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New Mountain Horned Dragon... questions.

Hello

Hello,

The fecal will be fine, just refridgerate it & it will be fine to turn in on monday morning, no problem.
Well, 61 grams & 13 inches is pretty good. She may not be eating on her own willingly just because she is still stressed out. It may take some time for her to feel completely comfortable in her surroundings.
That is fine, you can do that type of assisted feeding with your MHD, no problem. Just make sure you go way back into the throat to miss the glottis. How is she looking, her skin looking pretty good? I hope she is holding her hydration now.
I am really pulling for her!! Did you name her now?

Tracie
 
Yippee!
Tonight I went down to tube feed the MHD . She had a good helping of her mixture she let me put it in her mouth a little easier this time. So I decided to try a bug. I put a wax worm on my shirt ,it started to crawl past her and she snagged it. So I tried a second a few minutes later and she got that one two. I was working on a cricket when company came in and freaked her out a little. But even so thats super good news. !!
Well my girlfriend is obsessive about naming pets asap. I never rush to do that. I have had so many critters in the last 30 years that I know a name will come to me somewhere in the process. Occasionally I have named a pet sooner when it just worked out that way too. Like "Bacon" is our first pastel ball Python's name . He is our first and hopefully the beginning of our breeding team. So he's gonna bring home the bacon! Anyway scary tho it may be there is a little insight into my thinking. So the answer finally is no she nor the beardy have official names yet. Rest assured however that Sylvia will be obsessing about it totally until they are named! G.W.
 
That's excellent....she will start eating on her own now. 61 grams is great for WC, she'll be up to 90+ in no time. I agree that the fecal will be fine in the fridge. Make sure the vet gives you the rate to calculate the meds by weight if you get any so you can adjust it as she gains weight. They really like to perch in their "tree" and wait for the food to crawl by....that way they don't expend any more energy than necessary. By the way....on the tube feeding situation. I haven't done that with any of my lizards. Doesn't bother me with humans but I'm wierd about doing stuff like that to my animals! I don't think you'll have to go that far to get her to eat...sounds like she's on the right track! Great news! Angie
 
Dropped off poop at the vet, for both the Mountain and the Beardie. Don't know if she ate on her own this morning or not... my gf fed her after I went to work. She is really cute, she's getting more used to being handled.
STILL can't find the dig. camera. There is one more place to look... if it's not there we are getting a new one. We want you guess to see her. Need to take pics of everybody and post them.
 
POOP TEST results

Hey again,
Got the results of her fecal, and the Beardies also...

Mountain Horned Dragon...
Multiple parasites
Capillaria
Coccidia
Trichomands
Giardia
Pinworms

Bearded Dragon
Multiple parasites
Coccidia
Trichomonads
Pinworms

Ok.... so what do I do, where do I get it, how much to use for how long?
We have a tentative appt with the vet Wed. He is a herp vet, but not sure how good... have seen some herps he's treated and heard the recommendations and not sure if they were that great or if his recommendations weren't being followed we. Do I really need to see a vet even? I can look an see they have no resp. issues, the vent is nice and clean, etc... I just somehow think if we can treat the parasites ourselves it may not be worth $100 to have the vet look at them and tell us nothing new.
 
Hello

Hello,

I posted on your other topic as well. I just wondered if you had counts on each thing or not?
You need to weigh out the options as to what you want to treat. We are talking 3 different drugs to take for your female dragon & 3 or more for your MHD. That is alot & pretty harsh on the system.
As I said in your other thread, let me know what you decide to do & I can help you figure out what you want to do.
If your female dragon is not showing signs of sickness so much to the point that she wont eat, etc, then you don't absolutely have to take her into the vet. However, I can give you information on getting the necessary drugs. I don't condone self medicating most of the time because so much can go wrong. At least you have gotten a fecal done though so we know what they are afflicted with instead of just guessing. They can be dosed according to their weight.
Think about what you would like to do & let me know. I am sure that Angie could probably help with dosing as well. We are here to help you!

Tracie
 
Hi -

Mountain Horned Dragon...
Multiple parasites
Capillaria
Coccidia
Trichomands
Giardia
Pinworms


Pinworms
- Panacur (fenbendazole) 25 - 50/kg by mouth 1 x day for 4 days and repeat in 10 days
- Albenza (Albendazole) 50 mg/kg once
- Ivermectin - IM not oral

Coccidia
- Albon (sulfadimethoxine)50 mg/kg one time a day for 21-28 days and This bit is from Pet Place and the dose information is from Mader:
-Trimethoprim plus sulfadiazine and trimethoprim plus sulfamethoxazole are the most often-used combinations in veterinary medicine. These are similar in antibiotic function and may be used interchangeably. Trimethoprim-sulfa diazine 30 mg/kg once followed by 15 mg/kg for 21-28 days.

Trichomands ? is this Trichomonas? - if so MTZ

Giardia - MTZ
Capillaria - Benzimidazoles/Ivermectin


I took mine to the vet and he figured the doses and put the mg/kg info on the label. He will refill if I ask for it because he knows I keep a lot of lizards. I sometimes use MTZ and Panacur as a preventative.

With that many types of parasites I think I'd go and let the vet figure it out but I would think that you'll need MTZ, Panacur, and one or two of the others mentioned. It probably depends on the counts.

I'd also start putting acidophilus in the Repti Aid mix you are giving - just mix it right in - I get the kind in a capsule and open it into the mix and stir it in. Oregano oil is a natural antiparasitic, antibacterial and antifungal agent...it's a hot oil so if you were going to use some of that just put the tip of a toothpick in and stir that around.

Most of the doses will be .something/100 gm - I'll get the bottles out and look that up for you if you get Panacur and MTZ on your own. I think I'd go to the vet though. Good luck...Angie
 
Hi there,
Also see vet section thread info...
OK we've worked on this all day once we got the fecal results. The breeder who sold us our Beardy is super super nice. She insisted on sending us all the needed meds,plus the probiotics,and dispensing supplies no charge. we told her she didn't need to because we sort of figured it comes w/ the territory a little. but she said she really works on keeping her pets clean and doesn't feel right about someone having to have this much problem w/ one of hers newly bought. She's sending meds to include for the MHD also. It seems the capillaria and pinworms will be handled by one med. The flagyl w/ handle the trich- and the giardia. of course albon for coccidia. So thats a little less ! She's good about being open to and using alternative supplements and meds. So obviously thats a good thing. Well and just for the record she was clear to say that she would have had a different response to my first phone call about the bloody fecals then an associate who answered the phone. But she had no way of calling me back.
Here's our thinking....We decided since the beardy is larger and by all appearance's and behavior very healthy, and just generally a great big piggy!! That we will treat her per the doses given us by our breeder and the womyn from the "beautiful dragons" site. ( working together on it) We decided since the MHD is not eating and beginning to show some physical signs to take the MHD in to the vet., For recommendations , suggestions. And we'll use our meds probably.. Depends what he says I guess. I understand the idea of self treatment being scary. Which is why I will take the MHD. I've never had one befor and there are some questions. I want to make sure I don't put too much food /liquid what ever into her at a time for one thing! Right now I'm doing about 2/3 of a cc @ a time w/ her. The "first aid" supplement recommended 2.2 cc 's per day spread out. no other direction as to how much to spread it out per the animals size etc...I would like to have the catheter tubes for this so their little throats and lips don't get raw doing all this! I;m sure the MHD already is somewhat. I will be happy to get a little refresher from the vet on some of the administering. Though I have in the past done lots of it myself. i had an Iguana w/ Pneumonia had to work closely w/ my vet (at the time) and among other things, aspirate her lungs w/ a tube for 2 months. Stories abound... At the time vets who knew anything at all about reptiles were nearly non existent, and some of the ones who claimed to know at the time didn't. The one that continued to tell me my female was male the whole time she was becoming more and more impacted was one of my favorite guys. That cost me around 3000.00 by the time it was all over with. Torn uterus, complete hysterectomy, visiting the vet 2 x weekly for the next month or two etc...!!
After that I bothered various zoo's a lot at the time! So I'm OK w/ having to do it though I certainly don't enjoy it! We'll keep the info. updated w/ the girls,,,,,I'll put the recommended meds and doses etc. up to see. Any continued insights are always appreciated!!

The exchange here is great though because the experiences people share here help everybody learn and recognize signs sooner, which can only benefit our pets! I know that if it weren't for people like your selves so much of what is known today wouldn't be! Veterinary colleges don't cover it all any more then medical educations do. Anyway Thank You, Thank You ,again,,,,G.W.
 
Hello

Hello!

I think that is a good idea. Your dragon, she is eating & healthy, I would basically just deworm her, & that is it. Panacur will take care of the pinworms, no problem. So are you going to treat with Flagyl & Albon as well for your dragon too, or just with Panacur?
For your dragon, I would start on the lower end of the Panacur with 25mg/kg once weekly, & then re-evaluate the counts. Sometimes it takes several rounds of treatments to completely get rid of them, or get the counts to acceptable levels.
The Flagyl (MRZ) for minor infestations, you should start with 25mg/kg every 3-4 days.
The Albon can be started with 50mg/kg for 3 days & then, every 48 hours thereafter. This is a more conservative approach as sulfa is extremely hard on the kidneys & is not recommended for dehydrated animals.
Do not use Ivermectin on your reptiles, it is too risky really. It is a livestock medication that really is not designed for reptiles & can quickly become toxic.
Your MHD, well, she is pretty ill. I definitely would not give any Albon to her at all. If she is dehydrated, it will interfere with liver & kidney function & compete for receptors when she is being fed. The Flagyl & Panacur should be safe in small amounts for her.
Veronica from beautiful dragons is a very nice woman. She is a great help. Glad you got hold of her also!

Keep us posted.

Tracie
 
Thanks Tracie,
We got an appt. with the vet... can't remember at the moment if it's tomorrow or Thursday... for the MHD. At that time we'll get the reports for both and know all the counts.
These 3 meds are the ones the breeder is sending us so that is perfect. Also she was saying the Giardia is likely making her feel horrible with intestinal pain, so not wanting to eat. I think that is taken care of by Flagyl so I am sure we'll start there and with the Panacur since pinworms can cause the bloody stools. Coccidia is "normal" in lizard guts unless the amount is too high... so like you all have said, we'll see what the counts are and report back.
We're hoping this vet is good and has actually had experience.
Oh... I think we mentioned we sent an email to the guy who sold us the MHD... basically telling him his description of care was lacking, etc, etc. He wrote back, we can share more later. BUT he said one thing we were wondering about...
He said MHD's are sort of nervous and need time to acclimate more than others and we shouldn't be force feeding her... just let her do it in her own time... ????? We wrote back with something about how long should we let her go without food or water because she was showing signs of dehydration. Wonder how many he has let "acclimate" to later find out they died instead.
 
Hello

Hello,

Great. I agree, the giardia is some nasty stuff for sure! That absolutely needs to be treated for sure with the Flagyl, so, no problems there. I think that alone if taken care of, everything else should clear up pretty quickly with a clean environment that you will be providing for her. I try to do as little drugs as possible on a dehydrated animal. This isn't your fault. The breeder should not have sold a wild caught animal to you, that is just not right.
Well, he is right in the fact that they can be nervous animals, & take a bit to acclimate. However, there has to be a line where you have to cross if they are severly dehydrated & or malnourished. You as the keeper have to decide when to start the assisted feeding. If you go too long, then they die of dehydration. I think you are doing fine, you have to intervene at one point in time to keep her from dying on you.
Yes, coccidia as well as pinworms are normal in their intestinal gut flora & unless they get really high they normally don't cause any problems, for the most part. Usually hookworms cause more damage & bleeding than the pinworms, unless the pinworms are extremely high in counts.
You could ask the vet for some critical care formula which is very good for sick lizards. They have carnivore & omnivore formulas available.
I am glad that she is sending the probiotics because they will really help her digestion once she is on the meds. I really hope that she pulls through for you.
I think your bearded dragon is going to be just fine though, so at least you don't have to worry so much about her, probably just a simple deworming or so should do wonders for her.
I will be anxious to see the counts for your bearded dragon as well as your MHD, too.
Hang in there. :D

Tracie
 
Hi Guys,
I'm glad you are taking the MHD to the vet for sure. The guy that sold you the MHD is an idiot. His deal is to buy WC cheap and be sure he sells them before they die. By the way, I think I redid my post when I was looking up the doses and meds and lost the part where I said that I got the meds and doses from Mader's Reptile Surgery and Medicine book...just wanted to let you guys know that I didn't pull that out of thin air. So far I've been lucky and haven't had anything that MTZ and Panacur didn't take care of.

MHD's naturally spend a lot of time just hanging out. They are peaceful lizards and I think they are so still much of the time because they are food for a lot of predators, they don't have any defense mechanisms other than sometimes looking scary and being really quick when they need to.

One thing I would definitely do is use papertowels or newspaper for the substrate until you get the parasite situation under control. I use Novalsan to clean my enclosures.

This is what I did with Pandora and the feeding....I got the carnivore diet from the vet and mixed it with pedialyte. I fed her 3 cc's 3 x day- morning, noon and night. I also offered the strawberry/kiwi gatorade several times a day with a dropper, she liked that and would open her mouth for it. I kept her humidity as high as I could and frequently misted. She spent a lot of time in the water dish. I had a bubbler in it and she seemed to like that. I also kept her enclosure a little warmer (82-84) than I do for well MHDs. I started using the mix of baby food that I told you about before the vet visit because it was the weekend and she seemed to want to eat that more than the carnivore diet so I switched back and forth to give her some variety. Despite all my efforts she died but I think she lived 2 months more than Marius because of what the vet and I did for her.

Since then, I have used the baby food mix for new MHDs if they aren't eating. Usually after doing that for a couple of days they will perk up and get after it. I also use the slurry mix if anyone is off their food and generally make it a couple of times a month - minus the greens - for the MHDs just because they like it and I put the herbal supplements in it. I bet when the meds kick in your MHD will really perk up because her gut will feel better....she's never going to be active like the beardie, they just aren't that kind of lizard. Usually you will see activity with the morning mist and putting food in for them...they will hunt and maybe swim, drink and climb around...then they will go to their perch and hang out, pretty much the rest of the time. They like to hang out on you and will pretty much stay where you put them....part of the staying still so as not to become someone's next meal to my way of thinking.

I hope everything goes well with your vet visit and that she gets on track. Angie
 
Hey ..
I know how disappointing loosing them both had to be, especially after the last one hanging in that long.was she still showing signs behaviorally or physically right up to that point?
Q? So was your MHD around 60 grams also, and she could handle 3 cc's at one time? I'm always afraid I'm going to give her too much. I've been getting about one cc in her at a time. I gotta say soooo stubborn. She will not mostly take it willingly. And I guess my hurrah was premature because she hasn't chosen to eat anything on her own again since! I've tried wax,crickets, meals, and now red wigglers. No interest at all. Ya , we're continuing w/ the paper towels for substrate. Keeping her humidity up too. Heres a question. everything says about 84 degrees tops for her. I felt that was due primarily to keep her from being dehydrated. In the past elevating temps a little higher then the norm has been one key in helping lizards heal at sick times. SO>> what do you of that thought, and what would be the max you'd keep her at and for how long? Since they are such a low ish temp sort of rep. I'm wondering what the digestion and heat situation is for them , Its usually been in the past that I wouldn't feed much at all past mid afternoon to very early evening. So they'd have plenty of time to digest while they were still in closer to optimum heat. But the MHD's temps don't really change nearly so drastically as the others. Oh the other thing the breeder told me was that waiting to feed her was OK because their metabolisms are so slow, being an agamid.I guess I don't know of any lizards that aren't slow? Also confusingly or maybe just to me? He said MHD's particularly don't like glass walls --because they are from the mountain forests and live in the trees. OK So following that logic I guess if beardy's or chuckawallas could shoot them selves they just would immediately upon arrival to their new aquarium homes! Since they are from the wide open spaces of the desert!!!! ANYWAY....
I'm so hopeful that getting rid of the Giardia will be a big difference. I can see where that could make the digestive period after eating a real bad time. Maybe thats why she didn't want to eat again after that effort, who knows. I added just a bit of aloe to her last mixture hoping that would sooth her innards a bit.
I feel like her mouth has got to be getting sore from trying to get her to open it. I've been using the q-tip but its still really tough. So now I soak it w/ ionic silver first so it can hopefully help heal it from any abrasions. She now has figured out that even if I get her lips open she can still grit her teeth together real good and keep her mouth closed from food!
I don't know this vet, so I hope he's good and can shed light etc.. Well feelin sleepy and grumpy but don't worry I won't take it out on you !
You know despite serious if not somewhat distressing subject matter , I feel these forums are supposed to be about people sharing, communicating, helping each other, and last but definitely not least --fun or at least enjoyable. Thanks you both for fitting my criteria! Lol! we'll check out the repticzone soon. G.
 
Hello

Hello!

A good rule of thumb to follow is for every 50 grams, you should give 2 cc's of food, so, I would say 2-3 is perfect. You could do just 2.5 or 2 on the lower end to make sure it isn't too much for her. IF she seems to be doing well on the 3 then by all means keep her at 3 for sure so she can gain some weight & stay hydrated.
I am really hoping that she will pull through for you! I know you are trying very hard. Hopefully once the giardia gets cleared up, it will help tremendously. Is her mouth raw yet? Will she not lick it off of the end of the syringe for you yet? She probably just isn't real hungry yet.
When are those meds getting there, this week I hope?
****Angie no worries! :D Maders book has several different values, & charts. I use his as a guideline, but also, Roger Klingenberg has a great parasite book out which is excellent as well. I always use a very conservative approach especially for dehydrated reptiles, they can go just like that. I feel so bad that you lost both of yours, that is too bad.
One day, maybe I will purchase a baby from you. :D

Tracie
 
Hey... got back from the vet... I'm going to make Gigi write up everything ( :) )since she actually went to the whole visit, I got there towards the end.
I don't know that we'll be seeing him again actually... she'll tell you more.

The counts are "too many to count on all of them". Oh, and the MHD also has Roundworms.
He did give her the first dose (a combo of Flagyl, Panacur, Albon). Everything should be here Friday from the breeder. We also picked up some Carnivore Care food mix. And did get little syringes and those red rubber tubes.
We may still have dosing questions on the Flaygl & Panacur. I need to make sure the concentrations are the product are what you all have talked about.
He did also say that a lot of these are likely just normal gut parasites, but with increased stressed they get out of control then cause a problem.
Gotta get to work...
 
I haven't ever heard anyone say that the glass bothers the MHD...not like it does a Chameleon...but you can always go with a Reptairum type set up with plastic wrap to keep in humidity. Mine are in enclosure with at least 3 sides of glass and no one seems to be freaked out about it. The babies don't know different because that's where they went when they hatched. The babies are so cool, they think I'm one of them - the momma - they are so tame and let me do anything to them...specially the older ones. The younger ones are still a bit skittish but they will settle down when I hold them. The older ones will climb right on my hand.

I'm gonna have to disagree about the glass situation. I think you need that to help hold humidity. They do need a lot of places to climb around even though they will settle in one spot and stay there almost all the time. My 2 females and 1 male that are together shift positions around but they mainly stay on the big stalks of the corn plant. they almost always are vertical. Someone once suggested that they do that for their digestion so you might want to make sure that your girl can climb up something to be in a vertical position.

As far as temp goes, I'm more on the low end of the temperature range. I keep mine around 71 at night and 78 in the day with a max ambient of 82. They do have UVB and bright white light (fluroescent) so there are places that they can climb to and be in almost 90 degree temperature if they want.

I used a 3cc feeding syringe with Pandora and I use that if I feed my adults slurry now....they will always eat the whole syringe full. Pandora wouldn't take more than 3cc's ever. Also, if you go to the 3cc place and you feed 2 nightcrawlers...that's probably more than 3 cc's. Bruja ate 4 nightcrawlers at one sitting the other day...that's a big honking bunch of worms. BTW....I think she might be gravid again...this time I know they are Diablo's!

I know you'll keep us posted, glad you liked the vet....I sure hope it all works out for you guys! Angie
 
Well... I think you need to post pics of Bruja and Diablo cuz we might need one of the babies. :)
We thought the guy was full of crap about the "no glass" thing too, for exactly what you said... humidity. She does have a couple places to be vertical, plus the paper towels. She does like to be vertical a LOT. She sleeps vertically.
Too tired to write more at the moment... we got a bit more food down her earlier after the, the new Carnivore Care mixture. She seems to have a little more alertness or something about her this evening, maybe the meds are kicking in already.
 
Hello

Hello,

I agree with Angie, the glass would hold humidity which is really what you need for her. That just doesn't make much sense.
Does she like the carnivore formula then? That is a good sign she is already just a bit more energetic then. Good thing you have more meds coming hopefully by the weekend, right?
They will sleep vertically especially when they are young, to help aid with digestion alot of times. If you notice, baby bearded dragons will do the same thing. The intestines are small & it must help things travel through better. The adults don't tend to sleep hanging like the babies do.
Definitely keep us posted. You are doing such a great job!
They said "too many to count" on the parasites & worms? Good grief. You can always give a count.

Tracie
 
Bruja and Diablo and 2Toe TOO!

Bruja and Diablo when I got them
BrujaandDiablo.jpg


Close up of Diablo
DiabloCloseup.jpg


Bruja when the first clutch hatched
100_0222.jpg


Bruja and 2Toe....2Toe is on the wall
Brujaand2Toe.jpg


BTW...all the babies that I have in my posts are Bruja's - she was WC and turned out to be gravid and layed eggs about 2 months after I got her so I don't know who the daddy is....these babies are catagorized as CH. The next clutch will be CB - but short term CB not long term. Angie =)
 
Cute!!!! I love Diablo's little red neck spines.
In the 2nd pic Bruja looks so green and bright, but looks more red/brown in the last pic. Ours is more dark brown/green.
2 Toe is cute too.
Nice set up also. We're working on making hers better this weekend.

About the "too many to count" comment. That was one thing we didn't like. He had to go ask the tech how many and that's what she said. So we're suspicious. The way this office evidentally reports a fecal is to put a sticker in the file with the names of the parasites. Next time I will ask specifically for counts and a written report when I drop off poop. Although next time it will likely be a different vet. Instead of 10 min from the house he is like 35min BUT this other guy I think will be better. He actually has reptiles in the waiting room, and a reptile set up in the hospital/boarding area.
More later...
 
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