with your male knowing his background.  I do have to say, they seem to be meant for each other.  Thank you again Bob.

Well, this is all for now.  It's late and I gotta hit the sack. <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>

Julie
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
This is not a stupid or ignorant situation nor am I a stupid or ignorant person so I hope that did apply to me.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>


[/B]Ooops, that should say, so I hope that didn't apply to me.


Julie
 
julie, no i did not call you stupid or even make that comment towards anyone in the situation.  i have never talked to you or dealt with you.  just saying how(you know as well), that there are many careless buyers out there, as there are also sellers(referring to his offer of a 7 day guarantee).   and JUSTIN, i did not say that if i ship a dragon and it arrives there poor, that i will not make good(regardless of whos fault, because i have my own business ethics that i go by).  just stating what different people/businesses do.  that is just a tip to find out exactly what you are in for before purchasing because everyone works differently.
 
loren and dana,
i think you guys are great, and i agree with a lot of what you posted above.  just ashame a lot of people arent like that.  in fact i rarely read this forum right here, because i have seen so much bull it seems that i have no clue what is credible or not.  just my nice post for you. lol. chris
 
Dana, no disrespect taken. One key thing to consider is that an Ambanja bred to a Tamatave produces neither hybrids nor integrades- they are simply "generic" panther chameleons. The offspring are still a genetically pure species, but are definitely not as desirable or valuable to the discerning hobbyist.

Touching on the sterility issue for a moment, much misinformation continues to make it to print, especially if the material is published by TFH. To accept the argument that two localities produce sterile offspring when bred together, we would have to assume that they are not both panther chameleons, since this would contradict one of the defining characteristics of species. Also, there's been many people that have produced reprodictively viable offspring of combined localities.

As for the vet, my criticism lies in that he made a statement as to the localities of the sire & dam. That this particular animal is "generic" is believable, but that he discerned the localities of the individual parents is about as probable as him throwing darts at a map of Madagascar.

On to the topic of morals & ethics, I don't necessarily feel that most people are being dishonest with their representation of localities. It is just something that perpetuates itself with any animal. Many individuals, based on appearence alone, will assign a locality to an animal who's origin is unknown. It's along the lines of a dealer saying, " it
looks like a red Ambanja, therefore it is one". This doesn't necessarily hold true.

Regardless of the above tangent, I agree with you that restitution is due to Julie. She, in good faith, believed that she was to be receiving a red Ambanja, and it was later discovered that the animal wasn't. Whether or not it was intentionally misrepresented by Mike, I'm not prepared to say. It is quite likely that the chameleon was represented to him as a red Ambanja when he acquired it.
 
Chris,

You wrote concerning those who sell herps on the net, that

"most will post on their sites that they are not responsible for carrier mishaps."

Well, firstly, I don't think it is true that MOST sellers post this anywhere on their sites, or that MOST sellers even have this as a general policy, posted or not.  I don't recall ever having seen such posted on a site, and I think I would remember them doing so, because it strikes me as a completely ridiculous policy to have.  In fact, I would like to see a link posted to a website that does say this directly.

Secondly, I know you said that this is not your policy, so I am not directing this at you, but anyone who thinks he can sell animals to people, have the shipper kill the animals in shipment, and then expect to keep the money because he wasn't responsible is dillusional, in my opinion!  It may work once or twice, but eventully, someone will go to the authorites and that person will have an investigation into their operation.  Even if that finds nothing criminal, the reputational damage alone would put such a person out of business very quickly, I would think.

The fact is that people spend money for live, healthy, honestly represented animals, and if that is not what is delivered, FOR WHATEVER REASON, the shipper has the responsibility to make things right up to, and including, a full refund of all money lost to the seller.  Anything less, would be dishonest, unethical, and business suicide, in my veiw.
 
I have seen a couple of sellers that do not guarantee live delivery on "door to door" service, but only guarantee live delivery when using an airline.
 
darin, maybe i was incorrect for using the word most, lol. but just looking through some links that i have of breeders, i found it on a couple sites right away.  i wont post links to whom im talking about just for the sake of not bringing someone else into the discussion that shouldnt be.  you can see exactly that/or variations of that posted on sites or directly in ads on kingsnake.  everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and as i stated, as a buyer you have to know what the businesses opinions and policies are before purchasing.  that was the whole jist of what i said, just for the sake of trying to point people in the right direction when purchasing.
 
Casey,

I have seen that too, but in those instances it has been my experience that the shipper always gives the buyer the choice of going the guaranteed route or not.  I just can't imagine someone being in the business of shipping animals, but not having a guarantee of live arrival.  Maybe I'M the one living in a dream world here, but I cannot fathom how someone with such a ridiculous policy could stay in business.

<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>
 
Darin. I agree. Shipping an animal and expecting the buyer to suffer any loss in transit is crazy. It has happened to me, and I would never deal with that person again.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">God knows this can be a difficult proposition with all the fruitcakes out there, but each of us (with a business) have our business names to protect. Even if the customer is being unreasonable, irrational or just plain wrong, IMO the best course of action usually is to make concesions. Try to correct your error (if there is one). Don't let one day's bad-mood affect the state of your business for months or years to come.
Why be a hard-a$$ over measly shipping costs?
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I agree 100% with Loren. If you have a good reputation, why let it dissapear through inaction. On the other hand, if your reputation is not important......???
 
Wow. What a raw deal.  I for one would never do business with Mike after this.  I'm not a cham person myself.  My forte is with BDs.  If I sent two sub adult leucistics to Kevin Dunne, expecting an adult male leucistic in return, and received a snow with an underbite or gimpy leg, and he refused to make things right, you can bet your a$$ I would never do business with him again.  I would also never stop tellng people about how I got screwed.  I've used Kevin as an example before, it is because he is one of the, no, he is the best person to do business with in the whole herp world.  Even someone with a reputation like his, if I found out that they blatantly screwed someone over like this, would lose my respect entirely.  All it takes is once.  Even if a thousand people posted saying that they had a good experience with Mike, if anyone ever asks me, Mike is the guy who intentionally ripped off someone, and is not trustworthy.
 
I don't understand why business owners do not do everything in their power to make things right with their customers. As a customer, I would PREFER to buy from someone who has made a mistake here and there, and then went on to make it right. We are all human and make mistakes... It is the response to those mistakes that I look at.

It seems to me that if a business owner does everything they can to make a bad situation good, even if they end up losing money on the deal, then they deserve my business in the future. I have found that it is worth it to lose some money here and there in order to do the right thing, because in the long run you will end up making that money (and more) back from a good reputation.

I will never understand why some people don't get this basic business practice. A good name is worth far more than a few dollars.

denise alexander
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">FaunaClassifieds welcomes our newest member Donna making a total of 2542 registered members</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Wow. Talk about power advertising. 2542 peeps, each with 2 friends that keep herps = 7626 potential customers with access to this thread. Thanx Rich!!

Mike? Hello?....
 
Hi Julie, Is that your panther you traded being sold on Kingsnake right now? If so, I would email Kingsnake right away and make a complaint and have the ad deleted till the situation is resolved. Go over the terms and complaint section on that site because I think you may be able to work with it. I wouldn't have traded an adult breeder panther for a subadult. It was worth double the price of the subadult for the simple fact that the breeder was of an age to breed and proven, whereas the subadult's future is uncertain as he has not been proven and his background sounds unreliable. Imo, the wounds don't look new and I'd assume possibly not treated to prevent bacteria seeing he never even noticed them and they were there upon arrival. There's also the possibility there's going to be white scarring there when they eventually fall off as well as his being minus the tip of his nose. I'd start putting a triple antibiotic or sulfadine on it to help him while in your possession regardless of whether you keep him. Scabs and scars are hard to shed. I've been on the Chameleon Journals list for approx 3-4yrs and there are a great deal of very knowledgeable cham people there who both study in the field as well as longterm breeders and vets. We have had many discussions on localities and interbreeding them and the majority have come to the conclusion that it is undesireable because it muddy's the color to brown after several generations as well as there have been some members who've experienced infertile clutches. Many of them are called rainbows and are less expensive because of the inferior mixing instead of holding true to keeping the coloring and locals seperate. Even breeding red ambanja to blue ambanja is undesireable. A reputable breeder just won't do it. If you bred all the colors and localities together the future would be full of dull chameleon's and they lose their individuality as a color morph. It might not mean a whole lot to someone interested in a pet quality chameleon but it would have an impact on someone concerning breeding quality. Maybe he was careless about not asking info when purchased or didn't care or just inexperienced concerning chams to have sold a mix unwittingly. But there's no mistaking the guarantees given, and part of health is skin condition. Julie, you seemed very thorough in your questions and your latter responses were profession and not offensive or provoking! I think your only problem was ignoring that uncomfortable feeling you displayed in your letters about not really wanting to trade in the first place, and you should have gone by your gut instinct and taken it as a warning. If it doesn't feel right don't do it. Hopefully we'll see a near future email from him stating..Yea..I've had time to cool off and think it out clearly and realize I was mistaken and will honor our agreement. Maybe each paying your own shipping will make it not as much of a loss on both sides. Good luck! Gina <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>
 
I would like to thank everyone for posting their own decisions so far, as to what each of you think and all of the support you have given me in this situation.  I would also like to thank Gina for giving much detailed information on alot of things that were discussed here by numerous fellow herpers in reference to what locale crossing can do as far as coloring and such down the line, sterility of clutches down the line, and the skin as being part of the chameleons health and such.  However, Gina is right, that I should have listened to my gut instinct from the beginning, which I usually do, and I did indeed ignore but will not do so again in the future.  Yes, Gina, I do believe there is a very good chance that Mike is trying to sell my male on kingsnake http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=52&de=4737
and I will take your suggestion and try to stop his posting.  At 1st look, of the ad, I wasn't positive, but as I keep looking at the ad it does look more and more like my male that Mike has posted for sale.  Compare my pics to the ad link above for yourselves http://ourworld.cs.com/crittersnreps/BAPCBreeders.html  

Needless, to say, I still have had no response from Mike about making anything right on this matter.  Maybe Mike is stalling because there is a possibility that my female is now showing to be gravid since I had my pair together before I sold/traded them and he wants to wait till she lays her eggs before doing the right thing?  Or another possibility could be that he introduced my female to his identical male (the one thats identical to my male) upon receipt instead of quaranteening mine and she is now gravid and he has decided not to hang onto my male and is trying to sell him now to make a few bucks?  I really can't say for sure but if that is my male in the ad, this just shows he has no intentions of ever making this right.

Julie
 
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