Mites and filth are free with Ray Goushaw Herpetological Breeding Research

[Jim O]

Jim: Perhaps your recent post substantiated why I am not willing to debate you over this. I tried nicely earlier to explain why, but I think you explained it better for me with your temper.

As to this removal or freeze bit: I read a different post a while ago that made reference to the removal of a thread that implicated a third party that had nothing to do with the deal. I partly recall that the webmaster commented something to the effect that it can be done by committee or cannot be done unless the people who made it, agree to it, so that is where I got that idea from. And I have seen other posts frozen so I know the webmaster is capable of this. And I respectfully asked him to do this, so EXCUSE me for having read the terms of service, knowing them, however pointing out that I had knowledge about another method. And if I am right about this method bit to freeze or remove or delay and I respectfully requested it be done until he return from vacation, are you man enough to apologize for your attack?

And a lot of your words are based on statements given by the buyer. I mean if the guy said that Ray was supposed to ship on Thursday and the seller took it there on Thursday, what's not to say that there may be 100 reasons why it could not arrive on Thursday? I mean what if Delta told him it had to be on a later flight? What if his dog barfed in the car seat? What if his wife was stuck at work? What if it was lost? What if the seller had a busy day and had to put it off? You see. We do not know. There could be a thousand reasons? We cannot objectively approach this topic until the seller provides much useful information. What if who packed it was a disgruntled employee or a middleman? We don't know. We don't have sufficient data to make an objective opinion, only a one-sideed story of a snake that is perhaps free of mites at this point and was delivered only one day late. But you still willing to crucify anyone who respectfully requests something like a freeze until the seller can respond? I will talk with you but if you throw insults and loud words for no good reason like you did about the freeze bit, then I am not willing to continue.

Well there you go again, not debating me and debating me at the same time. A third party post is also covered in the TOS. Read it. Enlighten yourself.

If Tim's post is removed I will of course be forced to publicly eat my words and I will do so. When it has not been removed, as it is surely not going to be (unless this entire thread is moved to "Hell") will you?

We still have a mite infested poorly shipped snake. And it was shipped on Friday. If there was a reason for the delay, then the shipper should have called Tim. He didn't. And again, the snake was booked on a 9AM Friday flight. Dash is not like FedEx. The shipments must be booked in advance. You can speculate all you like about the dog eating his homework but in the end, there is still a snake with mites, poorly shipped in a soiled, unwashed pillow case, and you're nitpicking over 18 million reasons why the package went out on Friday.

Want to debate, fine. Don't want to debate, also fine. You can't have both. You sound a bit like Hubert Humphrey when he would say "For the first time in my life I am speechless, but let me say this..."

 

[Dan Scolaro]

Jim:

I respectfully requested to the webmaster (not you) a freeze so perhaps the seller might be afforded a reasonable opportunity to respond. For some odd reason, this yanks your chain sufficient to chew my butt for so long.

If I was a tad off by this request, no big deal, don't sweat bullets over it. First of all, it was a request between me and the webmaster, not you, so why are you even interested or upset by something I did not ask from you? You can inform me that it is not allowed according to the rules, however I am permitted to express it without intimidation, especially since common sense tells you that there are always exceptions to any rules. Or is it a lack of common sense were talking about here? Hum.

And I am not nitpicking anything. Personally you are the biggest nitpicker I ever saw on the BOI. Ever since you started posting a few months ago, I have seen so many nits picked that the birds are ready to fly out of North America for another nit source.

And as to this Friday thing, perhaps he was in a terrible rush and he could not call? I don't know? But I do know one thing; I am not going to speculate like you have, but rather take a responsible approach to listen to the positive comments that the seller is a good person and has an established reputation. And a person with an established reputation does not do these things, so I have the common sense to wait for an explanation before taking out the rope and throwing it over a tree like you have. And I am not going to assume he took off without knowing he did something wrong here, as he reputation proceeds him, and he should be afforded the opportunity to speak before you jump to conclusions.

There is a thing in this county called innocent until proven guilty.

You have decided for yourself to be the judge, jury, prosecutor, and now hangman. And the plaintiff (the seller) has not even been afforded a fair opportunity to speak one single word as he is knowingly on vacation and away from his computer. I should hope that you would like an opportunity to speak if your ever involved in a sloppy transaction.

And who you trying to hang? Me or the seller?

 

[Zoo Supply]

ok.....

Tom

While I understand the actual costs of the meds would be minimal, I think your missing my point.

Can you honestly say that the importers are bringing theese animals in with the intention of sitting on them for weeks before even advertising them? Do you think they live in a bubble and they have total controll over when the animals come or go?

Ive been down there once, but been around long enough to grasp how this works. The second a shipment lands its getting picked through by the local jobbers or other importers for their share. Many of theese animals leave the same day they land at times. So now the importers are supposed to tell the jobbers... NOPE YOU CANT HAVE IT TODAY, COME BACK WHEN ITS BEEN TREATED? I just dont see it, thats giving them far to much credit for concern over the animal and not the dollar. And if that were the case, the whole import industry would be a much safer buy then it is, but it isnt.

So say they make it out of the box that first day without getting picked through. Im no expert by any means, but I believe proper parisite treatment takes a few courses over minimmum of a few days, if not a few weeks. So now you HONESTLY believe the importers are going to stick to that.

My point is this, Id rather someone be honest that an animal has not been treated for parisites then to lie and say they have. More importantly Id rather not get animals shot gunned full of meds on the chance they may have a parisite that med will cover. What are the honest chances a fecal was run on THAT animal? How about a follow up fecal to see that the meds have done the job and are no longer needed.

Im not saying that every time I see "treated for parisites" I DONT believe them, but more often then not I question it.

ALright, I got ya, missunderstood ya a bit...anyways, gotta love the direction this thread is taking.

TOM

 

[Tim Rash]

I am not sure why I keep seeing he was in a hurry to leave town thats why he didn't call. He didn't leave till Sunday and this was after me and him emailed each other back and forth and I already told him by email since he quit taking my calls that I wanted to ship her back today Monday thats when Sunday afternoon I am emailed saying hes out of the country till the 9th. I know for a fact one hour before I got that email he had several animals posted for sale. Then they all were gone. I don't understand why he would let an lacky worker ship me this animal but wont let another worker pick her up if I ship her back. Hmmm think about what I am saying. I know first hand its a lot easier to pickup a shipment than it is to send one. Its not like I am sending him one of my animals for him to look over its one he sent me.

Tim

 

[evansnakes]

A couple general thoughts on this thread from somebosy that does not have any interest with either side of the situation.

This is a great example of why this site is so important to this industry. Ray sold the animal and therefore Ray is 100% completely responsible for the animal that arrives to the buyer is arriving safe, healthy, as described (i.e. size, sex, color, pattern) and that everything involved in the transaction is handled to completion. I have no problem with people who do this poorly as in the long run it will only get me more sales as I ship my animals in brand new styro lined shipping boxes, in clean new pillow case snake bags with heat or cold packs and I fill the box with newspaper or other material to insure the animal does not get bounced around in transit. With that said, if somebody were to ship me an animal as this buyer has described, the transaction would be posted on the BOI.

The fact that Ray offered a refund (and then left so he could not complete that transaction) is great but it does not change the space time continuim and reverse the fact that the animal has mites, was packaged improperly (which the goverment could assess thousands of dollars in fines for by the way) (and prohibit him from shipping via airfreight is they like), was shipped without the buyer having any idea when the animal was shipped or would arrive and those facts, regardless of who actually took the package to the airport, make Ray the seller on the end of a poor transaction.

On to Dan. There are few things that bother me more than people throwing around words they seem to have no concept or understanding of. The legal definition and the burden for prosecution or civil lawsuite for a cause of slander or defamation of character is based on one thing entirely. The ability to prove that what was said/written was in fact a lie and it was an intentional lie to cause harm to the libeled/slandered/defamed party. Do you really for a second think that this buyer is making this story up to hurt Ray's business or reputation? If not (and obviously the other 20 or so posters think not), then you need to drop your misuse of the terms and your repeated use of the word "comdemn". How is he condemning anyone by posting his side of the story of a transaction that he is involved in here? He is using this board and this site for it's exact intended purpose. His very use and his right to free speach are things that I will support here with my words and my money as I have in the past. If you dissagree with the poster that is fine but for you to keep questioning his right to post this thread is wrong and will not stand. Drop the facism.

Let's be clear, regardless of what Ray did or did not do, regardless of who is happy or unhappy with Ray's animals, we are all waiting for Ray to get back from vacation, to post his side of the story and that will advance this thread. Dan, you do him no favors with your posts. What will you say if Ray posts on this thread and concurs with the author and takes responsibility for his mistakes? Won't that make you look stupid? You say you have never done business with him, don't know him and are not involved in this transaction. Then why are you so aggressive in your comments to have the thread removed, the thread frozen, to claim he is being condemned and guilty without the presumption of innocence? This thread is just like hundreds of others on this board and I have never seen you jump to the aid of those sellers.

 

[David Reid]

....

For anyone to say that sending someone a snake with mites is commonplace in the industry, and therefore acceptable is moronic.

I think there are probably two views on mites, depending on your involvement in the hobby.

If you are a small keeper, or small breeder, it is TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE TO RECEIVE ANIMALS WITH MITES AND/OR TICKS. I am in this group. I have a small, approx. $40K collection, about 30 animals total. I buy from a limited number of people, and expect CLEAN animals to be shipped to me. I have a spare bedroom I use as a quarantine room, but it is not heated with a space heater like my snake room, and therefore a pain to keep animals there for an extended period of time. Yes, I could get another heater, but the wife is VERY paranoid about fires starting because of a faulty heater...To me, receiving mites is a slap in the face, basically the seller is saying they could care less about your collection. Mites can equal IBD, and that is enough for me to agree with the original poster, mites should not be considered commonplace.

The second group is the WC purchaser, breeder/jobber/importer. You probably work with mites on a daily basis. You may have all the sprays, medications, etc. If you buy from an importer, or buy a 1000 lot of ch Balls, the seller cannot possibly go through each and every ball to thoroughly check it out, and you might expect to receive external parasites. However, if mites are no big deal, easy to get rid of, THEN THE SELLER SHOULD GET RID OF ANY MITES PRIOR TO SHIPPING.

If I buy from a breeder, I expect, demand, no mites. If I bought a huge lot of animals, or wc advertised animals, I might expect mites, and therefore be ready for them.

Dave

 

[Jim O]

On behalf of the BOI, I am proud to announce that the winner of the Queen Gertrude award tonight is none other than....Dan Scolaro.

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

--From Hamlet (III, ii, 239)

Queen Gertrude speaks these famous words to her son, Prince Hamlet, while watching a play at court. Gertrude does not realize that Hamlet has staged this play to trap her and her new husband, King Claudius, whom Hamlet suspects of having murdered his father. She also does not realize that the lady who "doth protest too much" is actually herself, as the Player King and Queen represent King Hamlet and Queen Gertrude. The former will be poisoned (in this play within the play) by the king's brother, as in reality (Hamlet suspects) Claudius killed King Hamlet. Gertrude's statement is in response to the play-Queen's repetitive statements of loyalty to and love of her first husband.

Now we have all heard how Dan thinks that mites happen commonly and we shouldn't be jumping up and down about them.

Well here's a quote from Dan here at Fauna:

Have you ever had your expensive collection exposed to a dead and diseased ridden snake? It might be acceptable for you, but it’s not worth the worry if you ask me.

For those that don't know this was in response to Dan allegedly receiving a dead snake at his door which NEVER actually got into his collection. But mites in Tim's collection, known vectors of disease, well they are OK for Tim's collection. Nevermind the dirty pillowcase that could well have been harboring parasites that might find their way (directly or...*gasp*...via mite vectors) into Tim's collection.

Dan, is it OK to expose Tim's collection but not OK to expose yours? Hmmm...a double standard. Or is it just a case of "The lady doth protest too much, methinks"?

 

[Dennis Hultman]

What a busy day it has been.

Troll of the year award goes to RyanT somebody please take this poor boy’s computer away.

Is he sick or something? I can't believe he hasn't made one of his insightful offerings on this one yet. It's been up for a few hours and a perfect target. Maybe he's busy writing a rough draft and making revisions.

Poster boy for the “LOCK BOX”.

I always think it's funny when people throw around the "I would never do business with you" threat. I bet at least 90% of the time that's completely pointless to point out. How do you even know if that person deals with animals you have any interest in and if you would ever even have a reason to communicate on a "business" level? Sounds like an attention grabbing, false-sense-of-power trip.

I agree the packaging was substandard and mites just plain suck.

Unfortunately, I was sent a snake recently with mites. I took care of the issue privately. Hopefully it will never be an issue with this seller again. Right or wrong when I am sent a new snake it is treated as if it has mites know matter who sends it to me. I did not notice for two days after I received her, she was quarantined and I wiped those little guys out fast.

It is not ok to send mites and it is not ok to send a package this way, It is plain wrong. As I said in my first post I was surprised that this has happened with this seller and would like to see how he resolves the situation.

This is very surprising. I have read a lot of good things about Ray. I hope he gets on soon and explains.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

Mike:
Regardless, if they are fact, I still think he ought to get some lice-bedding spray and apologize and remove this post.
.

Absolutely NOT, Dan what have you been smoking today?

 

[Dennis Hultman]

apologize and remove this post

Absolutely NOT!

He should be pissed and should post, but we should see how Ray response before we through his number in the trash.

 

[Dan Scolaro]

Evan: you asked "How is he condemning anyone by posting his side of the story of a transaction that he is involved in here?" Well no one ever said that he (the buyer) was condeming anyone, your the only one who just said it. I did say that others were condeming by permitting bashing without hearing the sellers version of events. And as you can read from the initial post, the buyer was indeed informed that the seller is on vacation, and it's reasonable to understand that he cannot respond, and there is nothing here that requires urgent action, just a sprit of lice bedding spray.

David: you said "For anyone to say that sending someone a snake with mites is commonplace in the industry, and therefore acceptable is moronic. " No one here said that, but perhaps it may be more moronic that you believe someone did say that. Or pehaps I am wrong and someone said that?

Jim: Your much worse off than I thought. Most people lost all respect for you when you bashed that kid who was already in jail. I gave you a pound of doubt, but you just dropped it on your foot. Lie down and take a nap. Make an appointment with your nearest healthcare provider and take your medication on time this week. Your talking apples and oranges. A dead snake riddled with coccidia and this blood python are two different matters. Again, do not allow the dancers in your head to cause you to loose much sleep. You are not worthy for any type of a discussion and I knew from the beginning that you would display your shoe size vice your age. You only proved my first prediction.

Dennis: Smoked nothing, but drank and spit out a can of fair play today. Did not say removed the post for good or delete it, I asked that it be removed and apologize or frozen until he returns so he can respond. It's fair I think and I think it will lead to more consideration when he does resolve this matter with the seller. I can live with it if you think otherwise, but if not, that is OK also.

 

[Jim O]

Well Dan and I agree on something. Apples and oranges. A dead snake (that Dan alleges had coccidia but never proved) that Dan whined about spreading disease but that NEVER got in his collection versus a LIVE snake that DID have mites and DID get into Tims's collection. Let's see, which posed more risk to whose collection? The dead snake that barely got in the door or the live one with the live mites?

Go on Dan. Explain that one. Along with "defame" and how "retract" and "remove" has now become "freeze". Where's his shovel?

 

[PaulSage]

WOW.

I posted the first reply to this thread only 36 hours ago, and I can't believe how much has posted since then. I read through ALL of it, and the main points have already been posted by a number of individuals. The main debate seems to be when you should/should not be surprised to see mites when receiving a reptile. I guess this really depends on how the seller represents the animal. If I offerred an '05 cbb snow corn snake that I produced myself, would you expect it to have mites? NO. If I was an importer/broker offerring a WC adult male Russian rat snake, would you be terribly surprised when you find mites in the bag?? I guess it depends on the situation; how the animal is presented, and the risks a buyer is willing to take. We all know that reptile mites exists, so I guess it comes down to whether or not you trust the seller and if you're prepared and willing to quarantine and treat the animal when it arrives.

It appears that everyone agrees the animal was packaged poorly and that Ray is responsible for dropping the ball as far as the communication between the buyer and seller goes. Add to that Ray should either stay in contact with customers via email while on vacation, or designate one of his employees to field customer inquiries and concerns while he is unavailable. If he is willing to trust one of his employees to box up and send an animal, I think that employee should also be entrusted with the responsibility of communicating with the buyer after the sale.

Regarding Dan's concern that this thread is comdemning Ray's business, I would have to politely disagree. My opinion is that it is too early for this incident to have a profound impact on Ray's business. I think that HOW, WHEN and IF Ray settles things with Tim will determine Ray's character as a businessman. If he is (and I'm not passing judgment, at least not yet ) a respectable businessman and resolves this issue, I would not rule out purchasing from him based solely upon this post. I think that others may agree.

As far as the bickering over who is the bigger bickerer, CONGRATULATIONS, we have a tie!! When you support your claims and state your opinions clearly, it's best to remember that everyone has a right to their own interpretation as well as opinion on what's been said. (Speed limit signs for example...)

Paul

 

[Tim Rash]

This snake is no where near my collection so I am lucky. From the smell and the looks of the box I knew not to put it in with the rest of my collection. I had to make another quarantine room so my other animals are safe but what if I didn't notice anything and put it in with the rest of mine like several people do when they buy a snake from a trustworthy person.

Tim

 

[Dennis Hultman]

Dennis: Smoked nothing, but drank and spit out a can of fair play today. Did not say removed the post for good or delete it, I asked that it be removed and apologize or frozen until he returns so he can respond. It's fair I think and I think it will lead to more consideration when he does resolve this matter with the seller. I can live with it if you think otherwise, but if not, that is OK also.

All of the statements below I believe very fair to Ray

I do agree with you that Ray needs the opportunity to address this before he is condemned. His reputation has earned him that much. But even so, he does have to take responsibility for his employee's actions. Until such a time as Ray is available to address this, everything else posted here is nothing more then banter.

Originally Posted by Dennis Hultman
This is very surprising. I have read a lot of good things about Ray. I hope he gets on soon and explains.

As I said in my first post I was surprised that this has happened with this seller and would like to see how he resolves the situation. .

but we should see how Ray response before we through his number in the trash.

Having said this I will also like to add that’s not the way Ray usually operates

Probably more, I just checked a couple of pages.

But Dan, no matter what thread you post on the topic always turns out to be about you instead. Why is that?

 

[Dennis Hultman]

I messed up a quote

Having said this I will also like to add that’s not the way Ray usually operates

 

[evansnakes]

So while Dan works on his semantics arguments and gets out his english to english dictionary, I will translate for him, but shame on all of you for not realizing that this whole situation is Tim's fault because Ray is on vacation. Did I get that right Dan? You are giving Tim a hard time because Ray can't or won't respond because he is on vaction? Now that I typed it and can see it in front of me in print it makes more sense. Sure. So Dan, why didn't Ray follow through and take care of it before he left, what, 2 days, 3 days later? What sense does that make with your "out the door on vacation" argument. How about this Dan, take a deep breath, leave the thread alone and let Ray when he gets back take care of this whole thing himself. It's like I said before, it does him no good to be defended by you when you make arguments that are contrary to reality. Tim has only stated the facts as he sees them on here. Are they biased? Probably. We all bring some bias to our side of conflicts, that is just how humans work you see. But nobody has called Ray any names, nobody has bashed him, nobody has said really anything out of line or personal about him at all. Just talking over the facts that Tim stated, as he sees them. When Ray throws up his side of the story or just eats it and puts it to sleep by apologizing, it will be over or will be open for more discussion, but like I said earlier, there really is nothing to add to this thread any longer that applies to the transaction it is about until we either hear from Ray or at least Tim hears from Ray or a long period of time goes by and nobody hears from Ray.

 

[Chris@TSE]

Wow, this sounds quite surprising. We did a bit of business with Ray a year or two ago and were quite pleased with the animals we received. I never encountered any problems such as these mentioned in this thread, aside from the fact that he improprely billed shipping and to this very day fedex is still trying to collect fees Ray should have paid.

We had contacted him about it and he had stated he would take care of it. We never received a reply after that. I also tried contacting him personally somewhat recently, perhaps a month or two ago, and again received no reply.

I never did get in touch with him, may as well call the fedex wolves and send them in the right direction. I was hoping I could avoid it and simply deal with Ray directly but apparently he's harder to reach than I am!

 

[Dan Scolaro]

Here we go again.

Jim: Again, your behavior is irrational, immature, and reckless to attack me and attempt to change the subject several times. I said that you were incapable of an any decent conversation before based on your many attacking posts on other threads, and again your counter statements only provide further evidence of this. As such, I will join the rest, and ignore any further posts you will ever make.

Dennis: I thought you were aware that it's commonplace to see some people throw rocks when some states something they don't agree with. That's fine also. I catch them.

Evan: I politely informed Tim that I was out to make it good for him, and your speculation does not represent my thoughts on the matter.

 

[reptilebreeder]

Jim: Your much worse off than I thought. Most people lost all respect for you when you bashed that kid who was already in jail.

You got that backwards. That arrogant, law breaking (greed motive, not civil disobedience nobility), herp god (self professed) deserves to be in jail. I think a lot more people lost respect for you three that still worship him, than any lost respect for saying otherwise.