Info on record / Debbie Prince

[AF Exotics]

I have been following this thread closely and wanted to offer some personal experience with overheating and with John Manser.

1.Overheating,or exposure will cause symptoms such as this BP is showing.I have a prized snake that would have been euthanized had I not taken advice and a step back.I did know what caused it,unlike this situation.I also can say it was a very short time duration that caused it,and the physical proximity of the heat pack and the size of the box really lend itself to that occurring.


2.John Manser has provided me with a beautiful Hypo Sonoran Boa,who is in her POS right now and looks well on her way to providing a litter.She was already in prime breeding age and condition,Thanks John

3.Something of a personal observation too.Why would anybody risk their entire collection if the minute they opened a box with new snakes and found anything suspect,expose their entire collection(as what is being inferred,with the threat of future litigation implied),and expect someone else to be responsible for it?


4.I do believe the refund is in order,and as Bryon stated,the seller asked for proof,and should incur the cost for said proof.She(seller) made a mistake and whatever motivation it took,is willing to step up and make it right.The snake should be returned and refund given.Their doesn't seem to be any clearer thinking that that of the Vet STATING AS MUCH IN HIS REPORT.The customer was not satisfied,and should be refunded.All this other stuff on the periphery is being inflamed by others,and really should just be given a break.


I really hope this comes to an end,and am always saddened by what Laura had to go through with her collection and can understand anybodies well placed fears.Her loss was well documented here in the past and that act of integrity and transparency is much appreciated.Marcus.

 

[ToshaMc]

And personally, I don't care about TOS', if I buy an animal and it shows up like the carmel did, I'd be insisting on a refund and a return, and if that wasn't met, it would wind up here. If the seller demanded a vet report, I could get one the next day (because as a responsible herper, I have a good exotics vet).

I think Toni is due a refund, and Debbie is due the snake. The vet bills, outside of the one requested by Debbie - she should pay for that, are Toni's.

I think the gap that you are having trouble with is because the vet was trying to do what he could to see if the snake would respond to treatments or make some kind of recovery before making any official statements - As well Toni did call Debbie directly from the vets office with his initial findings for her input on what further actions to take so she did kind of get a verbal vet report. At that time Debbie said throw the snake in the freezer and when she receives a vet report and necropsy Toni could have a replacement animal in 6 months -- however it was the vets recommendation to give it more time and testing. Also note that since the snake has not yet died there has been no necropsy to send to Debbie. The following day Debbie decided that IBD could be determined by blood tests and wanted those done (guess it was a good thing they didn't put the snake down the night before). But this kind of decision making is why it's taken so long.

 

[Uroboros]

I think the gap that you are having trouble with is because the vet was trying to do what he could to see if the snake would respond to treatments

Then that is Toni's decision. Toni was asked for a vet report, it was delivered 36 days later. A phone call is just lame, I wouldn't trust it either. I'd also call the number on the vet letterhead to verify that it was indeed seen. She wasn't asked for months of treatments, just a report.

Like I said, I could have had one the next day, so could Toni. I'd have to take time out of work to do it as well, but I could have done it. Even the following weekend would have been a lot sooner than a month.

IMO, the vet report is just a stupid idea and a complete waste of time and money, but it was asked for.

On the 24th, Debbie should have just offered money back, and Toni should have stuck the thing in a box on it's way back. Done and done. She still has that option, it appears, it should be taken.

 

[ToshaMc]

Then that is Toni's decision. Toni was asked for a vet report, it was delivered 36 days later. A phone call is just lame, I wouldn't trust it either. I'd also call the number on the vet letterhead to verify that it was indeed seen. She wasn't asked for months of treatments, just a report.

Like I said, I could have had one the next day, so could Toni. I'd have to take time out of work to do it as well, but I could have done it. Even the following weekend would have been a lot sooner than a month.

IMO, the vet report is just a stupid idea and a complete waste of time and money, but it was asked for.

On the 24th, Debbie should have just offered money back, and Toni should have stuck the thing in a box on it's way back. Done and done. She still has that option, it appears, it should be taken.

Technically she asked for a vet report and necropsy results since the snake is not dead and a necropsy not done the need for an overnight vet report is kind of moot anyway.

 

[KelliH]

I think the gap that you are having trouble with is because the vet was trying to do what he could to see if the snake would respond to treatments or make some kind of recovery before making any official statements - As well Toni did call Debbie directly from the vets office with his initial findings for her input on what further actions to take so she did kind of get a verbal vet report. At that time Debbie said throw the snake in the freezer and when she receives a vet report and necropsy Toni could have a replacement animal in 6 months -- however it was the vets recommendation to give it more time and testing. Also note that since the snake has not yet died there has been no necropsy to send to Debbie. The following day Debbie decided that IBD could be determined by blood tests and wanted those done (guess it was a good thing they didn't put the snake down the night before). But this kind of decision making is why it's taken so long.

Debbie never told her to "throw the snake in the freezer". She told Toni if she chose to euthanize the animal it was her choice, and that the freezer was an option.

Look, Debbie screwed up. She made a mistake. We all make mistakes, none of us posting here are perfect. It's how we deal with those mistakes that count, and Debbie has said she will be refunding Toni's money. Yeah it probably took too long to get to a resolution but it also took Toni way too long to send a vet report to Debbie. At this point Toni needs to send the animal back to her if she gets a refund, that's the way it normally works in this business. There is no valid reason to euthanize the snake at this point.

 

[Uroboros]

As previously stated, if you'd like to discuss a possible replacement, you will need to take the snake to the vet, and scan a copy of the report for me. Once the problem has been identified, I will be willing to discuss it further. If you aren't willing to do this, then there is nothing more I can do.

It appears that she was asked for a vet report, no necropsy.

 

[ToshaMc]

It appears that she was asked for a vet report, no necropsy.

However after the phone conversation at the vets it became:

I will NOT accept ANY snakes back from you now, but if I receive the vet report (and the necropsy report) I will replace the carmel albino (when I have something of equal or greater value to offer) after I've read the vet report and necropsy and determined that that is the right course of action.

So it was no longer just acceptable to send the snake back or send a vet report but now she was insisting on the necropsy.

 

[Uroboros]

However after the phone conversation at the vets it became:




So it was no longer just acceptable to send the snake back or send a vet report but now she was insisting on the necropsy.

The entire text of that was

If you choose to put down your snake, that is your choice. I will NOT accept ANY snakes back from you now, but if I receive the vet report (and the necropsy report) I will replace the carmel albino (when I have something of equal or greater value to offer) after I've read the vet report and necropsy and determined that that is the right course of action. I won't have anything of equal or greater value for at least six months, so the QT that you seek will be met. What other breeders would or would not do has no bearing on what I will or will not do.

 

[Uroboros]

That still doesn't change the waiting over a month for a vet report that should have occurred in the first week.

It also does not change the insistance by the buyer for a refund AND a return of the snake. That should have happened. This BOI thread should have been posted on the 8th day, provided the vet report requested by Debbie was sent and Debbie still refused to do anything about it.

Like I said, on the 24th, even Debbie should have insisted that the snake be returned and a refund given. Toni's boarding of the snake at the vet's for more than a month is Toni's bill.

AGAIN, if Toni was so concerned about IBD, where are the other two snakes living? They should also be considered carriers as not all snakes produce symptoms of IBD. If the other two snakes are sitting happily at Toni's house, it's clear that Toni isn't that concerned about IBD, for whatever reason.

 

[ToshaMc]

The entire text of that was

Yeah so -- I'm not sure what your post was supposed to mean -- it doesn't change the fact that as soon as she knew the snake was at the vet and he'd confirmed it wasn't doing well that she changed her mind and decided to add the necropsy report to her list of conditions. Unless you are suggesting that at that point Debbie has surrendered the snake and has no further right to ask for it back? But are you starting to see the pattern here?

 

[Wolfy-hound]

She added the necropsy report AFTER the euthanizing was mentioned.
Why wait a full month to give a vet report?
Will she return the snake? Again.

 

[ToshaMc]

She added the necropsy report AFTER the euthanizing was mentioned.
Why wait a full month to give a vet report?
Will she return the snake? Again.

No she added the necropsy when she knew that the vet had confirmed what Toni was seeing. She didn't say you can euthanize it but I still need that vet report -- she said she needed both and then she would determine her course of action -- oh and she'd need 6 months to replace the animal as well. So lets keep dwelling on the one month it took the vet to put together the report and not that Debbie is the primary reason and that she won't likely have the refund for another month and oh yeah if she'd just stood behind the animal in the first place -- vet report wouldn't be necessary.

Should Toni return the snake -- Debbie has already stated it was hers thereby relinquishing rights to it. Toni will likely answer your question after she has discussed with the Dr.s the best course of action for her, for her collection and for the snake. Is Debbie willing to necropsy the snake if the Dr.s recommend it? Who knows she's once again in her hole avoiding the subject.

 

[Uroboros]

No she added the necropsy when she knew that the vet had confirmed what Toni was seeing.

Go back and re-read, in the emails on the 24th.

Who knows she's once again in her hole avoiding the subject.

Speaking of holes and avoiding subjects, where is Toni answering the question about the two BPs that were deeply exposed to the "infected" BP that's at the vet because it's "infected"?

 

[jayefbe]

I think you are reading too much into Toni's reactions, uroboros.

Anyways, I gotta say that Toni hasn't reacted well to the BOI thread. Posting a bad guy thread involves keeping meticulous details, withstand abuse, threats and insults. It involves constantly defending yourself, making sure to never contradict yourself, and put up with accusations.

Now, granted, Toni is not doing a lot to make herself look good in the thread, but at the same time there is absolutely no evidence or proof that she has done anything wrong. Unless you want to take her unwillingness to put up with the utter bullpatty that is a BOI thread, the constant accusations, and people acting like straight up arrogant pricks (you know who you are) as a sign of guilt, then I guess you're a little shortsighted.

I believe that the seller purposefully avoided Toni. If the vet report took too long to arrive it is at least due in part to Debbie dragging her feet, and refusing to stand by her animal when she needed to. To top it off, she changed her TOS once it became clear that she had an unhappy buyer, which was a true scumbag move.

Uroboros, you can continue to berate, accuse and make an ass of yourself. If you truly think Toni is guilty of anything, then please, keep up with your sad little antics. I personally just think you're a sadist that enjoys judging other people from your "all-knowing" vantage point.

I personally think that she be awarded a refund (everyone can agree on that) and the snake should be returned once the refund is paid, assuming that Debbie wants the snake back. There should be zero argument with that.

 

[lanceheads]

I think you are reading too much into Toni's reactions, uroboros.

Anyways, I gotta say that Toni hasn't reacted well to the BOI thread. Posting a bad guy thread involves keeping meticulous details, withstand abuse, threats and insults. It involves constantly defending yourself, making sure to never contradict yourself, and put up with accusations.

Now, granted, Toni is not doing a lot to make herself look good in the thread, but at the same time there is absolutely no evidence or proof that she has done anything wrong. Unless you want to take her unwillingness to put up with the utter bullpatty that is a BOI thread, the constant accusations, and people acting like straight up arrogant pricks (you know who you are) as a sign of guilt, then I guess you're a little shortsighted.

I believe that the seller purposefully avoided Toni. If the vet report took too long to arrive it is at least due in part to Debbie dragging her feet, and refusing to stand by her animal when she needed to. To top it off, she changed her TOS once it became clear that she had an unhappy buyer, which was a true scumbag move.

Uroboros, you can continue to berate, accuse and make an ass of yourself. If you truly think Toni is guilty of anything, then please, keep up with your sad little antics. I personally just think you're a sadist that enjoys judging other people from your "all-knowing" vantage point.

I personally think that she be awarded a refund (everyone can agree on that) and the snake should be returned once the refund is paid, assuming that Debbie wants the snake back. There should be zero argument with that.

Randal Berry

 

[BryonsBoas]

I don't see Toni's reactions to being questioned as an unwillingness to put up with anything. She stated on another forum prior to this thread that she expected to be bullied and anytime someone questions her in the slightest, she automatically assumes it is an attack. A good many of her responses to those questions make me want to laugh from her twisting them into something they weren't to begin with.

The question has been asked how the other two are doing. No answer that I remember.

I believe a line of questions were asked as to why the snake is being boarded at the vet, racking up a bill while the other two, after being exposed, are quite fine to have in her Q-rack. No answer.

Debbie is doing her thing. Toni is doing hers. I don't see either one of them looking all that good at this point. I've run various scenarios in my head and they all lead up to a honking big bill for one of them eventually to get the snake out of the vet's office if its allowed to be boarded until Debbie can refund the purchase price.

 

[David Reid]

Send the Caramel back, get your refund. Keep the two other snakes in quarantine for as long as you need too, to feel comfortable that they do not have IBD. Get your refund, send the snake back, and if you still feel that you need to get reimbursed for your vet bill, mileage to and from the vet, gas money, lunch money, milk money....take her to court.

It is time to end this...you both are looking worse and worse.

 

[ToshaMc]

Bottom line is that it shouldn't have been Toni's responsibility to jump through hoops for a seller that didn't want to accept responsibility. Ultimately the responsibility is with the seller until the buyer is happy - Toni never was.

Had Debbie done the right thing on day one, two or even three this wouldn't be an issue. But a month into the drama she still wasn't ready to accept responsibility. It took making it public for her to begrudgingly do a half-assed version of the right thing.

 

[MikeCurtin]

Bottom line is that it shouldn't have been Toni's responsibility to jump through hoops for a seller that didn't want to accept responsibility. Ultimately the responsibility is with the seller until the buyer is happy - Toni never was.

Had Debbie done the right thing on day one, two or even three this wouldn't be an issue. But a month into the drama she still wasn't ready to accept responsibility. It took making it public for her to begrudgingly do a half-assed version of the right thing.

Tosha, I honestly think if I read the word "if" in one more of your posts, I will stab myself in the eye with a pencil!

Neither Debbie nor Toni can change what transpired over the past 6-8 weeks. Debbie has shown willingness to try and make things right, albeit begrudgingly as you stated. Toni wants more than to be re-imbursed...she wants Debbie punished, and would probably not mind seeing her name ruined. That's why that snake is still being boarded at the vet.

No word on the other 2 exposed animals yet, huh?

 

[ToshaMc]

Tosha, I honestly think if I read the word "if" in one more of your posts, I will stab myself in the eye with a pencil!

Neither Debbie nor Toni can change what transpired over the past 6-8 weeks. Debbie has shown willingness to try and make things right, albeit begrudgingly as you stated. Toni wants more than to be re-imbursed...she wants Debbie punished, and would probably not mind seeing her name ruined. That's why that snake is still being boarded at the vet.

No word on the other 2 exposed animals yet, huh?

It's still being boarded at the vet because Debbie said that she could keep the snake until she had the refund.

It's not Toni's fault Debbie wouldn't stand behind her animal - Debbie shot down her own reputation when she refused to do the right thing. Personally I'd rather not have people like that in this hobby/business but that is just my opinion.

I'll stay out of it from here wouldn't want to cause you any unnecessary eye injuries.