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Info on record / Debbie Prince

This is simply my interpretation -- Toni is done trying to jump through hoops for Debbie -- Debbie relinquished her rights to the snake and told Toni that if she provided the vet report she could have replacement animal/refund -- the vet report was presented to her and Debbie reneged again, stalled, argued, denied, lied and presented some more hoops -- just like she did for the first two months before this hit the BOI. If Debbie wanted or needed proof she had plenty of time to ask for it - hell she could have had the snake back three months ago to do what she pleases but she didn't. But done is done.

My best guess is that when Toni is healthy and able this will become a legal matter so from here on out she won't likely be saying anything further publicly on either forum. If Debbie wants to step up to the plate prove that she is a woman of her word and work with her then she needs to open the lines of communication and do so.

I'm pretty sure Debbie already did that. I've seen the pics of the money orders, and I'm assuming you have as well. I've heard from Dennis what sounds to me like a fairly reasonable offer. It seems now it's stalled because of Toni's health. I could have sworn when all this started Debbie had her own issues she was dealing with. A newborn baby, wasn't it? If you're going to bash Debbie for stalling, then look at it from both sides. Who's stalling now?

If Toni wants to take this to court instead of trying to work at it and solve it with Debbie and/or Dennis, all she has to do is say so. I'm sure this thread would drift away until court proceedings started. Until then, we've all got our speculations on what's going on. With so many unanswered questions, mine are getting firmer and firmer.
 
Okay, just made a visit over at the BLBC thread to find that Toni posted her stance over there. From what I've gathered.

1. She pretty pointedly stated that she's not interested in Debbie's offer. No counter-offers, no add-ons. Just no.
2. She intends to pursue this through the courts.
3. She still intends to put the snake down and have it necropsied.

Randal, I really wish you'd been able to make a trip to that vet to see the snake. I'm really at a loss as to why Toni would still intend to kill the snake, in light of the fact that it's still alive to my knowledge. I've pretty much ruled out IBD, so why?

Ah well. I'll say this. I'm glad I've never bought anything from Debbie, and I'm certainly glad I've never sold anything to Toni. I honestly smell a scam, but that's just my opinion. That snake, to ME, looks bigger than 287 grams. I wonder if Debbie ever had the snake weighed before shipment. I wonder why the vet report doesn't mention any characteristics of the snake other than "ball python." Not even an "albino" or anything. And it really bothers me that Toni is so gung-ho to have the snake put down. Especially a $1500 snake.

Even if it would never be bred, I'd certainly try to have a beautiful pet as long as it was eating, shedding, and didn't appear to be in any discomfort. I've seen the videos of Ralph Davis' horribly kinked caramels that are huge and eat and shed. They've lived this long because he didn't see the need to put them down. As long as he'd not breeding them and furthering bad genes, I don't see the harm.

So yeah, these are just my questions and concerns. I know she won't come in and give any answers, but I feel I should get them out in the open. At least this way, future buyers and sellers will be able to form their own opinions and see things from many different angles.
 
Someone way earlier in the thread offered to go see the snake in person at the vet, and toni never took him up on that offer. As far as I can determine no one other than toni on these threads has set eyes on the supposedly sick snake.
It seems toni is not really interested in a refund if it means giving back the snake, which seems like she wants to keep the product and get her money back too, which makes no sense to keep an animal she stated could not be bred, and how she thinks she will get any court to rule in her favor with an offer of refund for return of the animal is beyond me.
Debbie made a reasonable offer, facilitated by a honest person willing to be the go-between so that no one could get screwed... and toni is uninterested.
Tosha, you can try to bypass the questions like toni has, but why didn't you tell her about the offer? You've said you've been in contact, and made comments about her status, why didn't you pass on the offer to her?
I'd like to see any breeders/sellers that would give a full refund and pay for over-inflated vet bills, with NO explanation from a vet, and NO proof of illness in the snake in question, with NO return of the animal. I certainly would never give a refund without return of the animal, especially when no proof of the vet bills, and no proof of the animal's condition has been offered. Who would?
 
Tattoo,

For those of us not BLBC-savvy, would you please post the link to the discussion there (I know it was posted earlier in this looooong thread but I'm on some terrific drugs since I shattered my ankle yesterday and I'd probably fall asleep looking for it!)?

My interest from the beginning has been the snake's well-being. I would love to hear how it is doing. Toni's determination, almost from the get-go, to euthanise the animal strikes me as very suspect. Her refusal to accept Debbie's offer seems even more so. She can certainly pursue legal action if she desires, but a) no court is going to allow her to both keep/kill the animal AND get the money; b) the court will find it as suspicious as most of us here do that, for someone so worried about IBD that she won't even QT the animal at home, she has shown next to no concern for quarantining the snakes that were included in that shipment away from her collection, and c) good luck trying to purchase from or sell to anyone here in the future. She's really coming across as pretty vindictive and unconcerned with the snake's needs and best interests at this point. I ain't saying it IS so; I'm saying it
LOOKS so. But it's not just me who thinks this.

I can sympathize with both parties from the standpoints of a new baby with complications AND with chronic, serious personal health issues; but certainly not with the manner in which this business has been conducted, particularly by Toni. Really, if you're going to start a debate like this in a public forum, you'd better be prepared to keep coming back to explain and/or defend yourself, or else, as Toni has no doubt learned, you look very shady.
 
This is all I ever get out of all of your posts here.. Long winded Guess's? Just dont cut it on the BOI. Tosha, If you dont "KNOW" then just Shut the HELL UP!! K?

I was asked here by one of the parties to participate in this thread -- I am being questioned by the others in this thread as to my thoughts and observations -- what is your reason for being here?

I'm pretty sure Debbie already did that. I've seen the pics of the money orders, and I'm assuming you have as well. I've heard from Dennis what sounds to me like a fairly reasonable offer. It seems now it's stalled because of Toni's health. I could have sworn when all this started Debbie had her own issues she was dealing with. A newborn baby, wasn't it? If you're going to bash Debbie for stalling, then look at it from both sides. Who's stalling now?

Toni just (within the past few days) found out about the Money Orders -- as she told Debbie both in this thread and by snail mail at the onset of the "offer" she expected her to live up to her original agreement not create a new one she was not interested in jumping through more hoops. Which I think is a reasonable expectation.

And Toni's health is much more sever than a baby with jaundice and has had her hospitalized. I've had a newborn baby with jaundice it's really not that big of a deal -- it certainly didn't get in Debbies way of collecting money, sending out animals and then revamping her web site to cover her ass while she ignored her customer. :rolleyes:

Agreed. There needs to be an ACTUAL vet report SHOWN to debbie. This Vets "Statement" WONT. Cut it. That is not an actual exam.

Aside from a vet bill what other type of vet report is there? The results of the blood work? The necrospy report? What else is there besides a the vet's statement?

On the subject of proof -- if Debbie wanted or needed proof she had the opportunity at day one and many days since to get the snake back or even ask for proof -- she never did - not once. Vet report she got - says the snake is as stated condition unknown. Well Toni wants proof there is nothing that the snake or it's traveling companions will pass onto her collection -- she wants to be able to bring the other snakes home - she has said this since she stopped believing Debbies lies and she is willing to stand up for it -- yet she's the one being grilled for putting her foot down. Sure IBD might be ruled out due to the time frame but there are other things that this could be -- you don't know, I don't know. Debbie has already told her to put the snake down, it would already be dead and necropsied if the vet hadn't decided to wait and see if it could be treated. Enough hoops.
 
I was asked here by one of the parties to participate in this thread -- I am being questioned by the others in this thread as to my thoughts and observations -- what is your reason for being here?



Toni just (within the past few days) found out about the Money Orders -- as she told Debbie both in this thread and by snail mail at the onset of the "offer" she expected her to live up to her original agreement not create a new one she was not interested in jumping through more hoops. Which I think is a reasonable expectation.

And Toni's health is much more sever than a baby with jaundice and has had her hospitalized. I've had a newborn baby with jaundice it's really not that big of a deal -- it certainly didn't get in Debbies way of collecting money, sending out animals and then revamping her web site to cover her ass while she ignored her customer. :rolleyes:



Aside from a vet bill what other type of vet report is there? The results of the blood work? The necrospy report? What else is there besides a the vet's statement?

On the subject of proof -- if Debbie wanted or needed proof she had the opportunity at day one and many days since to get the snake back or even ask for proof -- she never did - not once. Vet report she got - says the snake is as stated condition unknown. Well Toni wants proof there is nothing that the snake or it's traveling companions will pass onto her collection -- she wants to be able to bring the other snakes home - she has said this since she stopped believing Debbies lies and she is willing to stand up for it -- yet she's the one being grilled for putting her foot down. Sure IBD might be ruled out due to the time frame but there are other things that this could be -- you don't know, I don't know. Debbie has already told her to put the snake down, it would already be dead and necropsied if the vet hadn't decided to wait and see if it could be treated. Enough hoops.

i agree
i dont think debbie made any attempt to contact the vet it is up to her to do that
 
If it was the vet's decision to wait, and try to treat, how are any of the subsequent bills Debbie's responsibility?
 
Tosha, please show me where Debbie told her to put the snake down? The only thing I've found by Debbie mentioning putting the snake down is this quote from page one, one of the emails sent, as posted by Toni.

"Testing can be done on live snakes - a snake does not have to be put down and necropsied in order to ascertain its status. http://www.anapsid.org/ibd.html

If you choose to put down your snake, that is your choice."

It seems to me, changing circumstances and questionable practices would warrant any changes a resolution. If Toni is unwilling to compromise, that's her choice, but to me it looks very badly on her as things sit right now. I'll wait to hear about how court goes for her.
 
Tosha, please show me where Debbie told her to put the snake down? The only thing I've found by Debbie mentioning putting the snake down is this quote from page one, one of the emails sent, as posted by Toni.

"Testing can be done on live snakes - a snake does not have to be put down and necropsied in order to ascertain its status. http://www.anapsid.org/ibd.html

If you choose to put down your snake, that is your choice."

It seems to me, changing circumstances and questionable practices would warrant any changes a resolution. If Toni is unwilling to compromise, that's her choice, but to me it looks very badly on her as things sit right now. I'll wait to hear about how court goes for her.

testing a live snake does not always show if there is a problem you need to test the brain to be 100% sure
 
Debbie can not contact the vet to get information on toni's snake. Any vet that would release information to a unrelated party is unethical.
Debbie asked for a vet report very early and it took 4-6 weeks to get the letter that doesn't mention what snake it is, and basically says the vet didn't find anything wrong with it, other than the initial symptoms. Since the initial exam there's nothing to say what(if anything) there is still wrong with the snake, and also there is no bill for services, and toni never explained where she even came up with the weird amount she mentioned.
Also there's never been an answer as to why toni leaves the snake(supposedly) with the vet, when the other 2 equalled exposed snakes are not at the vet.
Tosha, you denied before that you were speaking for toni, yet now you say you were asked to come do so, do you mean that NOW toni asked you come give the info, becuase she is having further health issues? Or did she ask you to come post here way back before now? Your post was a little unclear.
Again, I'm sorry that toni is having health problems, but debbie had a sick baby in the hospital, and was bashed as that being no excuse, and toni posted on another board about this, yet denied knowing anything about the deal offered, despite being in touch with people who are participating on her behalf in the threads, then she has turned down the refund.. because???? she wants to keep the snake AND get a refund AND get paid for a amount of money for a vet bill she has yet to prove? All without answering the basic questions?

I think toni is being beyond unreasonable, IMHO. She enjoys her victim role when she has people to feel sorry for her and not ask any questions, and then turns around and turns down the very thing she wanted to begin with. There's no "hoops" for her to jump through, it's very very simple.
Show a vet bill with the report, and the snake. All that could be done either with one trip to the vet, by either her or anyone she authorizes to do so. Debbie already got the money orders for the refund. There is a go-between already set up so she can safely send the snake off, and get her refund.
 
testing a live snake does not always show if there is a problem you need to test the brain to be 100% sure

We've pretty much covered that 147. We're now past that, as far as I'm concerned. I've heard nothing as to whether the snake is eating or shedding or defecating without problems. I've heard nothing about signs of mouth rot. I have only heard "the snake is still exhibiting the same symptoms" which to me would show neurological problems. As such, I wouldn't see a reason to put the snake down. But as Debbie stated before, that's Toni's choice. I think that would pretty much negate any offer of a refund at this time.

As I said, I'm anxious to hear how court proceedings turn out. Should be very interesting.
 
Just so people can read....

This is a document by Dr. Elliot Jacobson That Toni's Vet Was/Is working with. I find it interesting. As should others.

http://www.reptilechannel.com/media/reptile-health/snake-health/inclusion-body-disease.aspx.pdf

Quoted From Text:
"
Snake Inclusion Body Disease
Research from the nation’s top snake inclusion body disease expert.
Text and photos by Elliott Jacobson, Ph.D., DVM, DACZM
Click images to enlarge
This boa constrictor with IBD has skin lesions. Remember, such signs can be indicative of other diseases, too.
A vet performs a liver biopsy on a boa using ultrasound-guided biopsy methods. Tissue biopsies are one way vets can
diagnose whether a snake has IBD.Soon after arriving at the University of Florida in 1977, I started receiving certain boid
snakes, Burmese pythons (Python molurus bivitattus) and boa constrictors (Boa constrictor), with signs of a neurological
disease. It was characterized by the formation of inclusions, unique stainable bodies, in the cytoplasm of a wide variety of
cells, including those in the central nervous system and circulating blood cells. Eventually it was named inclusion body
disease. Thereafter, IBD was seen in other boa and python species, and the green anaconda (Eunectes murinus). An
unconfirmed disease resembling IBD also was diagnosed in an eastern kingsnake (Lampropeltis g. getula) housed with boa
constrictors and in palm vipers (Bothriechis marchi). It’s unknown how many snakes die from IBD every year.
Reflecting on my 31 years studying IBD, what is most interesting to me is that in the early years I saw more cases of the
disease in Burmese pythons than in boa constrictors, but now it is the opposite. Speculation as to the reason for this change
abounds, but because good before-death tests aren’t available for IBD, we do not have the tools to sort out the factors of
this puzzle.
Clinical Signs
Although some snakes die within several weeks of showing the first signs of illness, others can remain alive for months or
more. For Burmese pythons, the most common signs of IBD are head tilts, abnormalities in body positioning, locomotor
abnormalities, “stargazing” and heads arching over bodies. Several pythons also lost muscle tone throughout their entire
bodies. In addition to signs of nervous system disease, IBD-affected boa constrictors and other related boas commonly
regurgitate food items within several days of eating. Regurgitation was not seen in Burmese pythons. Additional signs seen
in affected boas include oral inflammations, pneumonia and various tumors. Remember that the clinical signs seen in
snakes with IBD can be quite similar to signs of other snake diseases. Signs alone do not allow someone to make a specific
diagnosis.
I know from experience that certain boid snakes can have what we call a “subclinical infection.” In these infections an animal
is infected with a pathogen, but it does not manifest clinical signs of illness. Such animals may be very difficult to diagnose,
and they may spread the pathogen to other animals. Perhaps there are different disease-causing strains of the causative
agent, which may account for differences in the clinical appearance of infected snakes.
Cause and Transmission
The specific cause of IBD is not known, but the presence of inclusions in multiple tissues is what is currently used to make a
diagnosis. Costs can be a limiting factor in these diagnostics. Depending on the number of tissues submitted, tissue
biopsies from living snakes generally can be evaluated for less than $200, but note this doesn’t include the cost of taking the
biopsies. Submitting a blood film to a clinical pathologist to determine if inclusions are present is relatively inexpensive, but
there are limits on what this test will reveal. Full necropsies on dead snakes may cost $300 to $500 per case.
Although evidence supports a virus in the family Retroviridae, which includes the HIV and FIV viruses, as the causative
agent of IBD, the original retrovirus isolated from an IBD-infected snake was lost. In a more recent study, we isolated
several retroviruses from boa constrictors with IBD, and these isolates were partially characterized. Still, we do not know
whether one is the causative agent of IBD. These isolates need to be fully sequenced, so a molecular-based test that
permits testing of the tissues of infected snakes for the presence of the virus can be developed.
Like IBD’s cause, the disease’s exact route of transmission has not been determined, but direct contact is probably
involved. The common snake mite (Ophionyssus natricis) has been incriminated as a possible vector. Invariably, mites are
present in snake colonies experiencing an IBD outbreak. Thus preventing mites from entering a collection and eliminating
them in one are essential tasks. Eliminating mites from a collection is highly dependent upon the collection’s size. It’s also
possible the disease’s causative agent is passed on from mother to young in both egg-laying and live-bearing snakes.

IBD Prevention and Management
There is no easy template to follow to prevent IBD from entering a snake collection, or managing a breeding or pet collection
where the disease has been diagnosed. However, several approaches can reduce the risk of IBD entering a collection.
First and foremost, a solid preventative medicine program should be established. No such program is 100 percent effective
in all situations, so what we are talking about is risk reduction. Having a veterinarian knowledgeable about reptiles or
specializing in reptile medicine is all-important.
Snake- Savvy Vets
A veterinarian specializing in reptile medicine or knowledgeable about reptiles is one part of an effective preventative
medicine program for snakekeepers. Find lists of herp-friendly vets at ReptileChannel.com/VetList or through the
Association of Reptilian and Amphibian Veterinarians website: arav.org. Also essential is knowing the collection history of
soon-to-be-purchased snakes. This sounds simple, but actually it is not. Uncovering the history of the breeder’s collection is
often difficult to impossible. Snakes are bought and sold so easily on the Web and at shows, and new snake breeders start
up literally overnight. Plus the vast majority of snakes that die in a collection never undergo a necropsy or thorough work-up.
Breeders often don’t provide information on all diseases and pathogens seen in their collections over time. Every collection
inevitably has animals that do not do well and die of various problems. No collection is pathogen-free. So buyer beware, and
do your best to select animals from well-established, recognized breeders rather than purchasing animals because they are
selling for a very good price.
Quarantining new animals is essential, too. I recommend a quarantine period of at least 90 days. I have quarantined some
new animals up to six months. Ideally, quarantined animals should be in a building separate from your main collection. A
true quarantine is when all new animals enter the quarantine facility on the same day and leave on the same day.
Blood samples are the easiest tissue sample to collect, and films can be checked for the presence of IBD inclusions in cells.
If snakekeepers have the financial resources, biopsies can be obtained from a snake’s tonsils, liver and kidneys. This
certainly is not practical to do in all situations, but such before-death diagnostics improve the owner’s ability to identify an
infected animal. In the end, the cost of such quarantine programs and the use of these diagnostics depend on either the
money snakekeepers have to spend or the importance they attach to such preventative medicine programs. You can lead a
horse to water, but you sure can’t make it drink.
Finally, obviously ill snakes should never be entered into the established collection. Only well-feeding animals in excellent
condition should be added after the quarantine period is over. And make sure none are mite-infested. Many other things can
be done within the context of a preventative medicine program, but that topic is for another article to address. "
 
Tattoo,

For those of us not BLBC-savvy, would you please post the link to the discussion there (I know it was posted earlier in this looooong thread but I'm on some terrific drugs since I shattered my ankle yesterday and I'd probably fall asleep looking for it!)?

My interest from the beginning has been the snake's well-being. I would love to hear how it is doing. Toni's determination, almost from the get-go, to euthanise the animal strikes me as very suspect. Her refusal to accept Debbie's offer seems even more so. She can certainly pursue legal action if she desires, but a) no court is going to allow her to both keep/kill the animal AND get the money; b) the court will find it as suspicious as most of us here do that, for someone so worried about IBD that she won't even QT the animal at home, she has shown next to no concern for quarantining the snakes that were included in that shipment away from her collection, and c) good luck trying to purchase from or sell to anyone here in the future. She's really coming across as pretty vindictive and unconcerned with the snake's needs and best interests at this point. I ain't saying it IS so; I'm saying it
LOOKS so. But it's not just me who thinks this.

I can sympathize with both parties from the standpoints of a new baby with complications AND with chronic, serious personal health issues; but certainly not with the manner in which this business has been conducted, particularly by Toni. Really, if you're going to start a debate like this in a public forum, you'd better be prepared to keep coming back to explain and/or defend yourself, or else, as Toni has no doubt learned, you look very shady.

Sorry timebider. Here's the link.

http://www.reptileradio.net/reptileradio/showthread.php?t=6359
 
Interesting

Well Toni wants proof there is nothing that the snake or it's traveling companions will pass onto her collection -- she wants to be able to bring the other snakes home

Tosha,
You seem to be privy to information that has been asked repeatedly throughout this thread, your above quote seems to confirm you know where the other two snakes are, so here it goes.

WHERE ARE THE OTHER TWO SNAKES BEING HOUSED?????
1.) Are they at Toni's house????
2.) Are they at the vet with the other snake? (could this be the reason for not sharing the vet bills with Debbie?)
3.) If not 1 or 2, then WHERE?????
 
I was asked here by one of the parties to participate in this thread -- I am being questioned by the others in this thread as to my thoughts and observations -- what is your reason for being here?

I'm here for ----'s and giggles! :thumbsup:
 
testing a live snake does not always show if there is a problem you need to test the brain to be 100% sure

Show me and others where you got that information from.
I have never heard that or seen that done in necropsies I have witnessed.


Randal Berry
 
As I mentioned before there were some of us that where Toni's sounding block through this mess with Debbie. We heard the lame excuses and the lies and offered suggestions and support before this became a BOI matter. No Toni did not ask me to be here to give any information just support and focus. I do not speak on Toni's behalf nor do I know fully her intentions.

As for the other snakes they are not being housed at Toni's or the vets. This has already been stated.

As of this post Debbie has not asked for any confirmation that the snake described in the report from the vet is the one that she sent Toni. I would not expect a vet, even a reptile vet, to know ball python morphs. As I stated in the other thread I believe that if she does ask then she should be provided that confirmation. Upon receiving that confirmation she should issue the refund and the associated vet costs -- I believe that a necropsy should be done to find out exactly what is wrong with the snake and I believe that Debbie should have done this herself in February but being that she didn't I think it is a fair compromise that Toni pay for it.

I also believe that due to the fact that Debbie reneged repeated on the written and verbal terms of this sale -- she doesn't have a leg to stand on in court if it should go there. I would expect that given the breaches of contract and the condition of the animal a judge would likely award most costs to Toni and order the snake to be put down anyway. But who knows funny things happen in court.

And now I am officially done beating this dead horse.
 
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