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Info on record / Debbie Prince

"Because the snake in my opinion has no quality of life and the choice to euthanize has been made prior ." - Toni, post #253.

Prior to what??? On the 6th, two days ago, you had still not gone back to the vet to even look at the animal and stated "after my daughter and i visit her we will make a decision". - post# 210.
What has changed?..did you do as you said you would and "visit" the snake?

Also wanted to point out that you provided a "vet report" (dated 38 days after you received your snakes from Debbie) which doesn't even reference a morph, just "female ball python"..you apparently received SEVERAL snakes on this day (several from John- see post#226 and three from Debbie), how are we even to know that this vet is referencing the animal you say is from Debbie????

One last thing, you seem to have high regard for this vet's opinion...so why don't you re-read the "vet report" and take YOUR VET'S OPINION and return the snake??????...
hint: it's the VERY LAST statement in the "report".

I'm NOT saying you aren't entitled to a refund, I just don't think there are many breeders/sellers out there that are willing to refund without sending the snake back.
 
lets rethink this

wyldwurm said:
Sure, HER decision with HER vet. If you sold me a snake, then refunded my money for said snake. If I came to you and said, "Hey, you owe me 600 more dollars because *I* felt the need to know if it was sick." You would probably tell me to jump off the nearest cliff.

Debbie owes nothing after that refund.
Click to expand...

If the animal was sick and is....I wouldnt sell it there for no problem...I believe this issue didnt come up after the animal was shipped...but prior to shipping. As to my requirements I would and do require the animal back before sending or replacing the animal.
Kevin
 
Kill the snake and lose the refund. A refund should come with the return of the snake, period.

As far as IBD goes, Laura knows better than I do. I did quite a bit of research on it not very long ago while dealing with a different issue. The discussion so far doesn't sound anything like IBD to me, sounds more like the python got cooked.

Or is this a "I'm getting my money back and keeping the snake" sort of deal. Cause if that's the case, I need to buy more high end snakes.
 
No right to euthanize the snake....why not.
Click to expand...

Because once she accepts the refund, it's no longer her snake.

If Ms. Prince did infact sell a snake that has IBD like symptoms then she is responsible for the cost of the test as what price do you put on your collection that may have been exposed? Just some food for thought.
Click to expand...

How's this for an arrangement? Debbie will refund Toni in exchange for the snake in question. If Toni decides to euthanize the animal, the refund, including all veterinary costs incurred, will be sent ONLY if IBD is discovered. Considering the other possibilities, does this sound fair to you? The price Toni puts on her collection may not necessarily be the price Debbie puts on Toni's collection...especially considering Debbie knows the condition of the snake when shipped, as well as the rest of the collection it came from.
 
I would not refund if she did not return the snake.
At this point.. who has seen and commented in writing as to how bad the snake is? Is it making a small recovery? Is that why there is now a "No I'm going to euthanize it!" jump?
You have left the snake for all this time living at the vet, and didn't go see it for how long?... you're offered the refund.. and NO further vet bills by returning the snake. It's extremely suspicious to me that suddenly you want to euthanize it.
The idea of:
Buyer can euthanize to test for IBD, but realizes that the refund is totally forfeit UNLESS IBD IS PROVEN BY A LAB. Seems to be fairest, if you want to kill the snake. Otherwise, the seller has NO PROOF that the snake is still ill, or ever had severe issues.
You have posted a letter from the vet that says the blood smears were negative, and you've heard from many people in the thread as to why it most likely is NOT IBD. You wanted her to take the snake back, and now that she offered to take it back and give you a refund.. suddenly you're going to euthanize the animal?
Who was going to go see the animal in person? Wasn't there an offer back a few pages? And now you've had a couple offers to take the animal. It makes no sense to me that you've decided to kill it, when getting the refund offer means sending it back, and you'll have no bill for euthanizing or testing for IBD further.
 
I think if a refund is issued, the snake should definitely be sent back to Debbie. If for not other reason, as to remove any doubt that the sick snake at the vet is indeed the caramel albino that was sold. As Wes up there stated, who's to say that the sick snake at the vets office is the caramel albino that Debbie sold her? All i've see so far are some pics of a caramel albino curling around someone's hand as proof? No video. No vet report stating it is anything other than a plain old ball python.

So, to remove any suspicion, I think the snake should definitely be sent back to Debbie for her to do with as she see's fit. It's not the buyer's place to demand a refund AND the snake be euthanized by her/her vet. As it was stated, the refund is in essence buying the snake BACK, so it's her decision what happens to the snake.
 
wyldwurm said:
Sure, HER decision with HER vet. If you sold me a snake, then refunded my money for said snake. If I came to you and said, "Hey, you owe me 600 more dollars because *I* felt the need to know if it was sick." You would probably tell me to jump off the nearest cliff.

Debbie owes nothing after that refund.
Click to expand...

Great Post!

IF Debbie refunds the money, she should recieve a LIVE snake back.(ahem, the snake in question).
It should be Debbie's decision to euthanize the snake, not Toni.

Randal Berry
 
Toni -- I understand your concern - you have at least two other animals and possibly your whole collection that has been exposed to this animal. It's not like Debbie is going to have the money anytime real soon and by the time she does it should be enough time passed to rule out IBD. Since Debbie now wants the snake back -- keep it at the vets until then -- any costs incurred for boarding should be paid by Debbie. Unless Dr. Jacobsen recommends doing a necropsy then I don't think you should press it. I know you want answers and I know you're scared of what you could have going on in your collection but I wouldn't do it unless he says it's necessary.
 
Tosha,
I wholly disagree that Debbie should pay the incurring (daily boarding) vet costs.
The SELLER shouldn't have to pay the costs for that IF she beleives she shipped a healthy snake, (animal). That was Toni's decision to take it to the vet and by that decision, Toni should bear the cost. Period.

Randal Berry
 
lanceheads said:
Tosha,
I wholly disagree that Debbie should pay the incurring (daily boarding) vet costs.
The SELLER shouldn't have to pay the costs for that IF she beleives she shipped a healthy snake, (animal). That was Toni's decision to take it to the vet and by that decision, Toni should bear the cost. Period.

Randal Berry
Click to expand...

Thats odd . I could have sworn Debbie repeatedly stated her self in this thread that she insisted on a vet and if you look again you will see where she advised the blood smears for IBD .

The reason she says she didnt take care of this sooner as because she insisted on a vet.....now you want to change it and say it was my idea ?
Thats the thing about not telling the Truth...you get your story mixed up....at least thats what I have always heard .

The initial bill is 327 before any necropsy . Do you really think that I am going to accept that as my responsibility ?
 
wes smith said:
"Because the snake in my opinion has no quality of life and the choice to euthanize has been made prior ." - Toni, post #253.

Prior to what??? On the 6th, two days ago, you had still not gone back to the vet to even look at the animal and stated "after my daughter and i visit her we will make a decision". - post# 210.
What has changed?..did you do as you said you would and "visit" the snake?

Also wanted to point out that you provided a "vet report" (dated 38 days after you received your snakes from Debbie) which doesn't even reference a morph, just "female ball python"..you apparently received SEVERAL snakes on this day (several from John- see post#226 and three from Debbie), how are we even to know that this vet is referencing the animal you say is from Debbie????

One last thing, you seem to have high regard for this vet's opinion...so why don't you re-read the "vet report" and take YOUR VET'S OPINION and return the snake??????...
hint: it's the VERY LAST statement in the "report".

I'm NOT saying you aren't entitled to a refund, I just don't think there are many breeders/sellers out there that are willing to refund without sending the snake back.
Click to expand...

Now I am lying about it being the caramel ?
 
Uroboros said:
Kill the snake and lose the refund. A refund should come with the return of the snake, period.

As far as IBD goes, Laura knows better than I do. I did quite a bit of research on it not very long ago while dealing with a different issue. The discussion so far doesn't sound anything like IBD to me, sounds more like the python got cooked.

Or is this a "I'm getting my money back and keeping the snake" sort of deal. Cause if that's the case, I need to buy more high end snakes.
Click to expand...

you know up until randal berrys post stating that yes indeed ibd could be carried for months by a bp before it died ....i felt fairly comfortable that we were in the clear .

i have no desire to keep a snake this damaged . i didnt request to keep this animal .. debbie refused to take it back . maybe you missed all that ???
 
So please don't eat me alive, (somehow I feel like I will be anyway) but let me ask this...is there a possiblility the box that contained the snake was dropped/kicked/etc. at some point during the shipping, possibly causing the symptoms the snake is exhibiting? We all know how most shipping companies can be when they want to get things done quickly and go home...
Just my 2c.
I'll prepare for the firing squad.
 
captnemo said:
I've been following this thread quietly, but now feel I need to chime in. I faul Debbie for the way this was handled insofar as what ails this animal. From a seller's standpoint, the deal is not completed until the buyer is 100% satisfied, and the animal has arrived problem free. I also fault her for dragging her feet and poor communication.

However, at this point, she has made a fair offer, which includes $1500 the buyer agrees to accept as a refund. The poblem here is that a refund usually requires the return of the product. Right now, the buyer appears to be unreasonable and vindictive. It appears to me that she wants the seller to pay and pay dearly for her mistakes.

My suggestion is either accept the offer and send the animal back or decline the offer and take your chances in court.

This would not be the first time I've hard of heat related symptoms mimicing IBD, and after surviving for over 6 weeks after displaying symptoms, I would consider it reckless to euthanize at this point. I'm speaking in retrospect, as I have dealt with an almost identical problem and opted for euthanasia and necropsy. If I hadn't jumped the gun, I would have another nice IJ carpet in my collection right now.
Click to expand...

Debbie made no offer to pay the vet . She insited on the vet...advised the blood smears ..refused the animal since the beginning . She vacated the thread . I didnt enter the agreement for this greif or a damaged animal or the vet bill she insisted upon .
Randal berry posted that it was possible for a bp to carry the ibd virus for months before it died .

If that indeed is not the case why would he post it on here ? randal ? Was it a personal experience or do you have a reference ?
Personally I wouldnt breed an animal that was this damaged...seems cruel to me but that is beside the point...just replying to the statement that you regretted euthanizing and testing becasue it was negative and you could have used the animal for breeding. if I am mistaken about your statement please feel free to correct me .
 
Toni,
Yes.
You COULD have sent it back to her, whether are not she wanted you to.
Then THAT would have been on Debbie, whether or not to take it for a medical evaluation.

As the SELLER, If I shipped an animal that I thought was healthy, and the BUYER, thought otherwise, the BUYER HAS the option to send it right back and recoup shipping costs back to the seller. Very simple. Yet, you chose to keep it, for, how many weeks? and now you want Debbie to pay YOUR vet costs? I disagee. You failed intially to send it back, and now you want Debbie to occur your vet bills. Debbie made you a fair offer to resolve this, IMO, and if I were you, I'd take her up on it.

Randal Berry
 
dprince said:
OK, this is going to be my last post for now. I’m stepping off the merry go round, the cat and mouse game is over. I’ve not read any posts since I posted last, and I won’t read any more of them. Please don’t take that as a sign that I don’t care, but for my own mental health, I’ve got to step back. In reality, no matter what I say or do at this point, people have already made up their minds about this situation, whatever way that is, and no amount of back and forth is going to change that.

Though this ordeal started on February 19, I didn’t receive the vet report until 6 weeks after the snake was received by Toni. So though to some it may seem I’ve just sat on my laurels and done nothing, that’s just not the case. I have tried to be reasonable and respectful about this from the beginning, prior to this even becoming a BOI issue. I’ve asked for Toni to be respectful, which she has not been. I have NEVER EVER stated that I wouldn’t stand behind this snake, that I wouldn’t make it right, etc., as is shown by my numerous emails stating that I would replace the snake if I had the vet’s report – which was one of the options Toni wanted in the beginning. She no longer wants this, and I have now offered to sell one of my current collection and give her the money from that sale. She accepted that offer. It was suggested to me that I call Toni to work out the details of this transaction. I quite frankly don’t want anything not in writing, nor any private contact with her, so I am going to make my last offer here.

*I will sell one of my current snakes as the said “replacement snake”

*After the sale of the replacement (once that buyer has received and is happy with their snake), and sooner if I can, I will send Toni a MO for $1500.

*I will post a picture of said MO in this thread. I will send it out priority mail with delivery confirmation. I request that Toni post in this thread that she received said MO.

*As I am 100% confident that I didn’t send a sick snake, I will take the snake back. It will be quarantined (as any new acquisition would be) from the rest of my collection. Toni can choose to either send the snake now if she doesn’t want to be responsible for it until then, or she can send it when she receives the $1500. If the snake dies in her care, she is to send the body to me and I will have it necropsied with my own vet and post the report. It is her choice. If the snake dies in my care, I will have it necropsied and post the report. If she doesn’t, I will post pictures in a few months.

*If Toni accepts this offer, I would like ONE email or PM from her stating the address to mail the MO to, NOTHING ELSE. No snide comments, no accusations, nothing. When I receive this email, I will email her ONLY the address to have the snake shipped to. I request that the snake be sent back to me on the next Mon, Tues, or Wed after receiving said MO, and that I receive an email stating ONLY that the snake is being shipped and what day it is shipped, no other comments. That will be my last email contact with her.

*If I receive ANY nasty emails, phone calls, etc. from either Toni or any of Toni’s “friends”, then I consider this a done deal. I won’t be treated that way, sorry.

*Toni has 72 hours to respond to this offer. If she decides not to take it, then I will consider this over and done with.

For the multitudes of support and kindness I’ve received privately, I can’t thank you enough. It’s people like you that make the reptile community great. :)
Click to expand...




Send her the snake back. Let her take the risk. Let HER spend the money.

I agree with what most others said. No snake back (alive) should equal no money back.

Her offer is good.

Take it.

Do EVERYONE a favour (including yourself)

Sending it back would be getting it away from you and your collection. (no more fear of it possibly spreading IF it were IBD)

I have also received a snake like this in the past.. took him about 3 months, but eventually went back to normal. he had gotten over heated and dehydrated.



no long term damage was noticed.
 
lanceheads said:
Toni,
Yes.
You COULD have sent it back to her, whether are not she wanted you to.
Then THAT would have been on Debbie, whether or not to take it for a medical evaluation.

As the SELLER, If I shipped an animal that I thought was healthy, and the BUYER, thought otherwise, the BUYER HAS the option to send it right back and recoup shipping costs back to the seller. Very simple. Yet, you chose to keep it, for, how many weeks? and now you want Debbie to pay YOUR vet costs? I disagee. You failed intially to send it back, and now you want Debbie to occur your vet bills. Debbie made you a fair offer to resolve this, IMO, and if I were you, I'd take her up on it.

Randal Berry
Click to expand...

I get the impression that you are not following this thread very well. Debbie, in addition to be hard to reach, has tried to elude the issue at hand. In a reasonable scenario, the seller would have promptly offered a refund after having the snake returned. Instead, Debbie tried to write off the symptoms as "due to shipping stress" and avoid the disgruntled (rightfully so) buyer. If there is a reason that this has not been resolved in 2 months time, it rests on Debbie's shoulders. She has tried to avoid the issue, which is the sole reason that it ended up on the BOI.

Debbie's initial offer of another snake of equal or greater value six months from now, is understandably insufficient. There were already issues with the first package, and six months from now is not a reasonable time frame to fix this problem. Again, if only Debbie hadn't spent the money, a prompt refund would have been simple, painless, and the issue would already be over.

Since the thread has begun, Debbie has offered a refund. At which point, I do believe that Toni should return the animal. Given that the snake is still alive after 2 months, it is likely not IBD. Additionally, once a refund is sent it is again Debbie's responsibility to deal with the snake.

Randall, perhaps your personal relationships or emotions are clearing your judgment. Toni did not choose to keep the snake for several weeks. Debbie chose to avoid the problem for several weeks.
 
Laura Fopiano said:
Great post!

I have also remained silent through out this thread to let the 2 ladies involved find a peaceful resolution.

Inclusion Body Disease is a serious condition one that I have had personal experience with years ago. In my experience an IBD infected snake would not eat and defecate. They would either refuse the meal or eat and regurge. I euthanized thousands of dollars in animals and destroyed all of my equipment after getting back a positive necropsy and a positive liver biopsy from one of my other snakes.

I am so sure that this is not IBD and is a heat related issue, that if Toni agrees, I will pay for shipping and allow the animal to live here in my home for the rest of it's natural life. Bryon and I raise our own feeders and have an excellent Q area, I will send pictures and keep Toni updated here and on another web site that I am a member of....sound fair?
Click to expand...

LoLo... I didnt pay shipping to get the snakes and I wouldnt want it to cost you . I appreciate your offer and believe you would do any testing if you thought for a second it was ibd ....or let me know and somehow we would manage to get it done .

I am so sorry for your loss .

It is not doing well but it is still alive as the vet was closed today . I have been out of town today and just getting home . She will eat and she has defecated which the vet says looks normal . If she gets any stimulation she goes upside down and twists around . I dont know how much a snake suffers.....it looks like she is suffering ...she falls over when she tries to raise herself .

What Randal said about the bp being able to carry ibd for months before dying...is that absolutely not the case ? Are we really safe here by now ?
I dont think we could go through what you did and survive it .

Thank you ,
Toni
 
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