One eyed albino boa, should I kill him?

[hhmoore]

If all three were from the same litter, most would warn against breeding any of them. Congenital anomolies that are expressed in a litter are likely carried by other members of the litter. That doesn't mean that they would all carry it - there is really no way to be certain which ones (if any) do - but sound breeding practice would dictate not risking the further spread of the problems. Of course, lack of that is thought to be part of the reason the eye issues are as widespread as they are.

 

[addicted]

Ridiculous

If your son or daughter was born with one eye would you put your offspring down.same thing if it is healthy let it live even if it takes special care.

 

[kmurphy]

Actually what is ridiculous is comparing your children to your snakes.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Cull. Cull the one with the eye problem, cull all it's siblings and seperate the parent animals, never use them as breeders ever again with one another or any other animal.

The reason that eye deformities are so common in albino boas and projects that have been linked to them is because unscrupulous individuals used deformed animals and their siblings as breeders even after it was determined to have a genetic cause linked to the Kahl line. The only ethical thing to do, for the animals in question and more importantly for the entire captive population is to take any animals known to be carriers and any animals directly related to them and remove them from the breeding population. The only way to be certain this is accomplished is the terminal one, since sterilization of a snake weighing a few ounces as a neonate just isn't practical or particularly possible. Sterilize the parent animals and keep them as pets- euthanize the neonates. ALL of them, not just the couple who are displaying the eye problem.

 

[hhmoore]

Actually what is ridiculous is comparing your children to your snakes.

Culling "defective" babies from a litter is far from a new idea, though not as common as it used to be. Heck, (since so many people like to make the comparison to dogs) it wasn't too long ago that certain COLORS of dogs were culled at birth. It was due to a combination of factors, including a link between that color and congenital problems (deafness being one of them). Apply it to "investment" animals, and here is the situation as it may have played out:
A breeding produced a small number of defective animals out of an otherwise healthy appearing litter. This defect is thought to be inherited (this may or may not be known in the earliest stages). The stakes are high, so what do you do???
- Keep the babies and raise them as pets, never to be bred? (easy enough with one or two, but factor in multiple litters over several years, THEN think about it).
- Offer them out as "pets" and not for breeding, at a greatly reduced price? This carries two issues - 1) it publicizes that you have inheritable defects in your animals...not a good thing if this is how you are making your living, 2) it further increases the likelihood that somebody will see the chance at $$ and breed it anyway, spreading the weak genes and exacerbating the problem
- Cull the defective ones, and hope for the best.
- Cull all of the neonates
Remember, albino boas are just becoming affordable and "mainstream". 3-4 years ago, how many people were considering shelling out the bucks they commanded to have a cool looking pet? For the people that purchased them 8-10 (or more) years ago, the investment was not small...*as a result, too few took the most responsible step and stopped breeding the parent animals that produced the defects. Most probably just culled the defects and sold the sibs (or in some cases kept them for future breeding)

 

[hhmoore]

Perfect timing, Seamus.

 

[christopher66]

Cull. Cull the one with the eye problem, cull all it's siblings and seperate the parent animals, never use them as breeders ever again with one another or any other animal.

The reason that eye deformities are so common in albino boas and projects that have been linked to them is because unscrupulous individuals used deformed animals and their siblings as breeders even after it was determined to have a genetic cause linked to the Kahl line. The only ethical thing to do, for the animals in question and more importantly for the entire captive population is to take any animals known to be carriers and any animals directly related to them and remove them from the breeding population. The only way to be certain this is accomplished is the terminalone, since sterilization of a snake weighing a few ounces as a neonate just isn't practical or particularly possible. Sterilize the parent animals and keep them as pets- euthanize the neonates. ALL of them, not just the couple who are displaying the eye problem.

Thats the reality of life and death,straight to the point,no pussy footing around.

 

[reptikes]

If my son was missing an eye, i wouldn't put him down. You should appriciate that snake all that much more.
thanks Mike

 

[paulh]

I can see a lot of logic on both sides of the issue. I also think that there is a lot of unsupported guesswork in the background.

In pigs, a vitamin deficiency in the mother can cause congenital eye problems. If I had a brother sister pair of albino boas with eye problems, I would raise them with the best nutrition I could give them and breed them to see whether the babies had eye problems and if so, what percentage. If the problem is genetic, I would expect all the babies to have eye problems. If none or only some had eye problems, I would think that environment is all or most of the cause. And any genetic involvement is far more complex than simple Mendelian genetics.

 

[liquidleaf]

Unfortunately, Paul, genetic defects do not work that way. Just like other mutant properties, not all of a litter may have the same genetic code that triggers a defect (just like not all of the babies of a het albino x het albino litter will be albino). Also, it's common for albinos to have eye defects, which means that an unknown, undesirable eye defect may commonly pair (or be associated) with albino genes.... like deafness that sometimes occurs with all-white dogs. I have to disagree with you in the vitamin deficiency theory. If this was the case, you'd see a heck of a lot more one-eyed NORMAL boas, in my opinion. Inbreeding causes abnormal genes and symptoms to surface more often - look at the increased occurences six-fingered hands of Amish and Mennonite populations that have had inbreeding.

 

[Clay Davenport]

I have stated my opinion on this subject in the past as well. It's not popular with some, but that's not my concern.
The fact is that snake should never be allowed into the breeding population. That leaves ONLY two choices in reality.
1. You make the decision to keep the snake, until it's natural death, in your collection where it is under your control, and never breed it.
2. The snake is euthanized.

People can say, "sell it as a pet only" all they want, but in reality this does not work. Perhaps the person you sell it to won't breed it, but either that person or another future owner will view the snake as a cheap method of producing albinos and those genes will likely be passed on.
A breeder has to assume that every snake he sells will at some point be bred, or at least the attempt be made. In today's world virtually everyone with a pair of cornsnakes thinks they have to breed them, and an albino boa, with the increased value of the offspring only increases this possibility.

It was the greed of early breeders that caused this deformity to be as common as it is today. Back when albino boas were selling for several thousand dollars, a breeder would knock a couple grand off the price of a one eyed specimen and sell it anyway. Many people saw this as a cheaper way to buy into the morph and it only ensured that it would proliferate.

I don't like having to euthanize animals anymore than any one else does. Heck I don't even like killing rats for feeders. But the fact is if you choose to become a breeder this is a responsibility you take on, despite the fact that some breeders refuse to accept it. You have the responsibility of protecting, if not improving, captive bloodlines. Part of this is eliminating genes such as the one seen here.

As far as comparing a one eyed snake to a one eyed child, that's just rediculous and has absolutely no relevancy to the discussion.

 

[Mokele]

And any genetic involvement is far more complex than simple Mendelian genetics.

Well, not strictly, in that it will still adhere to Mendel's laws.

Part of the issue is developmental stability. During development, things can go wrong for lots of reasons, genetic and environmental, but the developmental process is actually pretty good about tolerating these fluctuations. But if the inbred animal has just a few too many bad genes, or whatever environmental cause was just a bit too intense, then the tolerances are exceeded, and the developmental process is disrupted.

What this means is that not all offspring will be deformed, and the extent of deformity may even depend on environmental factors (since adding in environmental and genetic disruptions could push the developmental process past its tolerance) to a limited extent.

However, the more these animals and their sibs are bred, the worse it's going to get, as inbreeding causes deleterious mutations to continually accumulate.

2) it further increases the likelihood that somebody will see the chance at $$ and breed it anyway, spreading the weak genes and exacerbating the problem

I'd like to add to this something else: Even though the genetically damaged individuals will have a reduced lifespan, boas still live a *long* time. You might trust that the person you sell it to won't breed it, but what about the next owner, and the one after, and so on and so forth? Pretty soon it's the Six Degrees of One-eyed-snake, and someone will just dismiss it as caused by fluctuating temperatures during development and try to breed it.

Mokele

 

[evansnakes]

It is common in albino boas over the years that some are born with one eye or no eye. You don't kill them if they are healthy, but you do not breed them either. I used to sell them at a reduced price to people who wanted them for a pet that would not breed them. They really don't use the eyes much anyway. The tonuge is much more important. Evan

 

[Clay Davenport]

I used to sell them at a reduced price to people who wanted them for a pet that would not breed them.

I think the problem with this approach has already been covered. It's virtually guaranteed that at least a percentage of those "pets" are now parents or grandparents. I'm sure at least a couple of those people who claimed they just wanted a pet had full intention of breeding it at the time of purchase and just saw it as a cheaper way to produce albinos.

They really don't use the eyes much anyway. The tonuge is much more important.

Whether they have need of the missing eye is not the issue, it's whether the genes will be allowed to be passed on. Once the snake leaves your possession you have no control over whether it's bred or not, whether it be by the initial purchaser or another future owner 7 years form now.

 

[boabob]

I would keep him as a pet...That moron has no clue what hes talking about!!!

 

[Junkyard]

Bill, the question comes down to "What do you want to do with these snakes?"

 

[Great Lakes Reptiles]

Bill, the question comes down to "What do you want to do with these snakes?"

I know the albinos never going to be a breeder, but as for the females, Im realy feeling down about them, I guess there all just pets at this point, bad investment I guess

 

[hhmoore]

One thing to point out - regardless of anyone's feeling on the concept of breeders culling defective animals, that is not the case here. These animals were not culled, but sold. The initial poster spent money on them, they are his. He should keep them as non-breeding pets. At this point, destroying them (even for the rationale explained by Seamus & Clay) would not, IMO, be considered culling. Now, it would be something akin to euthanasia of an unwanted pet.

 

[Clay Davenport]

You're absolutely correct Harald. In this instance, he has purchased the snake, and stated that he has no intention of breeding it. To put it down would serve no purpose. He should however commit to keeping the snake for it's entire life, and enjoying it as a beautiful pet.

We got a little sidetracked on the issue and our comments were more toward the whole aspect of selling these snakes and not his situation specifically.
The person who produced those snakes should have never offered them for sale, they should have been culled.
It is the breeder's responsibility to cull an animal. Should the breeder refuse to accept this and sell the snakes anyway, it is the purchasers responsibility not to allow it to reproduce. It all starts with the breeder though, and in the end it's the breeders that are to blame for how common this deformity is.

The other option is to just send them to me. With my boa breeding track record, that's the best way to know they aren't going to reproduce

 

[floridaboy85]

The other option is to just send them to me. With my boa breeding track record, that's the best way to know they aren't going to reproduce

LOL

At this point they are pets only. IMO, they should have been culled. Contracts,IMO, are worthless in this "hobby" or "business", there are plenty of examples of this on the BOI. You cant trust that someone isn't going to breed that snake later down the road.

Now i have a question and maybe I missed the answer above. I have read about the eye defect manifesting it's self in different ways. I have read about missing eyes and I've heard of bad eyes to where there is something (skin?) covering the eye that comes off later and the eye seams fine. All of these I have read about is in albinos(never hets from what i have read). So to my question, is it only a genetic defect when there is a missing eye or is the "bad eye" also genetic??