Need Help!! Jeffrey Grass has burned me good!

[Gecko_Den]

Crucify him! Crucify him!

Rofl some heart you have Shannon and any one else with a cold heart.... However I do agree on one thing tho.. they should have made arrangements for returning em...

It could be a new seller??? I didn't check... oops you caught me I didn't check.....

Check FIRST about this guy... Don't use USPS ever again... use FedEx....

Jake

Further proof that a "wake and bake" followed by message board postings is never a good idea......

 

[Chris@TSE]

agrees

 

[ShannanD25]

I wouldn't say I have a cold heart. Actually, it would be a warm heart considering the fact I couldn't get those dragons stuffed in a box for 8 days out of my head all night. Cold hearted to the people(seller and buyer) who caused their undo suffereing? Yes. Maybe I shouldn't have name called but I simply wrote down in words what alot of people were thinking. I should try to be more politcally correct I suppose.
Do people who treat animals like a "product" like someone else said, get me upset...Yes.
Do people who put money value before the saftey and well being of any animal get me upset, Yes.
Animals can't speak for themselves. They can't knock on the box and say hey postman, we are thirsty and hungry in here. They can't grab a pen and write on the box, easily, Live Lizard. They can't call on their cell phones to the post office they are being held out and say hey buddy, there are live critters in here and we really want out.
A human can do all this. And neither party involved did.
So that has me "cold hearted" and wanting to crucify those invovled in this. Regardless if this is a scam or not. It is the Dragon's welfare not the $400 that has me very bothered.

 

[Dan Scolaro]

It is quite possible that those dragons are brumating in that box. The seller perhaps wanted him to send them so he can avoid to accept them, hence he can point the finger later like it is being pointed by non-basis individuals now.

 

[shrap]

It is quite possible that those dragons are brumating in that box. The seller perhaps wanted him to send them so he can avoid to accept them, hence he can point the finger later like it is being pointed by non-basis individuals now.

So what you are saying Dan, and please correct me if I am wrong, is that you too think it is ok to ship animals when there has been no arrangements made what so ever? When in fact there had been ZERO communication from the receiving party about about shipping them at all? You think it is ok to put animals in a box and ship them out and just HOPE someone is there to pick them up?

And no one here is saying the actions of the seller are ok. No one has even hinted that. The seller can point all the fingers he wants about the buyer shippng them back, but that has nothing to do with what the SELLER did wrong.

Yet the buyer has responded and is being questioned about the poor choices he admittedly made. This is not about attacking him, it is about hoping that he understands the error he made on his part and hopefully learns from it.

 

[W.Wedeking]

Yes, the seller made a mistake

but it doesn't sound like he was really given the chance to correct it.

Then, before the seller had the chance to sort things out and correct the situation, the buyer took it upon himself to send the dragons back via USPS (I won't go into what I think of that alone ) WITHOUT any confirmation from the seller that he knew the animals were on their way back. In my opinion, that is just plain irresponcible.

If the animals are not alive, don't expect a refund.

 

[Dan Scolaro]

Shrap:

I respect your opinion, however think some people may have assumed incorrectly that the customer lacked common sense.

So what you are saying Dan, and please correct me if I am wrong, is that you too think it is ok to ship animals when there has been no arrangements made what so ever? No, it is not ok to ship animals when there has been no arrangements under normal circumstances. This was not a normal circumstance, and he responded reasonably to being robbed. I do not anticipate that someone being robbed will react correctly in every aspect.

When in fact there had been ZERO communication from the receiving party about about shipping them at all? You think it is ok to put animals in a box and ship them out and just HOPE someone is there to pick them up? No, but under these particular circumstances, I think his actions were reasonable. Further, as you may be aware, it's a common criminal ploy to ignore the phone or email the day's following a sale. The customer was very smart in this matter and did nothing unreasonable considering the circumstances.

And no one here is saying the actions of the seller are ok. No one has even hinted that. The seller can point all the fingers he wants about the buyer shippng them back, but that has nothing to do with what the SELLER did wrong. I did not imply that anyone said the sellers actions were OK? I still believe that the seller intentionally ignored his emails hoping the customer would send them back and they would die as the seller would use that as leverage to say his computer was broke, he was sick, and walk away clean like he WILL in these circumstances. The seller is a scam artist period.

Yet the buyer has responded and is being questioned about the poor choices he admittedly made. This is not about attacking him, it is about hoping that he understands the error he made on his part and hopefully learns from it. Like I said, I do not think he made a poor choice considering these particular circumstances with being robbed, even if the customer has admitted they were poor, I do not see anyone reacting any differently.

What I noticed here is that people are so quick to knock this poor guy down, but not many have suggested an option if he held on to the animals. How long do you think he should have held on to the animals? Until the guy never responds? Send them when? Do what when? He did the right thing considering the extenuating circumstances. Oh, he could have came to the BOI and sought help. He did, and now has people trying to tell him something he already knows. That is no help. That is only an insult to his intelligence.

 

[shrap]

Dan,

I think we are looking at it from two different perspectives. I personally put the well being of the animals before the business end of things. Be it right, wrong or somewhere in between, that is just how I am.

With that being said I do not think it is right, ever, to ship helpless animals under ANY circumstances, when there has not been shipping arrangements made by BOTH parties.

We just have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Dan Scolaro]

Sam:

Sound response, but I was not implicating to put business before the animals, I just think the customer thought and hoped the seller might take them back in his desperation for a refund, and his actions were not so unreasonable considering the circumstances that he felt he had been robbed and was being ducked.

However such, lets forge ahead and get to the meat of his problem vice knocking him for his mistakes.

What can he do if they come back and are in brumation and they are not dead? Hope the one with the leg does not get attacked by crickets and get its arm chewed off and limps in a circle for the rest of its life? Hum, that one may already be dead and not know it yet simply because it is injured and cannot get away from the crickets, or has been eaten already, so may have an illness preventing it from ever getting away from the crickets. I suggest if they are alive, to take good care of the animals and contact the proper authorities that deal with Internet fraud and fish and game and pursue a small claims if the dealer does not show face again. Even better, keep them healthy, get your money in court, and tell the judge you are attached to them, and he or she may let you keep them. He may win and walk away with two free dragons.

And what does he do if they are dead? File suite and inform the proper authorities and learn from it, but ramming it down his throat is not going to make it easier for him.

Either way, the seller is going to dance down the road on his two good legs proud to have robbed this guy out of 400 dollars. And he will scam again unless reported properly. Heck, he will scam again regardless.

Heck, some proud member of this forum asked me to join a while ago. The guy does not know that I am informed that this same guy was caught robbing my friends tortoise years ago and was prosecuted for it. Small world for everyone. You get what you give in the long run.

 

[Wilomn]

Just to clairify...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wanted to clarify that in my last post I put that he acknowledged that he recieved them last Tuesday, I meant that he knew that they made a delievery attempt. He said he wasn't home.

I e-mailed him at least three times from Friday to Monday to make him aware I was returning them. He never aknowledged the return but knew it was expected due to sending the wrong package. Or at least thats the excuse he told me.

There is nothing I can do if they are being held at his post office and he's not going to pick the package up. Animals shouldn't suffer because of his mistake and that's just another reason he's a bad guy.

Jeff Janes

The box was marked perishable and keep warm. We did not broadcast "live harmless reptiles" on the box. I know the problems involved with that. I called the local post office today and they said they are going to send the package back to me, but I fear it's too late. I sent him several e-mails after I shipped the dragons including the status of the package and questioning him as to why he has not picked them up. He then proceded to ask me yesterday where the dragons were that he sent me! I believe he is playing games with me. He refuses to give me his number or call me. I am upset that he is ignoring my request for my money back and extremely outraged that he is knowingly allowing his animals to die.

Jeff Janes

I sent him an e-mail making him aware of this post. I'm giving him the chance to tell his side of the story. Oh, they dragons were sent out Monday afternoon of last week. They have been in the box for 8 days now unless the tracking confirmation is wrong.

Jeff Janes

When the dragons arrived on a Friday I gave them proper husbandry and care and fed them very well every day before I mailed them back out on Monday. I care about all my herps! I take in rescues on a regular basis and strive to have the healthiest, fattest, dragons around.

I sent the dragons back in the same box heated and insulated box marked perishable and keep warm. I saw a documentary about what some carriers do when they see live anything on the box and I have a personal experience as to why shipping with the post office I do not brodcast the contents. During the Summer I sold clutch of dragons, several different packages went out the same week. I did my research and without shipping anything live before I found out it was perfectly legal to ship via U.S.P.S. and decided to go through them. All but one of 7 packaged didn't make it there by 12 or 3 the next day but arrived same day or second day. I was told by a postal worker that broadcasting live animals only delays the shipping because they usually give it to Fed-Ex to ship when they see that. I took her advice and none of the follow 5 packaged arrived late. So, in my personal experience I would not reccomend labeling a U.S.P.S. priority package with live animals on the box.

I did not wait a week before doing anything about the situation, but I did call U.S.P.S. yesterday. There was nothing that I could do on my end if I was under the impression that he "missed" the delievery so I kept him updated daily on the status on the package and did everything that I knew to get him to accept the delievery. I had no idea that someone who produced something would let them sit at their local post office and die.

There was no pissing contest or duel, I was constantly communicating to him. He barely responded to my messages, wouldn't give me a contact number, or give me a call. His e-mails left me hanging and gave me the impression that he didn't care.

I was given no choice on a shipper and would never use U.S.P.S. for any animal of value. What I mean by that is, use U.P.S. or Fed-Ex if your shipping $400.00 worth of dragons, but if your mailing a normal baby bearded dragon you can't afford to pay $50.00 to ship through U.P.S. and make any money. Again, I contacted him numerous times over that weekend and every day since I shipped the dragons. I copied and pasted daily updates through the post office tracking, begged, pleaded, and urged him to pick up his dragons. On Tuesday he e-mailed me back and acknowledged that he recieved them but the just yesterday he asked where his dragon were. He gave me a sarcastic vibe and I then contacted the post office to find out what was going on. They reassured me that unless he refused the package there was nothing I could do about getting the dragons back any sooner.

Shannon, if you can not clearly see that I'm doing everything I know to do in this situation then something is wrong with you. My intent with typing this message was to get the point across that I realize there is nothing I can do about the dragons but to find out what is the best plan of action to take to at least get my money back.

Jeff Janes

Ok, so the buyer fed them, watered them, returned them properly packed

 

[Chris@TSE]

I wonder how many times the same scenario will have to be explained here..... lol


Its obvious the seller dropped the ball here. And its MORE than obvious that the buyer wanted to return them, contacted them a few times via email about it, and then without receiving any sort of confirmation or response in return, shipped them anyways!

This is also, not good. No excuse either. Any number of things could have happened. You can be assured im not backing up the sellers original actions, but the buyer should have known better. Instead, he was simply motivated by his desire to receive a refund and figured if he had posession of said animals he would be entitled. He did not count on them not being recieved.....


I'm fairly certain no more portraits are needed here.... Lets move on.

 

[Wilomn]

Sorry, hit the submit button too soon.

To continue-

The buyer did everything right, except recieve acknowledment from the seller that he knew the dragons were coming back

HOWEVER, look at the dates. The seller KNEW the lizards were sitting at the post office THE DAY AFTER THE BUYER SENT THEM. There can be no doubt that anything that happened to them is the FAULT of the seller. HE KNEW they were at the post office and he LEFT THEM THERE.

THE SELLER IS THE ONLY ONE IN THE WRONG HERE.

The buyer could have used a different shipper, he could have waited forever to hear from the seller, he could have avoided all of this if he had gotten a phone number first. All of that is irrelevant.

The seller ROBBED the buyer. The seller KNEW the lizards were sitting at the post office ONE DAY after the buyer shipped them.

Am I the only one that sees this?

 

[Chris@TSE]

I agree, and see it perfectly. But I also notice that the buyer gave the seller the opportunity to do such a thing by not recieving a confirmation before shipping. Granted, we know he was well aware they were at the post office, but it still does not make the action of shipping without a mutual understanding right and I'm sure you can agree. Both parties are in the wrong, but the seller should be SHOT.

 

[Wilomn]

I agree, and see it perfectly. But I also notice that the buyer gave the seller the opportunity to do such a thing by not recieving a confirmation before shipping. Granted, we know he was well aware they were at the post office, but it still does not make the action of shipping without a mutual understanding right and I'm sure you can agree. Both parties are in the wrong, but the seller should be SHOT.

Yup, the buyer went off half cocked. But, the seller did acknowledge that he knew they were there

In THIS particular case, not as an in general rule, the buyer should be obsolved of any blame for any harm that comes to the lizards. He did NOT have all his ducks in a row, but he hit a homerun anyway, to mix a few metaphores.

The seller KNEW they were there. The seller LEFT them.

 

[BallPyFan]

HOWEVER, look at the dates. The seller KNEW the lizards were sitting at the post office THE DAY AFTER THE BUYER SENT THEM. There can be no doubt that anything that happened to them is the FAULT of the seller. HE KNEW they were at the post office and he LEFT THEM THERE.

THE SELLER IS THE ONLY ONE IN THE WRONG HERE.

The buyer could have used a different shipper, he could have waited forever to hear from the seller, he could have avoided all of this if he had gotten a phone number first. All of that is irrelevant.

The seller ROBBED the buyer. The seller KNEW the lizards were sitting at the post office ONE DAY after the buyer shipped them.

Am I the only one that sees this?

No, I tried to make that point 2 or 3 pages back. Once the seller was aware that the lizards were at his local post office AND REFUSED TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT the blame falls square on him. And I honestly don't see where the buyer didn't give the seller a chance to "make it right" when the seller said "Ooops I sent the wrong package." If it was the wrong package, wouldn't the seller want it back immediately to send it to the "right" buyer? That is what I would think. Maybe I'm demented, but I would think the seller would insist on immediate return of it so he could straighten it out with all customers involved in the box "mixup."

This seller stinks to high heaven on this deal, and Chris why would you waste a perfectly good bullet when there are slower and more painful methods?

 

[Wilomn]

I think I'm starting to like this girl. A lot.

Had me rotflmao.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

I respect your opinion, however think some people may have assumed incorrectly that the customer lacked common sense..

He did not mark the box

He did the right thing considering the extenuating circumstances.
..

He did not mark the box

Oh, he could have came to the BOI and sought help. He did, and now has people trying to tell him something he already knows. That is no help. ..

He said he did not know to mark the box.

That is only an insult to his intelligence..

He said the post office did not tell him to mark the box. That is a insult to our intelligents.

What could he have done? He could have marked the box. Sent them by a different shipper.

Or after he called the post office and they said we are holding the box for five days he could have said

Dear Mr. postman I violated the law and sent animals in that package.They are going to die.

I know nobody is going to do that

But did I mention he could have marked the package

 

[Laura Fopiano]

Both seller and buyer broke the law!!!

The violation of the lacey act
The Act places restrictions on persons offering guiding and outfitting services and licenses or permits. A person who for money or other consideration offers or provides guiding, outfitting or other services, or a hunting or fishing license or permit, for the illegal taking, acquiring, receiving, transporting or possessing of fish or wildlife is deemed to have conducted a sale in violation of the Act. A person who obtains these services for money or other consideration is deemed to have conducted a purchase in violation of the Act.

The Act also establishes false labeling offenses. It is illegal to make or submit a false record, account, label or false identification of any fish, wildlife or plant that has been or will be (1) imported, exported, transported, sold, purchased or received from a foreign country, or (2) transported in interstate or foreign commerce. § 3372.

The possible penalty
Felony criminal sanctions are provided for violations involving imports or exports, or violations of a commercial nature in which the value of the wildlife is in excess of $350. A misdemeanor violation was established, with a fine of up to $10,000 and imprisonment of up to 1 year, or both. Civil penalties up to $10,000 were provided. However, the Criminal Fines Improvement Act of 1987 increased the fines under the Lacey Act for misdemeanors to a maximum of $100,000 for individuals and $200,000 for organizations. Maximum fines for felonies were increased to $250,000 for individuals and $500,000 for organizations.
(Taken from a google search of the lacey act of 1981.)

 

[Dan Scolaro]

Dennis:

Dennis:

Sorry bro, my microscope is not as tuned nor was it on when I read about this. And I cannot recall but do not think any of your remarks lead me to believe you thought he lacked common sense.

However such, it is common sense that he is going to say anything to defend these attacks on him, much less, it is common sense that he perhaps did not mark the box because he had a reasonable reason for not doing so. What that reason is was his business, and not ours, and has not one thing to do with the two bearded dragons he was robbed with, nor the resolution to this problem.

Yea, anyone can call the post office and tell them there is a reptile in the box. They perhaps may kick the box out the door in the sun. Who knows?

Of course he knows that he could have used a different shipper. I bet he thought about that option a million times before he sent it via post office. It was his intention to ensure it was delivered so he could get his refund. On top of him potentially loosing his 400 bucks, I would not expect him to spend additional dollars for a better shipper. Man, put yourself in his shoes for a moment and drop the microscope.

Hey, at least this guy did not stomp the dragons and send them back with a Marlboro sticking out of their arsses as some might have.

Oh, did I mention Spanish inquisition before?

I bet he never comes back to the BOI for assistance again.

And I bet he never forgets to label any box as long as he lives.

And I bet that particular scam artist is reading this and will do it again within a month. Heck why not? Between the lines, he has so much support from so many readers.

 

[riverjop]

OK I want to preface this with , I think the seller is a "scumbag"! But just possibly he might have been gone, He could have been at his aunt mable's in Queens! Or he could have had a computer problem....could have! A more likely story would be that he was in Jail! The point is there are allot of possibilities, and unless the buyer and the seller are on the same page shipping could be detrimental to the health of the shipped!
And also let us not forget the seller has a name!, and it is Jeffrey Grass ([email protected])

And after reading this thread & the other ones I can safely say that JEFFREY GRASS is a scamer!