Info Mike McGrath BAD BUYER

[SmokyMtnReptiles]

Hello everyone, I recently had an Albino Burmese python for sale.
This girl was HIGH white and really tame. I really liked her but my well ran dry and I needed funds so I listed her. Believe me if I had the money she wouldnt have went any where but...
I had many inquiries about her but, no money for a week. Now I consider this normal in this business and Im sure this happens to everyone.
I had 4 different guys that sounded like they were going to take her and then the next day questions all over again..again No problem thats the norm.
I told everyone interested that the FIRST money that I get gets her. it has ALWAYS stated on my website under terms "Nothing is considered Sold Until Money Is Recieved" just for this sort of thing.
She sells I get PayPal notification and remove her from the forums.
the day she sells at 1am I get an email from PayPal saying I had another payment from someone else...I instantly email Mike McGrath ([email protected]) and tell him sorry but he was too late she had already sold. I asked him if he would like me to refund his payment or if he might be interested in some other snakes.
2 Days later he replies...and you can read ALL the emails from here. emails from me will be "red"

Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 19:44:03 -0700
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Albino Burmese

Hello Mike, This girl is perfect in EVERY way my well just ran dry and I have NO water so she must go at this time. I fed her last night she is Super tame and awesome


-------Original Message-------

From: Mike McGrath
Date: 9/22/2008 10:13:18 PM
To: Kevin
Subject: RE: Albino Burmese

Kevin quote me a shipping price to 62903 + 175 and ill take her >Mike


Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 01:26:16 -0700
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Albino Burmese

From my zip 37876 to you 5 lbs. In a 9x9x10 box by 10:30am FedEx quoted me $64.43 I can ship her tomorrow or hold her until your ready

My paypal address is [email protected] Thank You.....Kevin DeBusk


From: Mike McGrath
Date: 09/24/08 00:43:36
To: Kevin
Subject: RE: Albino Burmese

Kevin looking at your ad i will take the 07 burmese also. will this change shipping. Please check and I will paypal tonite when I get home from work. Also delivery will have to wait until the beginning part of next week ok. Mike


Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 01:07:36 -0700
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Albino Burmese

Mike, the shipping charges wont change...but I cant hold them unless payment is made...I will hold them as long as you would like for shipping


THEN HE SENDS PAYMENT I RESPOND RIGHT AWAY:

Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 03:38:36 -0400
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Albino Burmese

Hello Mike, As I stated in my last email I couldn't hold this girl before payment was made..and that was ONLY because I needed to buy a well pump to fix my water situation...well someone beat you with the funds and she sold this morning 9/24. This happened to me once before and I just refunded the payment and the person was mad because I had others they were interested in and they didn't have access to the funds until they went BACK into their bank account...that being said...I still do have the possible double het available and I have MANY ball pythons I would make you a KILLER deal if you were interested
As an example: on this page > http://smokymountainreptiles.com/index_002.htm going from top down snakes 3 4 6 8 $50 each the poss dh $40 I also have some babies hatched here this season females $35 each
Its not a problem if you don't want any I will simply return your payment..I'm sorry she sold before you sent payment... Two weeks without water was the only reason I couldn't hold her I hope you understand.


From: Mike McGrath
Date: 9/27/2008 1:23:22 AM
To: Kevin
Subject: RE: Albino Burmese

Kevin I am not interested in any other snakes. Just return the payment. I told you I wanted her and the only reason I didnt send the funds was to check if it would be additional for the other snake. This disappoints me and i feel bad business. We will not do business aagain in the future. I passed on another snakes because of this and she has since been sold


Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 01:31:16 -0400
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Albino Burmese

I'm sorry you feel this way...I told you the reason I was selling her and I told you I would not hold her unless I had the funds in advance...your payment has been returned...


From: Mike McGrath
Date: 9/27/2008 1:58:56 AM
To: Kevin
Subject: RE: Albino Burmese

Kevin common decency would have told you to contact me before selling to another person since I was first. I actually thought I was helping you by taking the additional snake off your hands but a good deed and I got screwed. I already have a proven burm het. Im not sure if this is how you do business but its not good. I am going to take it to the BOI and see if maybe I am wrong in this situation but I don't think so.


Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 02:12:07 -0400
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Albino Burmese

Welp, I had about 40 different people inquiring about her for the week she was listed I told everyone the same thing and as it ststes on my website under terms NOTHING IS CONSIDERED SOLD UNTIL MONEY IS RECIEVED I think you were just trying to buy a couple more days since you didn't add the funds for the normal anyway good luck


AND HIS LAST RESPONCE:

Dude I don't buy a couple of days. I buy then. Check my reputation. It speaks for itself. Ask around but I will make it a point to forward your reputation and the details of it to as many people as I can. You did a shady deal. That thing about the well and having to sell her because of no water. Like you couldn't go to the store and purchase some in gallons. They do sell it that way you know. IM done here so don't bother to explain yourself anymore. I don't belive a word you say.

As you can see nothing but a headache....Kevin DeBusk

 

[SmokyMtnReptiles]

and ANYONE that has well water will like his comment :

"That thing about the well and having to sell her because of no water. Like you couldn't go to the store and purchase some in gallons."

it takes almost 3 gallons everytime you flush the toilet that adds up quick buying it from the store believe me.

I understand he got mad but really I did what I felt I needed to. and under the same circumstances I believe anyone would have done the same...if you dont think you would have...see how long you can go without turning the water on.

and an update on the well : I have guys coming here in the morning to replace the pipe... I hope this fixes it.

 

[Laura Fopiano]

From: Mike McGrath
Date: 9/27/2008 1:58:56 AM
To: Kevin
Subject: RE: Albino Burmese

Kevin common decency would have told you to contact me before selling to another person since I was first. I actually thought I was helping you by taking the additional snake off your hands but a good deed and I got screwed. I already have a proven burm het. Im not sure if this is how you do business but its not good. I am going to take it to the BOI and see if maybe I am wrong in this situation but I don't think so.

Hmmmm, so let me get this straight Mike, you were trying to do a good deed??? Looks to me like you're angry because someone beat you to it.

Kevin, do you have the add and the info saved? Maybe a screen shot of it?

 

[LBenton]

I can not say I know either person involved but it sounds like Mike was trying to expand the deal to include more animals when he was beat out on payment by the other party.

Now this does not really make him a bad buyer, just an upset customer. I understand that a situation can come up that you will not be able to make everybody happy, but I can not say that feel sorry for you because you got griped at.

Lance

 

[SmokyMtnReptiles]

I didnt save a copy of the ad, but here are a couple PIX so you can see how nice she is

 

[KNOBTAIL]

Kevin, you may want to consider

when you offer an item for sale and payment is the criteria for consummating the deal,put a time limit when someone offers to pay.. This happens all the time. I understand the frustrations from both points of view.. I often have people telling me that they want to purchase the item in question. Once I find out they have a paypal account, I advise them that payment must be received by the days end. The other option would be to send them an invoice from paypal for the amount you are looking for and put a time limit on the response... But you are correct. The sale is contingent upon payment not the promise to pay !...

One other final note, I dont see why its necessary to explain why you are in need of funds when you offer an item for sale.. The reasons are not an integral part of the sale..

 

[norsmis]

I think Kevin was trying to make people understand the importance of why the first payment received would be the person who receives the animals listed. Kevin is in a time crunch and needs the money. We have all had buyers who say they want an animal and then take days to pay. In most cases I am patient with payments but I completely understand why Kevin did what he did. He made this quite clear from the beginning.

 

[MikeCurtin]

While I understand the problem with holding an animal without payment, and I agree that the animal should go to the first PAID buyer, I don't see where you told Mike you had other prospective buyers that already said they'd take her. I feel it's just common courtesy to let buyers know if other offers had been made, or if other payments were pending.

The problem(s) I see here are that you should have either told Mike you had another buyer that was sending payment, or told the other buyer you were waiting on Mike, and then set a very specific time frame within which to receive payment. If the buyer had sent funds without contacting you first, the snake should have gone to Mike because he inquired first, and from what I can see, was not unreasonably slow with payment.

I would blame this situation on a lack of communication and pro-active payment coordination by the seller.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I fail to see how the seller is at fault.

He specifically tells the probable buyer that he will not hold without payment via e-mail:

Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 01:07:36 -0700
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Albino Burmese

Mike, the shipping charges wont change...but I cant hold them unless payment is made...I will hold them as long as you would like for shipping

It is also stated on his web site in his Terms (in pretty big type too).

IMO, it's not a buyers business if you have other people interested in a particular animal. Fact of the matter is, until payment is made, those people are nothing but interested parties. Shoot, if I had to tell every probable buyer that their are other interested parties I would be saying it every time because their are a lot of window shoppers out there.

It's also pretty pathetic the buyer threatened a BOI post over the matter.

 

[MikeCurtin]

Mike tells Kevin he'll take her....definitely. This doesn't seem like a case of window shopping. Also, it doesn't appear (although I could be wrong) that Kevin deals in such high volume for it to unreasonable for him to notify Mike that she may already be sold. This deal went down in a matter of a couple days, and while it may not have been Kevin's responsibility to tell him that she may be sold already, it could have helped to avoid this. In the future, it may help for Kevin to set a time frame for payment.

I agree that it was unnecessary to threaten a BOI thread in response to this deal.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Mike tells Kevin he'll take her....definitely. This doesn't seem like a case of window shopping.

I've been told in the past week from 5 different people that they "definitely" want certain items I have for sale...Guess what? No money from any of those five people...Good thing I didn't hold my breath.

This deal went down in a matter of a couple days, and while it may not have been Kevin's responsibility to tell him that she may be sold already, it could have helped to avoid this.

No argument there, but to put blame on the seller for "lack of communication and pro-active payment coordination" I do not agree with.

In the future, it may help for Kevin to set a time frame for payment.

I agree. But that is Kevin's choice, nor ours.

 

[Ed Clark]

It does not matter how many people say they are gonna by that Burm, as we all know a very small percentage of online buyers will actually follow throught and make that payment to buy the snake.

The seller is under no obligation to tell interested parties how many people are actually interested in buying that snake.

The first payment to hit your paypal acct is the person that has bought the snake, any other payments that show up should recieve an instant refund with a brief note explaining they were too late.

People do threaten to post on the BOI in an effort to get their way....or try to.

I can't see how anyone can fault Kevin here.

 

[MikeCurtin]

I guess I just do things a little differently...the best way to put it is that I try to give seriously interested parties the first right of refusal. I can completely understand requiring funds to hold an animal, but I can also feel how Mike may have felt the animal was sold out from under him.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

And how would the seller

know if the buyer changed his mind.. This is a daily occurrence. Money talks , and promises walks ! Unless payment is made within a given time period, there is no sale based on non payment ! This business has to many graveyards with false purchase offers. So, the terms should be simple and direct:

The sale is contingent upon immediate payment unless some prior arrangements have been made. The time factor has to be taken into consideration as an intergal part of the transactions, so that the seller does not get strung out waiting to see how long its going to take to get paid from one customer without loosing a potentially a serious paying customer .

 

[hhmoore]

"If you want her, you'd better buy her quick - I have two other people trying to work out deals....."
That seems to be the type of comment some people are proposing - but, to my eyes, it comes across as a pressure sale...and is a stunt readily employed by less reputable types. I've gotten messages like that several times over the years, and my response has always been to simply delete them and look elsewhere.

It is not always easy to tell "serious inquiries" from the scores of window shoppers. The "definitely going to buy its" don't pan out significantly more often than the person that casually asks a couple questions. While I agree that the prospective buyer threw a temper tantrum, I don't know that I would label him as a bad buyer...but neither do I find the seller at fault. This thread seems to be more of a pre-emptive strike, based upon the buyer's mention of the BOI

 

[SmokyMtnReptiles]

Thank You ALL for the replies...I would have NEVER made this post had he not threatened to bring it to the BOI I just wanted to post everything I had before things got out of hand..again Thanks

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

"If you want her, you'd better buy her quick - I have two other people trying to work out deals....."
That seems to be the type of comment some people are proposing - but, to my eyes, it comes across as a pressure sale...and is a stunt readily employed by less reputable types. I've gotten messages like that several times over the years, and my response has always been to simply delete them and look elsewhere.

My thoughts as well. I wasn't sure how to word it, but your description makes sense.

While I agree that the prospective buyer threw a temper tantrum, I don't know that I would label him as a bad buyer...but neither do I find the seller at fault. This thread seems to be more of a pre-emptive strike, based upon the buyer's mention of the BOI

Well, on the bright side...
The thread prefix doesn't say "Bad Guy" but "Info."

 

[The BoidSmith]

Not so long we were in a similar situation with an individual that's considered a good guy in here. We agreed on the price and then we e-mailed him asking for shiping carrier and details. His next reply was "sorry it has been sold". This was very upsetting to say the least. Never did I reply to an ad from this person again. Money talks, yes but there's common courtesy also...

Best.

 

[hhmoore]

Not so long we were in a similar situation with an individual that's considered a good guy in here. We agreed on the price and then we e-mailed him asking for shiping carrier and details. His next reply was "sorry it has been sold". This was very upsetting to say the least. Never did I reply to an ad from this person again. Money talks, yes but there's common courtesy also...

Best.

I honestly have somewhat mixed feelings about this...As a buyer, I have had an offer accepted, and payment terms agreed upon (50% deposit via credit card over the phone, balance in cash when I picked up the animal). The seller said to call him, but neglected to provide me with a contact number...I emailed him requesting it, but didn't get a response (the number wasn't included in the ad). My last email was sent at approx 830pm. I did some searching online during the night, got his number, and called him around 10am the following morning - to be told that he didn't hear back from me so he sold it the previous evening. Was I unhappy? You're darn right I was.

On the other hand, as a seller, I have been told countless times that a person would purchase an animal & that payment was forthcoming. I have declined sales based upon pending payments, and been left holding the bag.

 

[The BoidSmith]

I honestly have somewhat mixed feelings about this...As a buyer, I have had an offer accepted, and payment terms agreed upon (50% deposit via credit card over the phone, balance in cash when I picked up the animal). The seller said to call him, but neglected to provide me with a contact number...I emailed him requesting it, but didn't get a response (the number wasn't included in the ad). My last email was sent at approx 830pm. I did some searching online during the night, got his number, and called him around 10am the following morning - to be told that he didn't hear back from me so he sold it the previous evening. Was I unhappy? You're darn right I was.

On the other hand, as a seller, I have been told countless times that a person would purchase an animal & that payment was forthcoming. I have declined sales based upon pending payments, and been left holding the bag.

I know, I know...It happens. As a buyer, and particularly if I was the first one to contact a person I would like the courtesy of them telling me "if you PayPal within the next hour it's yours". Then again it's also happened on countless ocassions that it is just a strategy to put pressure on the sale as you mentioned before. Then it's your prerrogative as a buyer to cave under such pressure or decide to go elsewhere with your money. In the example I was bringing upon we had agreed upon a price and we were addressing shipping when I was told it was sold. Not that it's good or bad, fact is that he was never up with a bad guy thread, I'm just stating he was erased from my prospective "to do business with" list . So that's why I'm not quick to judge Mike, he is upset because he probably knew he was serious about the purchase.

Best