Info Mike Udall, graystandman, Bad Buyer

[greystandman]

Oh, and Kevin, you just shot yourself in the foot! lol

 

[JudyC]

... I follow the Lacey Act and don't make it obvious that there is a snake in the box. ....

There's a lot I could ask about in your whole statement, but this is the most critical, in MY opinion.

How, exactly, do you "follow the Lacey Act" without labeling the box with the animal's scientific and common names?

Next time you get pulled over for speeding, try telling the officer, "I was just going 20 over. Everyone else does it, too. But I was following the speed limit!"

 

[greystandman]

Once again....I am the buyer here, NOT the shipper. When I did ship snakes I used the same store which know me very well. I followed the rules to a T. You ask Walter Smith, Joe Pierce, Graham Criglow, SMR, and many other prominent breeders and they will verify that I am a GOOD buyer that has never caused any problems. The SAME goes for being an even better seller. Only one of my customers has ever had a problem and I refunded him his money completely. The only other seller I've had a problem with is....well, I won't say because I have said enough already.

Mike

 

[JudyC]

Once again....I am the buyer here, NOT the shipper. When I did ship snakes I used the same store which know me very well. I followed the rules to a T. You ask Walter Smith, Joe Pierce, Graham Criglow, SMR, and many other prominent breeders and they will verify that I am a GOOD buyer that has never caused any problems. The SAME goes for being an even better seller. Only one of my customers has ever had a problem and I refunded him his money completely. The only other seller I've had a problem with is....well, I won't say because I have said enough already.

Mike

Said enough? Said a lot, maybe, but not a single answer to the question. I realize you didn't ship in this particular instance, but YOU are the one claiming that YOU are a "GOOD SHIPPER" who "FOLLOWS THE LACEY ACT".....and yet, you don't label your boxes according to FEDERAL LAW. (Nothing to do with FedEx policy!)

I am simply asking you to explain to me how you can "follow the act" without actually....well...you know....doing what it says?

 

[Alex G]

Not sure why you keep mentioning what time the store closed... it had nothing to do with why the snake was moved. Kyles post clearly stated that the rep at that location could not hold live animals past 5:30, whereas the other location could, and had it moved there for that reason. You aren't picking up a care package from granny, you're picking up a living, breathing thing.

 

[Piratepythons]

Hey Kevin Batchelor,

I'm not the one that shipped this snake here. Just because my way is different that your way does not make it wrong. I follow the Lacey Act and don't make it obvious that there is a snake in the box. And please tell me what I did wrong? If the store allows it's customers to pick up packages until 9pm and I come in at 6 pm, that means I am arriving 3 hours before the store closes. How am I too late? You may want to take your foot out of your own mouth. My policy remark is regarding the Fex-ex "POLICY" not federal law. Please read things through before attacking. And I admitted way before your post that he is a reptile certified shipper....again, read the entire post before posting. I was going by what the Fed-ex lady told me. I am not surprised she was wrong. And although I made a "threat" about going to the BOI, I never would have done it as this situation is not a big deal imo. I just wouldn't not used him again. Fact of the matter.....The true reason I had an issue was due to FEX EX having made a mistake...just as the store owner told me from the first store. It would have helped if said shipper would have made it less conspicuous that it was a live snake. This is MY opinion.

Whenever I have a snake shipped to me I have them hold it at my local fed-ex hub. This is because I live a kinda of rural area and I sometimes have issues with late delivery. I cannot speak for everyone but I dont want my new animals to spend any excess time in a shipping box. I am always at the hub the moment the doors open for business. And every time my packages are marked with the species of snake that is inside of it. I would never commit to a purchase if I knew that I was unable to come into work late or take off entirely. But I guess I just have a love for the animals. To leave your snake sitting on a counter all day in a box with no proper heat or water (I believe I read there was a heat pack but I dont consider this a proper heating method just a safety measure for shipping). And to be upset because Kyle contacted you several times because you had not responded to any of his confirmation emails shows once again that you really have no business in this hobby. I dont normally check my email every 30 mins, but when I am doing a transaction I check my email much more frequently. And to have a seller make such an effort to contact you, the buyer I am greatly impressed. You have shown everyone here that you should be avoided as a buyer and a seller. You have said in your post that you dont compley with the lacey act and therefore you ship your animals illegally. You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been judged by all that read this. Now you get to sleep in the bed you have made for yourself.

 

[greystandman]

9:00 is the latest you can pick up a box from the store we agreed on. The owner of the store the box was shipped to stated that he should of kept the box there for me to pick up but he wasn't sure if he was permitted to hold live animals. Fedex.com stated the store we agreed upon had the ability to received and hold packages and I had received 2 snakes from that store in the past so I thought nothing of it. You guys are analyzing this way too deep!! This was a FED EX ERRROR Alex!! The seller tried to contact me via email but I am not permitted to access email at work. He hadn't got my cell phone so he couldn't call or text me. These kinds of things happen!!

Judy, I DO label my boxes according to federal law!! I fill out the form truthfully and answer every question I am asked truthfully! I also used to ALWAYS put the stickers makred "LIVE HARMLESS REPTILES" or something to that nature on my boxes until I ran into fed ex employee's causing problems because they didn't know the corrrect procedure. I stopped doing it and things ran much more smoothly.

 

[greystandman]

Whenever I have a snake shipped to me I have them hold it at my local fed-ex hub. This is because I live a kinda of rural area and I sometimes have issues with late delivery. I cannot speak for everyone but I dont want my new animals to spend any excess time in a shipping box. I am always at the hub the moment the doors open for business. And every time my packages are marked with the species of snake that is inside of it. I would never commit to a purchase if I knew that I was unable to come into work late or take off entirely. But I guess I just have a love for the animals. To leave your snake sitting on a counter all day in a box with no proper heat or water (I believe I read there was a heat pack but I dont consider this a proper heating method just a safety measure for shipping). And to be upset because Kyle contacted you several times because you had not responded to any of his confirmation emails shows once again that you really have no business in this hobby. I dont normally check my email every 30 mins, but when I am doing a transaction I check my email much more frequently. And to have a seller make such an effort to contact you, the buyer I am greatly impressed. You have shown everyone here that you should be avoided as a buyer and a seller. You have said in your post that you dont compley with the lacey act and therefore you ship your animals illegally. You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been judged by all that read this. Now you get to sleep in the bed you have made for yourself.

Way too much judgement and assumption going on in the above post. You are blowing this WAY out of proportion. I would have loved to have checked my email but I could not. The seller never even got a phone number to contact me. You are obviously a Kevin fan. I've never said in my post that I don't comply with the Lacey act. And obviously most people here are Kevin fans and are backing him up. I do this as a hobby and because I love it, not to make money. Because I am not in the "BIG TIME" I do not have a fan base to get my back. I do have plenty of friends but they have no idea this post even exists. I'm off to work.

It's kind of funny Kevin, every time I log on to this site I see your name at the bottom which means you are constantly lurking at this post waiting to see who and how I am insulted.

 

[FireStorm]

Judy, I DO label my boxes according to federal law!! I fill out the form truthfully and answer every question I am asked truthfully! I also used to ALWAYS put the stickers makred "LIVE HARMLESS REPTILES" or something to that nature on my boxes until I ran into fed ex employee's causing problems because they didn't know the corrrect procedure. I stopped doing it and things ran much more smoothly.

How do you label your boxes according to federal law without putting "Live Harmless Reptiles", the common name, the scientific name, and the quantity? That makes no sense...federal law says they have to be labeled that way.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

How do you label your boxes according to federal law without putting "Live Harmless Reptiles", the common name, the scientific name, and the quantity? That makes no sense...federal law says they have to be labeled that way.

Incorrect, ladies and gentleman.

The outside of the package must say, at a minimum "wildlife" and a detailed invoice with common name and quantity must be included with the package. It is optional to write the specific details directly on the box.

Reference this thread which has the actual laws posted.

 

[bakew13]

mike udall

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To kyle howard
From: mike udall ([email protected])
Sent: Tue 10/26/10 11:37 PM
To: kyle howard ([email protected])
This message is too wide to fit your screen. Show full message
And I've never had to write any common and scientific name of anything. Not sure where you are coming up with this crap( It's called the LACY ACT Mike, you could've googled it). I always put that it is "live perishible goods" and I put "fragile" stickers on the outside So you admit to intentionally shipping illegaly?). Not a smart idea to put down snakes as very very few employees know the rules. Sorry about being a little disrespectful calling me a " piece of shit snob" is "a little disrespectful"?, it just pissed me off that you would blame me when in my mind I did NOTHING wrong.

Mike

Judy, I DO label my boxes according to federal law!! I fill out the form truthfully and answer every question I am asked truthfully! I also used to ALWAYS put the stickers makred "LIVE HARMLESS REPTILES" or something to that nature on my boxes until I ran into fed ex employee's causing problems because they didn't know the corrrect procedure. I stopped doing it and things ran much more smoothly.

Which is it Mike?? There is a big difference between live perishable goods and Live harmless reptiles. Story seems to have changed a bit.

 

[deborahbroadus]

Which is it Mike?? There is a big difference between live perishable goods and Live harmless reptiles. Story seems to have changed a bit.

The first quotation seems to be what he does NOW; the later quotation to Judy seems to be what he USED to do.

 

[FireStorm]

Incorrect, ladies and gentleman.

The outside of the package must say, at a minimum "wildlife" and a detailed invoice with common name and quantity must be included with the package. It is optional to write the specific details directly on the box.

Reference this thread which has the actual laws posted.

Thank you for posting that. I was basing my post off this portion of the Lacey Act:

(b)​

[FONT=Verdana,Verdana][FONT=Verdana,Verdana]Marking offenses [/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana,Verdana]

[FONT=Verdana,Verdana]It is unlawful for any person to import, export, or transport in interstate commerce any container or package containing any fish or wildlife unless the container or package has previously been plainly marked, labeled, or tagged in accordance with the regulations issued pursuant to paragraph (2) of section 3376(a) of this title. [/FONT]​

[/FONT]​

I've looked for more specific info but hadn't found it...

 

[ForkedTung]

Incorrect, ladies and gentleman.

The outside of the package must say, at a minimum "wildlife" and a detailed invoice with common name and quantity must be included with the package. It is optional to write the specific details directly on the box.

Reference this thread which has the actual laws posted.

Stephanie, that thread makes no mention of the Lacey Act that I can see, it is concerned with Shipping company policies from what I can see, in my quick look at it.
After a quick search I did find this here:

It can be be UPS, Fed-Ex, DHL, Delta, US Air, etc. The Lacey Act clearly states that any reptile shipment crossing state lines must be labeled with the exact contents: Common & scientific name of each herp, as well as the quantity of each. As per the Lacey Act, this has to be clearly marked on the outside of the box, and not simply listed on a packing list inside the box. Still using the Ball Python as an example, if I ship it to you and the box is simply labeled as "Live Harmless Reptiles", I have violated the Lacey Act and "YOU" will violate the Lacey Act if you accept the shipment. If does not matter at all if the shipping company states that it is OK with them if your shipment is simply labeled as "Live Harmless Reptiles". No shipping company policy can override the "Federal" Lacey Act when it comes to labeling shipments!!!

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-53097.html
granted it is from 04' and need to look further into this.
Regardless,I would like to have that topic taken to that thread as the problem occurred because that particular FedEx facility ( formerly Kinko's) will not keep any wildlife ( regardless of whether it has legs or not, so ANY label mentioning wildlife would have drawn their attention) overnight and that was the reason I was told they had to move it by 5:30 or so because that was when the last truck would be able to ship it there to the other facility ( in Tempe) that will keep them.

All shipment travel activity is displayed in local time for the location
To display the shipment travel activity in local time of the scan, please select "Local Scan Time" time zone option.
Alert: To determine the destination time zone for this shipment please select from the Others list.
Alert: To determine the origin time zone for this shipment please select from the Others list.
No entries found
Date/Time
Activity
Location
Details
Oct 26, 2010 6:52 PM
Delivered
TEMPE, AZ
Delivered to recipient at FedEx Office
Oct 26, 2010 6:34 PM
At local FedEx facility
TEMPE, AZ

Oct 26, 2010 5:15 PM
Delivery exception
GILBERT, AZ
Unable to hold at FedEx facility for recipient pickup
Oct 26, 2010 9:36 AM
Held at FedEx location for recipient pickup
GILBERT, AZ
Package available for pickup at FedEx Office:
3765 S GILBERT RD

Forgot that Mike Udall goes by Lavman breeder on cornsnakes.com

Also nice to see that you support and use Joe Pierce as a 'business' reference??? with friends like that...
Could someone link to that ?

 

[Southern Wolf]

Hey Kevin Batchelor,

I'm not the one that shipped this snake here. Just because my way is different that your way does not make it wrong. I follow the Lacey Act and don't make it obvious that there is a snake in the box. And please tell me what I did wrong? If the store allows it's customers to pick up packages until 9pm and I come in at 6 pm, that means I am arriving 3 hours before the store closes. How am I too late? You may want to take your foot out of your own mouth. My policy remark is regarding the Fex-ex "POLICY" not federal law. Please read things through before attacking. And I admitted way before your post that he is a reptile certified shipper....again, read the entire post before posting. I was going by what the Fed-ex lady told me. I am not surprised she was wrong. And although I made a "threat" about going to the BOI, I never would have done it as this situation is not a big deal imo. I just wouldn't not used him again. Fact of the matter.....The true reason I had an issue was due to FEX EX having made a mistake...just as the store owner told me from the first store. It would have helped if said shipper would have made it less conspicuous that it was a live snake. This is MY opinion.

if your not labeling the outside of the box... then yes... your wrong. If your trying to fly under the radar... then yes.... your wrong.

I will agree with you about the fedex lady.... but here is another angle to consider. Maybe she couldnt tell you about thier customers account. I dunno.

As to your threat... all we have is your words that you typed... and I put them together. It looked obvious to me that he just beat you to the post.

 

[Southern Wolf]

The seller tried to contact me via email but I am not permitted to access email at work. He hadn't got my cell phone so he couldn't call or text me. These kinds of things happen!!

This I can believe.... as I am blocked from my email as well at work. Course I cant have my cell with me either. Just a thought to consider.... if you know your gonna be at work.... offer some sort of communication to the seller..... just in case something goes wrong.

In the past I have had a couple shipments where the shipping company messed up... and it was always nice to have communications. If something goes wrong... its stressful enough without adding to not being able to get in touch with the seller or buyer.

Judy, I DO label my boxes according to federal law!! I fill out the form truthfully and answer every question I am asked truthfully! I also used to ALWAYS put the stickers makred "LIVE HARMLESS REPTILES" or something to that nature on my boxes until I ran into fed ex employee's causing problems because they didn't know the corrrect procedure. I stopped doing it and things ran much more smoothly.

Every box that goes out of here is marked in red ink.... "Live Harmless Reptiles" in compliance with the lacy act. I agree that some folks let their phobias get the best of them. I saw that first hand when I shiped out a box of geckos.... but I still have to do it to be legal.

 

[Southern Wolf]

Way too much judgement and assumption going on in the above post. You are blowing this WAY out of proportion. I would have loved to have checked my email but I could not. The seller never even got a phone number to contact me. You are obviously a Kevin fan. I've never said in my post that I don't comply with the Lacey act. And obviously most people here are Kevin fans and are backing him up. I do this as a hobby and because I love it, not to make money. Because I am not in the "BIG TIME" I do not have a fan base to get my back. I do have plenty of friends but they have no idea this post even exists. I'm off to work.

It's kind of funny Kevin, every time I log on to this site I see your name at the bottom which means you are constantly lurking at this post waiting to see who and how I am insulted.

And that would be a bold face lie. I just woke up 15 minutes ago... and now Im playing catch up. Therefore when you made these posts.... I wasn't even logged into the system. Would you like some salt for your foot. Might help the flavor

I cant help it if I work evenings... and this thread took off last evening. I make a post and I move on. When it shows someone else has responded in a thread I have... then I go back to read what was said.

Ummmmm isn't that how a forum works.

As to folks being Kevin fans.... maybe you should look at it this way. Maybe they just agree with what I am saying because I speak the truth. Everyone here is free to make up their own minds about a thread. I may have someone agreeing with me in one thread..... and the next one they may completely on the other side of the fence bickering with me.

 

[Southern Wolf]

Stephanie, that thread makes no mention of the Lacey Act that I can see, it is concerned with Shipping company policies from what I can see, in my quick look at it.

This part IS the Lacy Act

Reptile Shipment Labeling
Reference: 50 CFR 14 10.2008.pdf - specifically 14.82

Maybe she can edit it and place Lacy Act out beside Reptile Shipment Labeling.

 

[FireStorm]

Stephanie, that thread makes no mention of the Lacey Act that I can see, it is concerned with Shipping company policies from what I can see, in my quick look at it.

I believe she was referring to this part of the thread:

Reptile Shipment Labeling
Reference: 50 CFR 14 10.2008.pdf - specifically 14.82

Option One

(i) Conspicuously marking the outside of each container or package containing fish or wildlife with the word “fish” or “wildlife” as appropriate for its contents, or with the common name of its contents by species, and

(ii) Including an invoice, packing list, bill of lading, or similar document to accompany the shipment which accurately states the name and address of the shipper and consignee, states the total number of packages or containers in the shipment, and for each species in the shipment specifies:

(A) The common name that identifies the species (examples include: Chinook (or king) salmon; bluefin tuna; and whitetail deer) and whether or not the listed species is venomous; and

(B) The number of that species (or other appropriate measure of quantity such as gross or net weight).
​

The invoice, packing list, bill of lading, or equivalent document must be securely attached to the outside of one container or package in the shipment or otherwise physically accompany the shipment in a manner which makes it readily accessible for inspection
​

Option Two

Affixing the shipper’s wildlife import/export license number preceded by the three letters “FWS” on the outside of each container or package containing fish or wildlife, if the shipper has valid wildlife import/export license issued under authority of 50 CFR part 14. For each shipment marked in accordance with this paragraph, the records maintained under §14.93(c) must include a copy of the invoice, packing list, bill of lading, or other similar document that accurately states the information required by paragraph (a)(1)(ii) of this section.
​

Option Three

In the case of subcontainers or packages within a larger packing container, only the outermost container must be marked in accordance with this section. Except, that for live fish or wildlife that are packed in subcontainers within a larger packing container, if the subcontainers are numbered or labeled, the packing list, invoice, bill or lading, or other similar document, must reflect that number or label. However, each subcontainer containing a venomous species must be clearly marked as venomous.
​

Option Four

A conveyance (truck, plane, boat, etc.) is not considered a container for purposes of requiring specific marking of the conveyance itself, provided that:

(i) The fish or wildlife within the conveyance is carried loosely or is readily identifiable, and is accompanied by the document required by paragraph (a)(1)(ii) of this section, or

(ii) The fish or wildlife is otherwise packaged and marked in accordance with this subpart.
​

Option one will suit most shippers.

 

[ForkedTung]

Kevin and Shelley, When i searched for that
50 CFR 14 10.2008
it came up as Fish and Wildlife code, not specific to Lacey, although Lacey may reference it?
Again, while that has come up as part of the thread here, it really isn't relevant to what actually happened so if we could stay on topic here and discuss shipping in Steph's thread here:
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180063