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New Mountain Horned Dragon... questions.

bullfrog100000

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We just got a female WC Mountain Horned Dragon. We were at the show in St. Louis and saw them. They were just sitting on the guys shoulders looking cute. This one was show a little aggression, puffing up and was really cute. Started asking about them and the guy at the booth said they are "room tempature" lizards, so no UTH, or hassle with heating. They said, mist them and have stuff for them to climb on and they are incestavores. Sounded easy so we got one. Well... asked about them at the pet store and they said she needs running water.
Currently she's in a Kritter Keeper with mulch type bedding, water dish, wood to climb and a rope to climb. She like to hand on the side of the keeper. She's going into a 29 Tall tank tonight.

What else do we need to know???
She's wild caught and found some little mite thing crawling on me after handling her last night.
What substrate? What does anyone use to treat for mites, etc? What specific foods? Anything else?

Thanks for any help. She was sort of a spur of the moment purchase... but she's cool. Still has an attitude, which we like. :)
 
Hello

Hello,

Well, I will try to help as much as possible. I do not have any Mountain horned dragons.
I hope you don't have too much trouble with her as wild caught dragons alot of times are so stressed out that they do not make it.
What size of kritter keeper is she in right now?
Oh never mind, you are putting her into a 29 gallon tank tonight, ok that is fine for now. How big is she then?
Do you have a temp gun or a digital probe to measure her temps with? Do you have any UVB lighting for her?
The recommended temps are usually 75-84 or so. I would not exceed 85 as they quickly dehydrate. Their humidity needs to be 70-80% & they need a drip type drinking system kind of like a chameleon needs as they do not drink from standing water. They love to climb so the tank will eventually need to be a tall one more so than a long one. Plenty of limbs & branches with maybe a waterfall or something in there for her.
I would use at least a reptisun 10 for her. They do need to maintain strong bones so they cannot do that without D3 synthesization which happens when exposed to UVB.
She will need supplementation as well. Calcium with D3 several times per week to help keep her bones strong, too.
You can use ground coconut bedding, or soil that is free of perlite or fertilizer. It can get muddy if you keep it too wet so you will have to keep an eye on it. I wouldn't use any type of bark because that doesn't tend to hold humidity very well.
I think that is it. Amber is on this area & hopefully will come along to help more. She breeds them & is doing very well with her stock.

I hope this helps a little bit.

Tracie
 
Hello

Hello,

Ah sorry I meant Angie will be on! I will PM her so she can read through your thread to help out for you.

Tracie
 
MHD care

Hi...the first thing you should do is google FroggieB and read her site. She is the foremost expert on MHDs, but recently had to let all her dragons go because of other commitments, she is leaving her site up to help people. She has care sheets on there and a wealth of information. I doubt you will have questions after reading her information but if you do, just post again on here or PM me. I'll be glad to try to help and I know people who have been into MHDs for several years and they are always willing to help.

I'm not sure about the external parasites, (maybe someone else can chime in on that) I think you would treat them the same way any other reptile would be treated for them...I don't know about this but one of the breeders I know that has many different reptiles used to wipe them down with Novalsan - do not get it in their mouth or eyes. You will have to sterilize all the cage accessories or they will continue. I would keep your MHD on papertowels until you have all that under control. After you're good with the bugs you can put her on bed-a-beast, coconut bark, etc. I stopped using those and switched to ceramic tile in their big enclosure and I have plants in soil and an empty pot with dirt where I dump the worms so they can dig them up if they want one. I'm getting a box with organic soil ready to go in with them also.

If there are external bugs there are probably internal parasites. If you can go to a vet for a fecal I think you should do that and get meds for the specific parasites they identify. I give mine a dose of Panacur and MTZ as a precaution every 4-5 months.

I keep mine in about 80% humidity with running water using a water fountain that I completely disinfect with Novalsan at least one time a week. You can use a bubbler in a dish - air pump and airstone for aquariums to keep moving water and increase humidity. You can also use a dripper from the top and let it drip into a dish, this can be simple like a Styrofoam cup with a pin hole in the bottom or you can put ice cubes on the top and let them melt and drip down for an emergency fix. They absolutely have to have running water...they will not drink from standing water.

I use 5.0 UVB on the adults and 10.0 on the babies. I just got a Mega Ray UVB for the adults and they seem to like it and appear to be more active. I keep a regular bulb on them too, just to heat up a basking area for them. They are under-canopy dwellers and usually don't go much over 4 feet off the ground in the wild from what I understand. Taller cages are better....if you use a 29 tall you might have to cover part of the screen top with plastic to help keep the humidity up but it should do fine for now.

I dust with Sticky Tongue Farms Minerall 3-4 x week and herptivite the other days. They eat earthworms, nightcrawlers, mealworms, superworms, crickets, and phoenix worms. I don't dust earthworms, nightcrawlers or phoenix worms. I gutload the crickets, mealworms and superworms. I mist in the morning when the lights come on and that is when I feed, that seems to be when most of them eat. Toss in a couple of dusted crickets and see if there is any interest. If you have trouble getting your MHD to eat let me know, I've fed with supplements and Fluker's Insectivore Rescue powder and baby food to keep a sick one going.

I normally mist in the morning, at lunch, after work and around 8:00 before the lights go out for the babies. I would do that with a new WC also.

The first MHDs I got were WC and I named them Pandora and Marius. The lady at the reptile store where had purchased a bearded dragon and a chameleon told us that these lizards could live in a open mesh cage with something to climb on and be misted a couple of times a day. That is so wrong! When I got them home they seemed thirsty so I ran water in the sink and the poor things buried their heads and gulped. No telling how long they had been without. Marius died the next day. I spent about $400.00 at the vet trying to keep Pandora alive. I scoured the Internet and found a forum for MHDs and started posting. I tried everything and she lived for almost 2 months and then she died. I was so disgusted by the treatment these fine creatures receive being jerked out of the wild and transported thousands of miles, held at the importer, then sent to a distributor and then to pet shops where the people are totally ignorant of how to care for them that I decided to make it my mission to help stop some of the WC trade by starting a captive breeding program.

Good luck with your new MHD....I'm on here all the time if you need any help....just let me know. Angie
 
Just wanted to let you know I read thru this really quick... I've got to go to work for a few hours then I'll be home. I think I'll try putting her in the sink maybe when I get home... probably a mini soak would be good and have water dripping.
Called a vet yesterday... reptile vet...a fecal is $30. and exam is $40. She hasn't pooped, or ate. Got her Sunday.
Write more later...
 
Hello

Hello,

Great, thanks Angie!!
I hope that your MHD will be ok. Definitely hydration is a huge issue. Keep us posted on her.

Tracie
 
Well... my gf tried doing the water running a bit in the sink thing... not interested. But she did feed her some concoction with a dropper. It's something she's used with other lizards she's had in the past... herp vit., water, little bit of wet cat food and little bit of corn syrup. A reptile vet told her about this a few years back, said it's good for any meat eater-type. The MHD took it just fine. We just knew if she wasn't drinking/eating she sure won't last long.
We are moving her today into the bigger tank.
Since she hasn't been interested in crickets... got some mealworms. I know some say they aren't that great, etc., but at this point we just want her to eat.
 
Not eating for a while after a relocation is not unusual for a WC MHD. They are stressed and they like to be left alone to stay in one place hanging out....if you cover the sides of the enclosure with some papertowels it will feel more comfortable. If you can post a pic I'll tell you what I think about how it looks compared to others that I've seen. It may be fine and just not eating for a few days because of the stress.

How's the color? Is there a lot of dark and does it have a dark mask around it's eyes?

Cat food is not good for them....I used something similar but I used kiwi flavor gatorade and they love that...and veal baby food is the best because it's much easier on their stomach...I mixed it with Pedialyte to thin it. You also might try dangling an earthworm or nightcrawler in front of it....they will smack their lips and grab it if interested...almost all of them will eat those.

Like I said, not eating for several days after a relocation, even something as simple as a new enclosure, is not unusual. I moved my adults to a big enclosure and it's been 2 months and they are still not happy. I still have to hand feed them....but maybe they just like that... ;-)

Good luck....Angie
 
We don't have her in the new bigger tank yet, she still in a Kritter Keeper... I know, not the greatest thing. Had to work extra shifts and haven't had the kind of time to do some things.
She is dark, but it's a uniform color... there were others we saw with her that looked almost black, and a couple lighter. No dark mask. She looks really similar in color to many of the pics I've seen on Kingsnake of CBB. Can't find the camera or I'd take a picture.
She has been a little less aggressive, not calm by any means. Feel like that's a good sign.
We'll pick up some baby food tomorrow, and the Pedialyte and hit a bait shop for some worms. Yummy. What kind of amount of food mix, what ratios, etc? Today she got a half dropper full of the mixture I told you about.
What type of dosage of Panacur? Do you need a prescription?
The base of her tail and hip bone area doesn't look thin at all, so that's good. Looks like the humidity is good in her Keeper too, and the temps good based on what you all have told us.
It's really too bad that A. all these seem to be WC and really how many new owners are going to go to the trouble of trying to figure it out, and B. a lot of sellers tell you it's a "room temp" lizard, just needs misting and an open air cage. Such a dis-service to the animals. I'll go look up who we got her from and let you know. We'll probably email them and give them correct care info... wonder if they'll care or pass it on (not the same "easy" pet when you find out the moving water and humidity, which is how they were selling them... an "easy" lizard), oh and that they might not start eating really easily because they are WC.
 
Hello

Hello,

How are things going? I hope she is doing a bit better today.
The amount of food should be approximate to her weight, but do you know her weight? Usually, around 1cc or ml per 50 grams of bodyweight. So, if she weighs 100 grams, you can give 4 cc's or ml's. A half a dropper isn't a whole lot & she probably needs a bit more than that.
Do you have a vet around who could run a quick fecal for you? I hesitate to have you deworm her if she doesn't need it though panacur is relatively safe.
How do her stools look? If you want help on dosing the panacur, let me know & I can dose it for you. No problem but let's make sure she would benefit from it first. :)
Angie could probably give you more of a detailed description on what to feed.

Tracie
 
WC dis-service

I absolutely agree....but when they pay $10 for them and can move them for at least double their money quickly - then move on to a new show - never to be seen in the same location again, who cares, huh? Rumor has it that the skulls of the dead ones (who die in transport on in holding) can be sold for $35.00 to freaks so they actually make out better if they are dead. Like I said that's an internet rumor that I found when I was first researching them a few years ago.

The lady that sold me Pandora and Marius went out of business shortly after I made her refund the money for Marius because he died the next day and then went up there with all FroggieB's caresheet info and confronted her. Apparently there were a lot of other confrontations involved because she was a jobber acting like a pet shop and got busted by Fish and Game...last I heard the State Comptroller was looking for her for sales tax evasion. May I only add that I sincerely hope she gets exactly what she deserves as she abandoned animals in her shop when she ran away. Luckily they were found by a "silent" partner who checked to see what was going on and all of them were rescued, although it took a while for some to get healthy again.

As far as the mix of baby food...get veal (preferred), chicken or turkey. Use the pedialyte to thin it to a consistency that you can get in a dropper or feeding syringe. If it will just eat it by lapping it up that would be great but not probable. If you rub the sides of their mouths they will usually open up and some of them will bite you at that point. When they open shove the dropper in and give them a small amount...take it out and let them eat it. If they are really hungry when you offer again they will normally take it willingly. If you can't get the mouth open use the stick part of a q-tip between their lips and hold the q-tip ends and apply light pressure, they will open up....leave the q-tip pressed against the corners of their mouth (go easy) and drop some food in - remove the q-tip at that point. Don't force too much or you'll cause aspiration pneumonia. You can soak her in the Pedialyte - it only comes in big bottles around here so you might as well use as much as you can because you aren't supposed to keep an open container very long - that's on the information on the bottle so read that.

I would try to give no more than 3 cc at any one feeding if it is taken willingly. Don't force more than a couple of mouthfulls if they won't take it because of the aspiration issue.

I will have to look at the doseage information on the Panacur. You can get it from a feed store - they sell it for horses. The vet can also sell you some but probably won't without a fecal unless you have a reptile relationship with them. I think you can get MTZ at the fish department at a petstore in a capsule or tablet form.

Keep me posted.....Angie
 
weight

If you have a scale weigh your MHD...usually a WC adult will weigh somewhere between 60 and 80 grams, depending on hydration, fat pads, etc....my adults weigh between 90 - 100 grams.

Angie
 
Ok, don't know weight... need to get a scale. Sounds like she needs a bit more food, we'll get the right stuff today.
The beardie we got at the same time, from an amazing breeder by the way, eats anything and everything. That's the difference between CBB and WC, among others.
She hasn't pooped so I can't take a fecal to the vet. If we took her there could they get a sample?
She opens her mouth just fine when you rub the sides... it's really cute.
Sent an email off the the seller we got her from... Konza Zoological Supply. They actually are at the KC show regularly supposedly. We let them know about the care issues and sent a link to the FroggieB site... hopefully they will care and pass that info on when they sell one.
Stuck at work til 10pm tonight, with a quick break... so probably no new tank again today. Sigh...
 
Fed her again this morning... same mix as yesterday... she's figured out not to open her mouth so readily. LOL. Got the better stuff so we can feed her Angie's mixture. Also put some meal worms in her bowl... wasn't interested initially, but we'll see when we check on her.
 
MHD Poop

Hey guys,

MHDs only poop every couple of days or so...it looks like one of those short thick tootsie rolls with a bit of urate on it...their urate is much smaller than the BD...as is their poop....if you got the earthworms try dangling one in front of her face...maybe she will start smacking and eat it. When you get the babyfood she's gonna like that...so she'll want that instead of food. Don't let her get you trained....

Angie
 
Fed her the new mix again, did yesterday also. Soaked her yesterday & today. She did not eat her mealworms yesterday or today. No poop yet.Still cranky when you pick her up but she calms down. Almost went to sleep in my hand. She's pretty darn cute... hope she comes around to eating/drinking on her own...
Couple more questions...
1. the horns on her "eyebrows" are gone... the people we got her from said they grow back. True?
2. is she a more solitary or social lizard? Would she be happier with another female lizard with her?
Thanks for all the help so far.
 
Hello

Hello,

It sounds like your girl is hanging in there & eating for you! Do weigh her so I can help you get the appropriate dosage of panacur for you, ok?
Great she is staying hydrated right now. I hope that she keeps on improving for you. She almost fell asleep in your hand, that is so cute. :)
You can also get panacur from www.beautifuldragons.com too.

Tracie
 
horns and social behavior

It is an accepted fact that the horns will not grow back. Pandora had horns and beautiful spikes and they were intact when she died. Diablo had red horns and spikes and the little devil was so mean and thrashed around so bad he lost one horn at the pet store before we left and the other in his enclosure shortly after coming home. Bruja never had horns. 2Toe was a baby when I got her...no horns...but it looks like she's gettting some now at over a year old. The forum concensus is that I'm hallicunating. The 10 wk old babies all have horn nubs so I guess they come in that young and if they are gone then they are not supposed to grow back but I'll still watching 2Toes head!

They are pretty solitary animals...Most of the information that I've read about them observed in the wild said they just kind of hang out by themselves. All the babies have kind of paired up but I think that is so they can look out in 2 directions for predators because they are so small. I have 2 females and 1 male together - they don't seem to care one way or the other if the rest of them are around. Sometimes they hang out together close to each other but most of the time they stake out a place of their own and each one stays in their own territory. Seems like the only time they really pay attention to each other is when they are going for the same food item...which hasn't happened since the enclsoure move :-(.

Angie

I think she will be fine by herself. Are you sure you have a female? Post pics so I can see...
 
Hello

Hello,

Yes, definitely post some pics. Oh is she missing her horns? That is too bad. Poor girl.
I agree with Angie definitely she will be perfectly fine by herself. I hope that she is doing better today. Does she seem to enjoy her slurried food so far?

Tracie
 
hi there,
First I want to be sure and say thanks both of you for all your help and advice! It was well needed.
Well we weighed her today, she weighs 61 grams. She is about 13 inches long. Just to be clear she wasn't eating willingly by any means. Today (Sun.) after forcing some food, the second round she finally gave in a little and let food into her mouth from the edge of her lips. I put a wax worm in her mouth she tried not to eat it somewhat, half fell out after she bit into it and gnawed it a bit... I put the rest in a few minutes later, she didn't much appreciate it but after a few seconds finally swallowed it down. We got some of the flukers "first aid" powder mix and started her on that last night.
Today she finally 'pooped' this am, (Per your description! lol. ) How long is it OK to have the fecal sample for the vet ahead of time? My plan was to refridgerate it. Would this sample we finally got ( Sund., am) be OK to be dropped at the vet mond. morning?
I decided to try the flukers along w/ some of the other stuff . Since I started to notice a little sunkin in look around her tail base and hip bones . So i wanted to add something different. She's a stubborn little thing! Question, When I had my green Iguana's I could put a dropper or syringe past where her breathing opening was at the base of her tongue, when I couldn't get her to cooporate w/ feedings of food ,supplements ,meds, what ever. Is there any reason this can't also be done w/ the mountain?
 
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