Bad Guy Nathan Tow-Arnett TERRIBLE

[bloodybaroness]

Ed and Deb are right. It really is flushing money down the toilet.

I hope the OP pursues Nathan as hard and as much as he can, but to spend more and more $$$$ on this is not prudent. File claims, report him, use resources...yes. Hork hundreds and hundreds of dollars into testing...no.

If the animal was shipped in a reasonable manner (proper over night, temp, etc.) then maybe I would enlist a vet to find out why it died. It was slow shipped in near freezing weather, bam... there is your problem right there.

 

[akonitony]

I don't even know where to start, whatever.

Deb and I were both offering a general rule of thumb for people and necropsy freezing vs. refrigeration. Not saying it was the end all, be all for the flipping universe. No need to call every vet with a phone to prove us wrong.

I don't know what the OP's financial status is, but most of us can't afford to sink a massive amount of money into testing over a $150 animal. There is no guarantee that the OP would ever see that money back, even if it went to court. If this was a, let's say $2,000 transaction, I might see the reasoning for going through with testing. I would not invest a vast sum of cash into a case like this. Ratcheting up more and more vet bills at this point seems like a waste.

What most logically killed this animal was 2 day shipping in a way too cold for two long box.

I hope the OP gets some resolution. Nathan seems to have clammed up and I can only the OP will get compensation from him at some point soon.

Ok Autumn, here is a link to temps in Madagascar, which is where this Mossy-leaf-tail gecko originates:

http://www.climatetemp.info/madagascar/

You will see, "The coolest average min/ low temperature is 10 °C (50 °F) in June, July & August." So even if this animal got down to 40°F in an insulated box that was most-likely kept at room temps for the greatest duration of her 48-hour journey, that is only 10°f cooler than the low temps she might experience in her native country. So, like I stated before, I doubt the lack of heatpack is what killed her. If anything, it might have kept her from cooking, because that is often what happens with heatpacks, but lowering a reptile's temp for a short duration usually is a good thing when you want them to stay calm. Even if that was what sent her to her demise, I'd like to hear how one would go about proving it in a claims court.
Also, $50 is not a great deal of money to invest if there is at least some chance of getting it back, which there is. The OP already stated he was ready for a counteroffer when he offered the $150, so I imagine he would have been comfortable with paying $200 for the animal, which would then be his grannd total. Rather than saying the seller has gotten away with it, I think NTA should be making sure he knew exactly what meds, how much, and when he dosed her, and be able to prove to a judge, if need be, he knew exactly what he was doing. I think he messed her up, and she was not doing all that well, so he decided to sell her to the highest bidder. Make sense?

The earlier info only took one call, BTW.

 

[reticguy76]

i suppose its the medicinal side of me. its in my brain to get as much of a definitive diagnosis as absolutely possible. even though, a lot of the time, it is pretty evident what the cause is, i just like to be positive. not saying its right or wrong to do it or not do it, its just that part of my brain that says, just to be a little extra sure.

 

[bloodybaroness]

Jesus wept Anthony, you must be bored.

Since clearly Me, Deb and Ed are the only ones not drinking the kool-aid, I'm done.

Unsubscribed and I wish the OP best of luck.

 

[reticguy76]

do we know what the temp was, in the box ??

there have been many many many animals that have gone much longer than 2 days in cold weather conditions. reptiles have the ability to slow and basically shut down organs, blood flow and such when exposed to subpar conditions.

i personally have had snakes exposed to 20 degree weather for up to 4 days (when i lived in northern arizona) and my electricity went out and i was out of town (lucikly it was my last 4 days of being away) all were very called and barely moving, but when heated up and placed in warm water for awhile, all were very well. this wa 6 years ago, and all of them (retics) are going strong today.
i think that is why i would still just do a necrospy. is it throwing money downt he drain ?? depends on your outlook on it. it wouldnt be to me, because i would want to know for sure.

and i agree, i highly doubt a refund will be issued no matter what the reason is

 

[akonitony]

i suppose its the medicinal side of me. its in my brain to get as much of a definitive diagnosis as absolutely possible. even though, a lot of the time, it is pretty evident what the cause is, i just like to be positive. not saying its right or wrong to do it or not do it, its just that part of my brain that says, just to be a little extra sure.

Just because a majority votes on what they THINK happened, does not make it so. I'm in agreement with the reticguy on this, I'd like to know within reasonable doubt what happened. I think I've already provided ample evidence that a lack of a heatpack might not be the culprit.

Interestingly, there are several layers of burden of proof. The bottom layer is reasonable suspicion, which has been crossed in that the animal died when it shouldn't have. The next layer, we seem to be stuck on, and that is probable cause. There seems to be two possibilities here, but one road leads to a dead end, that being able to prove the next level of "by preponderance of the evidence", which if we go with the tissue-sample route, could possibly take us to the next level, which is clear and convincing evidence, but that level usually does not have to be attained in small claims court, just the level below it. For those of you interested, the next level is beyond a reasonable doubt, which I doubt could be attained even with the best of the evidence available at this time, but fortunately, all the OP has to do is get to the "More likely than not" level, or preponderance level, to win a civil suit. I don't think the judge would allow our opinions to get him there, so his only viable options are take a loss, or go for it with another $50.
If he gets the samples done, and they show what I am hoping they might, he could send a copy to NTA, and probably convince him to refund $200 for the tests and purchase price rather than risk even more by going to court. Worst case scenario is the OP will be out $200 rather than $150.

 

[deborahbroadus]

No, you seem to be misunderstanding. I am not "thinking" anything happened. These are the FACTS:

1. Animal shipped in contradiction to buyers request
2. Animal took two days to arrive (or arrival delayed by more than 24 hours)
3. Temps were low (regardless of where they came from..HERE it is understood that we do a heat pack in 40s and lower.)
4. No Heat Pack was provided because of the seller's selection of box sizes.
5. Animal died a couple of days after arrival
6. HEALTHY animals do not die in two days from having a picture taken, and nothing else seems out of the ordinary from what the buyer has posted that could have contributed to the death.

If it were me, I would not be trying to waste MORE money in an attempt to get the buyer to give what is owned. As long as the buyer finds justification in posts of others that are SPECULATING on what "could" have happened, nothing will be accomplished.

Just because a majority votes on what they THINK happened, does not make it so. I'm in agreement with the reticguy on this, I'd like to know within reasonable doubt what happened. I think I've already provided ample evidence that a lack of a heatpack might not be the culprit.

Interestingly, there are several layers of burden of proof. The bottom layer is reasonable suspicion, which has been crossed in that the animal died when it shouldn't have. The next layer, we seem to be stuck on, and that is probable cause. There seems to be two possibilities here, but one road leads to a dead end, that being able to prove the next level of "by preponderance of the evidence", which if we go with the tissue-sample route, could possibly take us to the next level, which is clear and convincing evidence, but that level usually does not have to be attained in small claims court, just the level below it. For those of you interested, the next level is beyond a reasonable doubt, which I doubt could be attained even with the best of the evidence available at this time, but fortunately, all the OP has to do is get to the "More likely than not" level, or preponderance level, to win a civil suit. I don't think the judge would allow our opinions to get him there, so his only viable options are take a loss, or go for it with another $50.
If he gets the samples done, and they show what I am hoping they might, he could send a copy to NTA, and probably convince him to refund $200 for the tests and purchase price rather than risk even more by going to court. Worst case scenario is the OP will be out $200 rather than $150.

 

[akonitony]

No, you seem to be misunderstanding. I am not "thinking" anything happened. These are the FACTS:

1. Animal shipped in contradiction to buyers request
2. Animal took two days to arrive (or arrival delayed by more than 24 hours)
3. Temps were low (regardless of where they came from..HERE it is understood that we do a heat pack in 40s and lower.)
4. No Heat Pack was provided because of the seller's selection of box sizes.
5. Animal died a couple of days after arrival
6. HEALTHY animals do not die in two days from having a picture taken, and nothing else seems out of the ordinary from what the buyer has posted that could have contributed to the death.

If it were me, I would not be trying to waste MORE money in an attempt to get the buyer to give what is owned. As long as the buyer finds justification in posts of others that are SPECULATING on what "could" have happened, nothing will be accomplished.

Those are indeed the facts, except #1, which I've shown in a previous post it was 'fine' with the buyer, or at least that is what he wrote in post #1, and could be used by the seller to construe that supposed fact in other ways than what you are stating. Number 3 is also questionable since some people evidently do go without heatpacks, but personally I would ask the buyer if they wanted one or not, which leaves them in control and responsible for the outcome. Besides, how would you present that to a judge? If you've never seen a reptile cooked by a heatpack, someday you just might.
Now for some more facts:
1) The seller admitted he dosed the animal with panacur, and he may not have known what he was doing since he is not a vet, but is merely working on his animal science degree, which is not that hard of a degree BTW, at least it wasn't when I got mine.
2) As I've shown, 40°F is only 10° lower than the animal might experience in it's own natural environment. It MAY have been beneficial to cool down this lizard while she was in transit to keep her calm.
3) The seller dropped the price drastically without even so much as a counteroffer, which adds to reasonable suspicion.
This is why it is evident the animal was sick before it was shipped. That is why a pair of tissue samples of the right tissue might yield the evidence one needs to prove by preponderance of the evidence the animal was sick before it was shipped, and it does not matter from there - the seller will have played hardball, and lost. He can claim he didn't know it was sick, but the outcome will be the same, and he clearly does want to play hardball at this point. It does not matter how you reason with this guy, he's only going to respond to force.

 

[akonitony]

Here is an interesting study on fenbendazole, or panacur:

http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecfa/jecmono/v29je05.htm

Now, granted, bovine were the most adversely affected group, and even they would have to take massive amounts to reach their LD50 level, which is the level of toxicity where they have a 50%-chance of dying, but on a miniaturized scale the size of a lizard that weighs maybe an ounce or two, the LD50 could be surpassed quite easily. To summarize the study in a nutshell, it showed fenbendazole causes bone marrow suppression and can cause some liver damage when used long term. This good enough evidence to back up my theory?

 

[deborahbroadus]

Ahhh,

I understand. We are seeing different parts of the same story, and emphasizing different aspects. Either way, it's apparent (imo) that the seller still carries the brunt of the responsibility.

 

[Ed Clark]

Ok Autumn, here is a link to temps in Madagascar, which is where this Mossy-leaf-tail gecko originates:

http://www.climatetemp.info/madagascar/

You will see, "The coolest average min/ low temperature is 10 °C (50 °F) in June, July & August." So even if this animal got down to 40°F in an insulated box that was most-likely kept at room temps for the greatest duration of her 48-hour journey, that is only 10°f cooler than the low temps she might experience in her native country. So, like I stated before, I doubt the lack of heatpack is what killed her.

Anthony I respectfully disagree with you.

The lack of a heat pack probably does play a big part in the lizards death. shipping is in unheated cargo holds and will get extremely cold at high altitudes.at least that is the info I was told.undoubtedly stress from being in a box for 2 days played a big part with this fragile lizard as well.

 

[akonitony]

Ahhh,

I understand. We are seeing different parts of the same story, and emphasizing different aspects. Either way, it's apparent (imo) that the seller still carries the brunt of the responsibility.

Certainly. If the OP takes NTA to small claims court, he could use both angles. The more evidence the better - it's like the seller added salt to the wound. He definitely dropped the ball with shipping USPS rather than what the buyer requested, and the buyer was cool enough to say "weird, but fine", but when the animal died, and the seller does not want to accept one bit of the responsibility for it, time to play hardball and gather not only the majority's opinions but the cold, hard evidence as well. I have a feeling the liver of that animal will be anything but healthy once it is put in an expert with a microscope's hands. That evidence along with the added crap of the way NTA had his girlfriend do the shipping - something most people who are sending off a valuable live animal would want to do themselves - will only serve to compound the preponderance of evidence for the plaintiff's side. I count between us at least 7 good points the OP can use if he so chooses to go on with the fight. I also think if the seller looks back over everything, he'll see I have given him as much benefit of the doubt as I possibly could, but in the end, he's basically going to get tripped up if the cards line up like I have a suspicion they will. It's now up to the OP to decide what he wants to do.

 

[akonitony]

Anthony I respectfully disagree with you.

The lack of a heat pack probably does play a big part in the lizards death. shipping is in unheated cargo holds and will get extremely cold at high altitudes.at least that is the info I was told.undoubtedly stress from being in a box for 2 days played a big part with this fragile lizard as well.

Well, Ed, I don't think we are in disagreement on that one. Even if the box temp stayed at 70°F the whole time, the animal would still be stressed from being enclosed in a box. My point regarding not using a heat pack is based on the box size. I'm sure you'll agree if heat packs are to be used, the animal needs to be able to still thermoregulate by getting away from it as well as getting close to it. I just wouldn't want one of my animals put in a small box with a heatpack under them the whole time. I'd rather have them get cold than be overheated, but better yet, go with the correct box size and set that up like one should for a temporary housing. That's exactly what it is.

 

[Nathan Tow-Arnett]

I’m back! (Ed Clark wrong again)

Bloodlybaroness – Everything you “spout” is off of your opinion and since you can’t formulate an intelligent argument in response to Akonitony you criticize him saying he’s bored when he is actually using his intellectual experience and facts to back up his argument. You really think you’re not the one drinking the punch huh? OK. Anyway no I didn’t clam up, had to take care of finals. You don’t read very thorough do you? Here are the nuggets I think you’re looking for,

Buyer said this *Seller indicates local temperatures were 40 degrees but did not utilize a heat pack for this animal.”

I have mentioned this,” I have had more animals replaced by sellers because of heat packs and a couple I had to replace myself from a roasted reptile. Heat packs are a gamble in my opinion. I have received many reptiles over the years in 40 to 50 degree weather and have had more DOA from heat packs than without heat packs.”

Back on the same page now?

Kerrek – You said “When 95% of people will disagree with you but you are smarter than the rest of us.” Yes that is my reason for doing my shipping experiments. I believe it is accurate to say the 95% you speak of have not done their own research into shipping with USPS and are forming their opinion off an assumption or something they read about a bad experience. Here is the fallacy in that thought process, with a perfect example, now I’m sure you’ve heard of the Eyelash Viper (Bothriechis schlegelii)? Well it was believed the species was strictly nocturnal until disproven by herpetologist Geoff Sorrell who was featured on NatGeo’s Snake Wranglers. Though still largely nocturnal, he was able to film that the vipers will take prey during the day. So he just proved the 95% who thought otherwise wrong.

Jmwboas – no the buyer does not get a full refund just solely off of shipping changes, given the gecko died several days later. No result in an experiment is 100% when shipping (disregarding extreme factors) even when something is 90% successful, the 10% fail could be attributed by another unknown factor than the reason perceived, in actuality she could have even died from another factor other than what either of us claims.

SirenSanJose – I’m not saying one flash of a camera did the gecko in, even without a flash getting an animal to take pictures is stressful, which is wrong to do when he knew the animal was stressed and add up enough stressful combinations is what does the animal in. Who knows how much other stress he put her through whether intentional or unintentional? As you say my extremely questionable compromised shipping method is what killed the animal is only based off of your assumption. You said “I've bought WC/LTC stuff that was shipped overnight, arrived alive, died within a couple of days and I never asked for my money back.” Do you think they died solely from shipping? Then what explains using my method and having uros thrive?

Akonitony – Why I sold her less than the asking price. I put up a price I thought was fair and comparable to other sellers but higher than the price I was willing to accept, that way when people as many do offer a lower price, they are actually paying the price I am ok with selling. Otherwise If I ask 150 people will offer 100 and I have to wait until someone is willing to pay the 150. It’s a way to keep people from low balling you and get the price you want at the same time they think they get a good deal, so both parties win.

Yes I did need to money to pay for a vet bill for my pitbull which I adopted from someone I knew who wanted to give him up because he got demodectic mange. Being I am in school and play football I do not have a full time job so I have had to make some sacrifices and thin my collection to cover his vet cost.

I nerver used flagyl, only panacur which doses were prescribed by a vet that specializes in reptiles.

Akonitony – you said “I think we all know many times the customer is full of horse puckey (not saying that is the case here at all)” so after looking more thoroughly into the customer claiming it sat 2 days in the cold, I realized your right on again this time being the customer is full of horse puckey as the package was in Santa Ana, California the next day, it just took them a day to process it through and got it to Irvine, California the next morning.

So people there was never 2 days spent in cold weather. As I’ve said, being the gecko died days later I do not believe it was the shipping delay that did her in.

 

[Nathan Tow-Arnett]

Rcarichter you said “you are well aware that they are among the most fragile creatures that any of us have every dealt with. You are also aware, I'm sure, that each year, Madagascar closes the door a bit further on exportation of these gems, and they are becoming very hard to obtain. It's very disturbing that you experimented with cold shipping on these delicate creatures.”

Yes I am aware, which is why I am doing the experiments because on the road we are going now only leads to extinction with uroplatus. Check this pdf out

http://globalgeckos.com/articles/file_The Plight of the Uroplatus_20101110152734.pdf

All the geckos I’ve used were in established and thriving conditions as a “baseline” so to make my results more accurate when conducting an experiment and ensure their best survival, plus using a high stressed or unhealthy gecko will only hurt their chances of survival much less give me inaccurate data. I have not had any test subjects die as of yet without heat packs and I don’t intend on pushing the limits beyond what I’ve used for 2 day shipping. I have had a small number die because of using heat packs unfortunately in overnight shipping only so therefore I recommend not using them. I got a strophurus taenicauda shipped to me a week after black Friday a couple years ago that I received DOA because of a heat pack and the seller shipped me one without a heat pack and I still have him today. I have shipped out anoles with heat packs in cold weather to warmer areas and the buyers sent me pictures of DOA which I replaced shipping without a heat pack and all arrived alive without any complaints.

You also said “Two days in a box in perfect conditions could easily stress them to death.” I can’t say no that’s not possible, but from my experience I have never had any of my sikorae die I used in 2 day shipping under perfect conditions. I have recorded that the geckos I used in my experiments handled shipping better in lower temps than higher temps though. Another thing I’ve recorded is the ones which I put back into their enclosure with the surroundings they were familiar with acted as if nothing happened and went about their normal activities that night. Now the ones which I put into an enclosure with surroundings unfamiliar, showed signs of stress and either tried frantically getting out or were very cautious about exploring the first night. So the geckos shipped under the same conditions had different reactions just due to change of environment.

Reason I am doing this is I think people blame shipping too much for why these geckos die and over look that even when they try to meet what they think are the proper conditions that it might be the conditions (visual surroundings, not enough room, a consistent temp or humidity difference, water availability, diet change, lighting hours) that are off too much for the gecko to feel comfortable or get adjusted causing them a constant stress and eventually death. I believe much more research needs to be put into what affects these geckos the most that puts them into a down spiral. Overnight or 2 day shipping is the least concern as it is something that is done and over with in a very short time frame, it’s the long term or permanent care that needs to be better refined through research and not just assumed what would be ideal as peoples’ opinion of ideal is different. Far too many uros have died through the means now, so even though you find my shipping experiments disturbing, my results have shown it really isn’t as bad as your thinking and it will lead to better knowledge about the species that will over all benefit their captive survival when I get enough substantial data to support this theory and my other theories about sikoraes specifically and maybe uros as a whole. So people hopefully will get over this notion a heat pack is essential when really a well-insulated box works best. Just because they are shipped when the temp outside is in the 40’ or 50’s they are not solely exposed to those temps for long durations if even at all.

You also said "Most of the WC's have died in quarantine" This may be another key issue for people keeping them? I have always kept mine in a quarantine enclosure as large and decorated as the permanent enclosure which is more work but I think benefits the new import better. (I'm not saying you don't) but from what I've read and heard people talk about quarantine, the set up is not very elaborate because it is temporary again leading to my stance that paying attention to every detail and not over looking them has more an affect than shipping.

You also said "From what I understand, shipments of uros arrive to distributors in the USA, many DOA." Do you think that is shipping that kills them or the conditions they were kept in until they got shipped here? I think that is a major source of the problem as many WC I have purchased have been dehydrated or under weight from starving. Most of which I can nurse back to full health. Unfortunately not all.

 

[bullies&balls]

don't know either one of you. VERY SIMPLE :

1 shipping 2 days nop heat in the cooler months DUMB, LAZY, CHEAP

Yup, that about covers it.

 

[houseape57]

I am a postal highway contractor and have been for the last 36 years. Very seldom do any packages go into the heated buildings, just letters. All parcels are left on "the dock" or in the trucks backed up to the overhead doors until they are unloaded onto an unheated dock. The only items that are taken into the heated building are the letters and flats. Once the boxes are sorted they are put onto other trucks to be taken to their post offices. Then they sit in the unheated vestibles until the employees get there to pull them into the building.
Just remember that this pertains to the hot summer months as well, so those boxes sit in the back of trucks that get over 120*.
UPS and Fedex employees do look at the writting on the boxes, there are special rooms for live animals to either keep them warm or cool until put onto the trucks for delivery.
Just wanted to clear this up. I am a breeder of Leopard geckos and even though I work for the USPS I would never, ever use them for live animals, period.
My .02c

 

[kerrek]

I’m back! (Ed Clark wrong again)

Kerrek – You said “When 95% of people will disagree with you but you are smarter than the rest of us.” Yes that is my reason for doing my shipping experiments. I believe it is accurate to say the 95% you speak of have not done their own research into shipping with USPS and are forming their opinion off an assumption or something they read about a bad experience. Here is the fallacy in that thought process, with a perfect example, now I’m sure you’ve heard of the Eyelash Viper (Bothriechis schlegelii)? Well it was believed the species was strictly nocturnal until disproven by herpetologist Geoff Sorrell who was featured on NatGeo’s Snake Wranglers. Though still largely nocturnal, he was able to film that the vipers will take prey during the day. So he just proved the 95% who thought otherwise wrong.

.

I have done all the experimenting I will ever do with the post office. They suck. Its why they are losing so much money every year. They have lost my cricket shipment from a producer that is less than 1&1/2 hours from me 3 times this year. It got so bad he had to get ups as a shipping option because of it. About 10 years ago they also lost a chameleon shipment for two days and I had to drive 50 miles to a sorting facility at midnight to pick them up when they finally found them. Both of them died shortly after recieving them.

Also you never answered my question did you or did you not change the shipping from what was agreed on?

 

[deborahbroadus]

I've also worked in shipping while living in Norfolk, VA...some time ago. I am aware of shipping methods and what happens behind the scenes, so stating that something was in a warmer clime/even proving it was in a warm state and the temps at that state OUTSIDE do not confirm that the animal, itself, was in that temp.

So...we have to go by the facts at hand: Shipping more than 2 days without a heat pack in "discouraged" temps.

 

[deborahbroadus]

dang...not more than two days...specific period of time was earlier mentioned....(for those of you that haven't actually read the thread, yet.)