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One eyed albino boa, should I kill him?
- Thread starter Great Lakes Reptiles
- Start date
SenorSnake
New member
I'm getting into this one a little late, and I must admit I haven't read the posts so this may have already been said...
This is our first year breeding albinos (hetxhet breedings) and we discussed that if there were any missing eyes, etc. that we would talk to our vet and see if it was possible to get them fixed, then sell them for enough to cover the surgery to someone who just wants an albino as a pet/display piece, or sell as pet only and have the buyer sign a no-breed contract.
If it was obviously a genetic problem, and not an issue with the incubating process we'd also not try the pairing again...
This is our first year breeding albinos (hetxhet breedings) and we discussed that if there were any missing eyes, etc. that we would talk to our vet and see if it was possible to get them fixed, then sell them for enough to cover the surgery to someone who just wants an albino as a pet/display piece, or sell as pet only and have the buyer sign a no-breed contract.
If it was obviously a genetic problem, and not an issue with the incubating process we'd also not try the pairing again...
Welcome to Fauna Jamie!
I don't think you will find a vet that would be ready to perform such a surgery; and if there was, the cost would probably astronomical. As far as signing a no-breeding contract...a person willing to honor that commitment doesn't need to sign it, and a person not willing to honor it will not be stopped by a piece of paper.
Just my thoughts.
Regards.
I don't think you will find a vet that would be ready to perform such a surgery; and if there was, the cost would probably astronomical. As far as signing a no-breeding contract...a person willing to honor that commitment doesn't need to sign it, and a person not willing to honor it will not be stopped by a piece of paper.
Just my thoughts.
Regards.
SenorSnake
New member
It'd be interesting to find out. I have to have an exotic canine neutered soon so I'll ask our exotics vet if it is possible to sterlize a snake, and the approximate cost of such a procedure... of course, i'll post the verdict after I find out. He's always dealt with our boas (and always has been very good with them), I figure if anyone in the Chicago area could do it it'd be him. And thanks for the welcome!
Jamie
Jamie
crotalusadamanteus
Brother Infidel
SenorSnake said:
I had a male BP rescue that had both hemipenes everted, and left that way. They dried up, and when I got him, I thought at first it was worms of some kind.
Long story short, the penes were removed completely, and the BP in question is still going strong with his new mommy. In that aspect, I am sure this BP cannot breed without his jewels, so perhaps it is an area to concider. ???
Sure wouldn't want it done to me though, not that I use the thing anymore. HA HA
Females however, I would imagine it being a costly procedure, I just don't know, but the BP thing only ran me about $150 total for a male.
I sure wouldn't trust something like that to ANY exotic vet. It would have to be a REPTILE vet before I would even concider it.
My $0.025
Rick
DNA Morphs
New member
Take it for what is is worth. We at DNA morphs have bought and have had great success with a 1 eyed snake. Was he / she born with only one eye or was it due to injury. If you are looking at letting this snake go please call me at 1-719-836-0132. If it is eatting and anything besides a retic or anaconda I would love a change to breed him and see if it is something that shows up alot or just a freak thing with this one. PLEAS IF YOU STILL HAVE HIM / HER AND WISH TO MAKE A GOOD DEAL WE AT DNA MORPHS ARE VERY INTERESTED IN OBTAINING THIS ANIMAL.
DAN
1-719-836-013
[email protected]
DAN
1-719-836-013
[email protected]
SenorSnake
New member
I think DNA missed the point. Now I know one less place to get hets/albinos from.
Cat_72
Back from exile :)
Dan, not trying to be condescending here, as I am a newbie to boas myself, so please don't take this wrong.....but how much do you know about the genetics of albino boas, and the reasons NOT to use this animal for breeding?
Dan,
There's not much to "discover" there. Please do a search. There's plenty of information in the topic. The only thing you will be able to prove is that people will be reluctant to buy from a person who is willingly buying boas with eye defects. Just trust the research that's out there, the trait is hereditary...
Regards,
There's not much to "discover" there. Please do a search. There's plenty of information in the topic. The only thing you will be able to prove is that people will be reluctant to buy from a person who is willingly buying boas with eye defects. Just trust the research that's out there, the trait is hereditary...
Regards,
Seamus Haley
Big Game Hunter
Anyone who may have voted for keeping it alive starting to see why I favor the permanant solution when culling?
There's really only one practical way to keep a reptile out of the breeding population and be 100% sure that the goal has been accomplished.
There's really only one practical way to keep a reptile out of the breeding population and be 100% sure that the goal has been accomplished.
SenorSnake
New member
Crazy that after the whole post anyone would reply with such a proposition.
I still think its fine if you never sell it, or if you get it fixed (which i know can be pricey, but if you can find someone before the procedure to buy it fixed and is willing to pay the price of the procedure to get the snake) But I agree, I would kill the snake before selling it to someone who would breed it.
I still think its fine if you never sell it, or if you get it fixed (which i know can be pricey, but if you can find someone before the procedure to buy it fixed and is willing to pay the price of the procedure to get the snake) But I agree, I would kill the snake before selling it to someone who would breed it.
Slithering Serpents
New member
OK that guy who said he wanted to breed it made up my mind. I also can't believe that that person read this whole thread and still is of the mind to breed a one eyed albino. With people like that out there you have to kill it. It's that simple. The word is cull. You have to cull albino babies with bad eyes. Because even if you give the snake as a pet to one person, there is no guarantee that it will stay with hat person for the rest of it's natural life. Snakes live a long time, and there will always be people like that person. People who don't understand that the albino gene is a flawed gene. I sure hope this person read ALL these posts in an attempt to see why. All breeders should make an attempt to read about albinos in other species if they want to understand this. In dogs, the albino gene is so flawed there are no albinos for sale. In people it's a flawed gene. Look in all the species where albinism occurs and you'll see whats up with this. It isn't just another pretty color for boas, it is a genetic screw up, one with consequences. I urge you all to cull screwed up babies period. I am not a cold person, I love boas, but what you do now will effect boa breeding for the rest of time.
*sigh*
Caden Chapman
*sigh*
Caden Chapman
paulh
New member
"You see a lot on the forums about people breeding albinos to albino and how you have problems with that. I am a Biologist.. I believe in statistics. We have produced multiple litters of albino to albino, and only had problems with one baby." Tracy Barker, Sunglow Boa interview with Tracy Barker!, Interviews forum, www.redtailboa.net.
Seems that the Barkers have somehow managed to avoid the hazards of breeding albino x albino. Can we learn something from them?
As far as I know, the claim that albino eye problems are genetic has gone from a guess to a conclusion without ever being tested. I think testing should be done.
Seems that the Barkers have somehow managed to avoid the hazards of breeding albino x albino. Can we learn something from them?
As far as I know, the claim that albino eye problems are genetic has gone from a guess to a conclusion without ever being tested. I think testing should be done.
Paul,
There's a link in the GBD forum to extensive studies conducted in albino individuals. They all describe the same things we witness in albino boas. The way you can get away with it is by outbreeding (as opposed to inbreeding) your animals. You have to introduce new genes in your genetic pool rather than breed the same animals to each other over and over again.
Regards.
Slithering Serpents
New member
The whole point here is to make the albino strain strong by outcrossing, and to avoid genetic defects. Just because one breeder has has only one problem (with how many breeding of albino X albino I wonder, you'll note that she doesn't say). She doesn't say she recommends breeding with a genetic defect, much less recommending breeding albino to albino. That interview was from back when the first sunglows were made! AND she HAD a defective baby!!! Wake up!!
No doubt there are other breeders who had no problems, but then there are others who have had big problems. None of these were using an albino with one eye either. What do you suppose that does to the statistical outcome, using a breeder with a known serious defect like that? What about babies who contain the genetics to made one-eyed-wonders, and will keep passing that on? Now is the time to get all those snakes with the genetic propensity for making these freaks out of the gene pool. There is no need to breed these animals. There are plenty of healthy albinos and hets. Why would you want to make screwed up beings? Why would you do that? Think.
If I had a serious genetic disability, I wouldn't want to take a chance of giving that to my kids, I would adopt. So why on earth would you want to make screwed up little critters of the type we love here? For money????
Caden Chapman
No doubt there are other breeders who had no problems, but then there are others who have had big problems. None of these were using an albino with one eye either. What do you suppose that does to the statistical outcome, using a breeder with a known serious defect like that? What about babies who contain the genetics to made one-eyed-wonders, and will keep passing that on? Now is the time to get all those snakes with the genetic propensity for making these freaks out of the gene pool. There is no need to breed these animals. There are plenty of healthy albinos and hets. Why would you want to make screwed up beings? Why would you do that? Think.
If I had a serious genetic disability, I wouldn't want to take a chance of giving that to my kids, I would adopt. So why on earth would you want to make screwed up little critters of the type we love here? For money????
Caden Chapman
paulh
New member
BoidSmith, the only link I could find in the General Business Discussion forum was this one:
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45406
If this is not the one you meant, could you post the URL?
Caden, I don't like one-eyed snakes. I am not arguing either against culling the one-eyed albinos or for making more. My whole point is that we need testing to determine whether or not the eye problems are in fact genetic. At this point, we just don't know. If the problems are not genetic, then hopefully we can correct whatever causes one-eyed albinos. If the problems are genetic, then we will be able to figure out just what steps are necessary to get the snakes with the genetic propensity out of the gene pool.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45406
If this is not the one you meant, could you post the URL?
Caden, I don't like one-eyed snakes. I am not arguing either against culling the one-eyed albinos or for making more. My whole point is that we need testing to determine whether or not the eye problems are in fact genetic. At this point, we just don't know. If the problems are not genetic, then hopefully we can correct whatever causes one-eyed albinos. If the problems are genetic, then we will be able to figure out just what steps are necessary to get the snakes with the genetic propensity out of the gene pool.
Paul,
No, it’s this one.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19880&highlight=taking+toll
Over three years ago I started to keep track of all the eye defects that were popping up in the ads. It’s a pretty long thread but there are some pretty good insights by several members in there.
Towards the end I posted the following link, where it describes the heritability of the traits in humans and all the different anomalies that can be seen.
http://www.opt.pacificu.edu/ce/catalog/COPE7522/ImpairmentPeds.html
Regards
No, it’s this one.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19880&highlight=taking+toll
Over three years ago I started to keep track of all the eye defects that were popping up in the ads. It’s a pretty long thread but there are some pretty good insights by several members in there.
Towards the end I posted the following link, where it describes the heritability of the traits in humans and all the different anomalies that can be seen.
http://www.opt.pacificu.edu/ce/catalog/COPE7522/ImpairmentPeds.html
Regards
crotalusadamanteus
Brother Infidel
Metachrosis said:
Did it now?
Dan, (from DNA), just curious what kind of numbers you've had? How many litters? How many albino x albino? And how many healthy albino babies vs how many bad?
I may doubt, (somewhat) the validity of the claim, (yes, even after all I have read) that this is FOR SURE caused by the albino gene. But there is not a doubt in my mind, that once the defect has been discovered in a neo, that it should be culled, and not allowed on the market at all. Yer logic, I just don't get.
Rick
He dropped a few clues as to where and where NOT to shop, no telling what kinda creature youll end up with 
M/
no telling what kinda creature youll end up with M/
paulh
New member
Thanks for the URLs, Dan. I had a look at both the faunaclassifieds thread and the vision abnormality page.
The vision page had a number of problems caused by albinism. But I didn't see anything about missing eyes as a direct effect. So it's weak support for the genetics theory.
I hit the library and found a malady that can cause small and missing eyes. Other problems include lacrimation, lung abcesses with a tendency to develop pneumonia, cancellous (porous) bone, restriction of brain cavity, papilledema (which is swelling of the optic disc, where the optic nerve enters the eyeball; it is usually associated with an increase in intraocular pressure ). And on and on for a list 6 inches long in small type.
The malady is vitamin A deficiency. "Vitamin A is necessary for normal vision in animals and humans, maintenance of healthy epithelial or surface tissues and normal bone development." (P. 48 in McDowell, Lee Russell. Vitamins in animals and human nutrition. Iowa State University Press, Ames. 2nd ed., 2000, 793 pp, ISBN 0-8138-2630-6.)
Hmm. Spinal kinking in corn snakes could be related to abnormal bone formation. Bug eyes in leucistic Texas rat snakes could be related to elevated intraocular pressure.
I am not claiming that vitamin A deficiency is the one and only source of various congenital problems in snakes. I just think vitamin A deficiency should go on the list of POSSIBLE causes that need testing.
By the way, I seem to remember that someone earlier in this thread wrote that we don't see any really old albino boas. Kahl first bred the original male in 1990 and got his first albino babies in 1992. Which would make his first hets 16 years old and the first captive bred albinos 14 years old now. The original F1s and F2s could still be breeding. The original wild caught male would be in the low 20s if it is still around. In other words, only the original wild caught albino(s) came in long enough ago to be pretty old. And babies from the original F1s would be desirable from a standpoint of minimal inbreeding depression.
The vision page had a number of problems caused by albinism. But I didn't see anything about missing eyes as a direct effect. So it's weak support for the genetics theory.
I hit the library and found a malady that can cause small and missing eyes. Other problems include lacrimation, lung abcesses with a tendency to develop pneumonia, cancellous (porous) bone, restriction of brain cavity, papilledema (which is swelling of the optic disc, where the optic nerve enters the eyeball; it is usually associated with an increase in intraocular pressure ). And on and on for a list 6 inches long in small type.
The malady is vitamin A deficiency. "Vitamin A is necessary for normal vision in animals and humans, maintenance of healthy epithelial or surface tissues and normal bone development." (P. 48 in McDowell, Lee Russell. Vitamins in animals and human nutrition. Iowa State University Press, Ames. 2nd ed., 2000, 793 pp, ISBN 0-8138-2630-6.)
Hmm. Spinal kinking in corn snakes could be related to abnormal bone formation. Bug eyes in leucistic Texas rat snakes could be related to elevated intraocular pressure.
I am not claiming that vitamin A deficiency is the one and only source of various congenital problems in snakes. I just think vitamin A deficiency should go on the list of POSSIBLE causes that need testing.
By the way, I seem to remember that someone earlier in this thread wrote that we don't see any really old albino boas. Kahl first bred the original male in 1990 and got his first albino babies in 1992. Which would make his first hets 16 years old and the first captive bred albinos 14 years old now. The original F1s and F2s could still be breeding. The original wild caught male would be in the low 20s if it is still around. In other words, only the original wild caught albino(s) came in long enough ago to be pretty old. And babies from the original F1s would be desirable from a standpoint of minimal inbreeding depression.