One More Reason to Test for Adenovirus

[Denisebme]

Correction...

I just received an email from Dr. Jacobson asking if I would be willing to particpate in studies while keeping my animals here! You guys, this is so exciting!!! This virus really is still being studied!!!

When I replied to Dr. Jacobson, I asked him if there is a way for us to donate for research, and if so, where we could do so. Hopefully, I'll have an answer for that soon, and will post whatever I find out.

Oh, I'm just so happy I get to keep them here, but still help!!!

That is absolutely terrific!!!!! I'm also excited that you get to keep them with you while being allowed to participate, what a win-win situation!!!

 

[PaulSage]

Tere Salazar, the Bearded Dragon Hero. You've done good, Tere. Again, I'm so sorry that you're going through this, but I can't praise you enough for having the courage and decency to help put a little steam behind combatting this virus.

 

[trapieter]

trapieter

I just noticed that you are in the UK, I know that this has started showing up a lot in dragons that were imported to the UK from the US the past two years, have you seen the post about that on the UK sites?

to be honest I haven't seen a particular post on the uk sites on adenovirus, actually there is not too much info on uk forums from what I have seen... most point back to reptile rooms which is where I go along with fauna and a couple of uk forums for my information.. it's more rounded that way.
However I know that alot of breeders import, so I'm sure the virus would have been spread but probably hasn't been picked up upon as much as it in the usa, which is a worry to me. I was about to look into this myself to see if there was a uk version of this going on and research too. it would be interesting to see. hopefully not shocking.

 

[CheriS]

Joanna,

Sent you an email with a UK group, please let me know if you did not get it. I wish you all across the pond better luck in containing this then the US did.

I have had some emails from some other fairly sizable breeders that have tested and said they would be posting on this or another thread shortly. I think if they do we will all see some very interesting data on statistics of positives with newer breeders this past year -opposed to breeders with older colonies.

 

[mikey]

We're on post #186 and I last posted on #123 ... 63 post ago, because I know on here if threads get to long, people stop reading them and they are counter productive. 20 of us in a chat channel one night were talking about something on this thread and I said I would PM her and lets see how long it takes before someone else heard what was said in that PM. As you can see it was less than 24 hours Bla bla bla twisted words bla bla bla sob story bla bla bla my position bla bla bla my opinion bla bla bla GAWD, Don't ya just love someone with enough knowledge to be dangerous to others and decent breeders !! bla bla bla bla

Um, OK Cheri, Whatever you say. Sounds like a good story, stick with it.

Shall I get permission to post the PM's, then you can answer in the open with FACTS to support the information you stated.

If certain breeders are doing what you have stated, why are they listed on the Bearded Dragon Breeders and Suppliers Network still? Are you not the administrator for that?


I have tried to read everything I could find that has been posted as reference. What has changed in the last 5+ years? In all the years of collecting data, posting info, and calling out breeders.. what has been the progress? I feel the talk is getting cheap, with very little progress made forward. If this is such a epidemic, why have you not pushed to have adenovirus information even put on basic care sheets? Something that simple could make a huge difference. With all the information posted on your website, where is the push for current research. You are still referencing the exact same data from 2002-03'. I would think obtaining research with current data would be your #1 agenda and raising funds your priority. If breeder's refuse to test or share their testing results, shouldn't your focus and energy shift to educating the buyer and obtaining published facts. All the jaw flapping, I need to see more action.

'' I would also rather refer people to you for information on donations and ideas to impliment.'' I agree.... Tere and/or Wendy have both recently experienced the effects first hand, have no history of putting off anyone nor driving wedges, and could really jumpstart this into something productive.

"because I know on here if threads get to long, people stop reading them and they are counter productive." Sorry, but I disagree.. I think this is one of the most honest, compelling, productive thread on this subject to date.

 

[Dachiu]

Cheri, for you to assume that you “know on here if threads get to long, people stop reading them and they are counter productive” is insulting to those who have contributed to the 8000+ views on this thread. But I’m not about to pacify you on this comment

And for you to PM someone that neither of us knows with the crap you did about us and other breeders as some sort of test - just shows how manipulative you really are. In addition, there was more than one PM sent by you to various people. How many people on here have become your test subjects in total?

Claiming to have not spoken to a biologist - is a lie. And denying that a virologists information was not also presented to you in that conversation - is just another blatant lie. You are a liar.

You want to manipulate people, dragons and information. Your opinions are repeated so frequently that people now just assume that they are factual and the way things should be. Many of the expectations that you put on people and their animals are detrimental to the community. There are still a few of us around who remember your crusade on coccidia - it absolutely had to be eliminated from all captive dragons - they should NOT have it. You had smaller breeders and newbies dosing their dragons left and right. Guess what?
Albon, albon, albon = fungus, fungus, fungus.

5 years ago we saw errors and holes in the information that was being presented and felt the plan that was being proposed was inadequate. We told you this and that we had spoken with a few breeders back then that had other theories/suspicions. Dan outlined indicators (which we did not see) and the initial information that was presented was NOT followed up - No additional information was forthcoming from Dr. Wentz. The only thing the breeders/community were left with were the very sporadic reports of a viral outbreak, with no pertinent details (until Wendy) and the ever-evolving “Symptoms” article which shows a lack of understanding of this virus and the species itself...

We aren’t saying that what has been done in regards to adenovirus is wrong - just that it has been done with tunnel-vision by being focused on who has it; rather than the facts of it.

How Pathogenic Viruses Work, by L. Sompayrac, P.5
“the diseases that viruses cause are the (usually unintended) consequences of the way each virus has chosen to solve the three problems of reproduction, spread and evasion. What this means is that once you understand how a particular virus solves it’s three problems you should be able to predict the pathological consequences of the viral infection.”

Adenovirus is not a disease - it is a virus that can progress or promote disease if given the opportune circumstances.

I can not ever remember stating anything you posted is irrelevant except the human/child adeno information which I think most people know reptile, other mammals and human virus are extremely different. That has been a common discussion many times in chat channel, emails and PM's, again, no big secret nor am I denying it.

This is the biggest misconception you could possibly present to anyone. Adenoviruses have the same goal and may work in a similar fashion to achieve that goal in the host - whatever the host may be. There are similarities in how the adenovirus itself may effect various hosts and also the situations which may escalate it to illness.

In humans it effects the young - similarly in dragons it effects the young. Would any of us dare to expect our children to defecate and eat off of the same surface? Certainly not - that would re-expose them to the virus and raise the levels to the roof. But that is exactly what we expect our dragons to do.

Take the latest outbreaks of adenovirus in the military population. This was attributed mostly to crowded conditions and stress. Crowded conditions would promote re-exposure and stress which can lower the immune system. I would think that housing many dragons in small enclosure would be considered crowded conditions. These animals in the wild would normally go their merry way and forcing them to do otherwise can create a stressful situation. These conditions seem fairly similar.


And this is information that Cheri deems irrelevant?

 

[Viss]

(My post in one small bit... TEST THEM ALL)

Alright, I may not be as eloquent as many on this thread, but I wanted to throw my honest opinion out there...

First of all, You'll notice there are very few new people entering these conversations, and many likely stopped reading after the first few pages of consolations... So I highly doubt many people have actually made it to this last page to read.

Now I do not currently own any dragons, but I'm doing quite a bit of research on the subject over the past week or so and will continue to do so. I can say, after reading... That I will NOT purchase Dragons from anywhere that does not state they've been tested, and would highly drive away any and all business I personally can towards Dachiu due to the pure fact that it's constant bickering when testing simply NEEDS to be done. Who cares if they look healthy, It's a virus and therefor we need to help the cause rather than sit by doing nothing.

Consider AIDS in the human world... What is a good reason NOT to test for such things? This is comparable to the same things that we're hearing now about Adenovirus it seems...

Now, if this isn't what the argument is about... then WHO CARES!!?!?! The bickering is annoying at best honestly. Get the Dragons tested, and get this issue under control. Just because a Dragon isn't human, doesn't mean it deserves lesser treatment.

Finally... CheriS... b/c of the sides, you're the one I trust in (Due to factual information,) could you guide me towards any breeders that do test for this virus and changed their ways knowingly? I'm open to On-line Breeders and would prefer such in most cases.

P.S. Please excuse me for anything specific, be it Forum rules I may have broken, or people I may have upset while throwing this information in here. This is my first post on the site, as I was simply looking for recommended Breeders and just removed one from my potential list thankfully.

Thanks for your time... - Jeremy

 

[whiskersmom]

I'm with Jeremy on this.....where's the harm in testing?
Why not test so that when you sell your dragons, you are able to tell the consumer if they are buying an infected one or a non infected one. I mean, what's the difference if it's like coccidia? This just makes people wonder what you might be trying to hide, Vicki???

 

[walker75]

Vicki says

Adenovirus is not a disease - it is a virus that can progress or promote disease if given the opportune circumstances.


Just so you know Vicki I am a newbie ... One who has done alot of research much like Viss is doing now.

I went to alot alot of sites looking for information. I do not take yours or Cheri's word I read . I searched I asked questions.

What I did find was the way alot of breeders offer information
as to parents and grandparents willingness to share that information.

Not taking the breeders word for anything especially breeding which dragon to which dragon or family.

Maybe I got lucky b/c this was the third time this was talked about. I also liked the way the ones who have come forth did so in a manner to educate and become aware.

There are crosses that are Positive this I know for a fact as others if reading can determine that also. And from which crosses and whom.

People can stay silent and not say they have this to futher the knowledge of the Virus but it stops us from learning more by being silent.

Your constant dancing and jig dance is insulting to me ..,

as I point out asked you Questions that you did not answer nor will you..

This is a Virus and as such Vicki the opportune circomstances would be

NOT TO BREED ADENO POSITIVE dragons and sell them without stating that they are.

Or contribute like Wendy has done and Saladdragons is doing

These childless back and forths are getting old... the only posts you have made are to go after Cheri and stay away from the issue of

Saladdragon having alot of adenovirus positive dragons in her colony..

It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out what lines these are and where they came from. Just hit goggle and search and read and read
anyone can and Should do this IF they have not done so already

 

[Viss]

One more slight addition...

Let's put this into terms ALL can understand...

You have your choice to breed HUMANs With... or Without AIDS... Your decision woulld be? (Do I REALLY need to ask this)

Again... Just b/c Dragons aren't human, they still deserve the same treatment you'd provide to your own children.

I've had anough of Who brought Adeno, How they did so, Why it happened, How it's developed as it has, and so on... How about... We control it, and then push forward into repairing said issue. Bicker via PM... Talk about a RESOLUTION via the thread.

 

[CheriS]

Viss

I have no problem recommending breeders that I think are ethical and have the dragons best interest foremost, not just the money. You would have to discuss with them any testing or results, but I can promise you I will not recommend any that are knowingly selling adeno positive ones or breeders that have a lot of reports from other breeders/owners of positive dragons coming from them. I will send that in email to you.

I am sorry about the bickering, it is hard sometimes to leave alone the false, twisted or pulled from the air accusations like in Vicki's last post. I honestly have no idea what she is talking about with half the stuff she accuses me of on here or that I get in messages. Like the virologist or biologist, conversations I never had or know about that she seems to or the coccidia crusade or most that is in her last reply. Now there is also ones about the Breeders Network from Mikey (Jean) too. that I have no idea of but I am sure that is parrotted from Vicki too as she said it earlier and never backed that delusion up either. From what they both say now they seem to have some info that there are breeders that they both know have positive dragons and are selling them to the public. That is pretty strange that these breeders would admit that to both of them to spout off about on here, but not come on this thread and speak out themselves? How about.... NOT!

So, now you see, it becomes someone else's story and their truth, as it was never answer. I keep asking her to explain what the heck she was talking about and you see the response I get? I just need to know what they are saying or alluding too now! Just in case they are saying there are breeders on it that are selling positive dragons, then I will say again as I said when someone else used this as his excuse to sell positive dragons and claimed that was from Dachiu.... I am not aware of any breeders on it selling positive dragons to anyone.

The rest of the claims, especially about coccidia crusades which I also have heard many times from others that she said this to them. I will address in later post after I have time to look them all up online and in emails, so *I* have them accurate. Others also already have seen and acknowledged thats a load of poo from her as the archives and 2002- current post show the exact opposite and I think I have an email from her about that also.

I would love to get back to setting up fundraiser at shows and expos to raise several thousands like have been in the past for viral reseach or supporting the vet/researchers again that tried to do something in the past for this community, but I do not think that is going to happen anytime in the immediate future with the way they have been bashed and attacked for it, even to the level of their own animals verbally trashed.

 

[Viss]

I can certainly understand why you're so upset... This obviously happens quite often when you post (As you stated it would)

But honestly, at this point, there's really not much need to prove them wrong. We all know it exists... and we all know tests should be run. It's those that won't test that deserve the abuse, and I'll certainly make it my goal to recommend this to ALL I see...

"Do NOT purchase Lizards whose parents were not tested for Adenovirus." Simple as that... Even those who are in it for the money alone will take a beating when this is what EVERY consumer sees when perusing forums and actively asking such questions. Add it to Care Guides and everything else you can do. If they won't actively change... Then actively change them When you affect their income, They will adapt... (Just like they expect out of these poor Dragons they neglect on some levels.)

 

[fstop2100a]

1. First of all you have to have something to fix in order to fix it!
To this date the virus has not been proven at what level the virus effects the animal. To this date no one has done DNA studies on what gene or strand if any the virus is attached to. You can't fix it if you don't understand it.
2. No matter how carefull you are about removing waste from the cage there are going to be times when worms, crickets, eat some of the waste which the dragons will then consume. There is a balance of bacteria, enzymes, proteins, and yes some viral variants that exists in the normal balance of the digestive tract. When this balance is affected by any number or reasons the animal can become ill. We do not know the combination of possible applications that may cause the virus to take over the animal. In simple terms we do not know when or why humans get cold sores at certain times and not others. We do know how to test for HP1 and HP2 but have little control over them other then acyclovir.
3. I do not know how you expect breeders to test each animal they sell. It is possible to test the breeders to insure the virus is not present at that time. However, just because a few cells show up or dont show up at that point does not mean if tested 6 weeks later that the animal will not have some other complications that have caused the virus to escalate.
4. Until there is money, time, and animal donations we have little chance in obtaining a way to fix the problem. We don't know what it is we are fixing or if the fix might cause some other chemical issues within the digestive tract. The best way in my opinion is to find a few graduate students who are looking for a unique project to work on. Let them get beyond testing to find out if an animal has the virus and onto what if anything can be done to curb the virus. The simple fact is there may not be any way to stop such a virus.

The Dachiu's have been nothing but helpful in dealing with this issue. They have done a lot behind the curtain to help study this issue. They even list on their website that their animals are not tested for pinworms, cocidia or the adeno virus. However, they offer a 6 week health warranty that gives one the chance to have the animal tested if the purchaser so desires. I have purchase animals from them in the past and they have grown to be very large and colorful animals. I have never know Vicki to duck any direct question. She has always been most helpful to me. I can only speak of my experiences. I do believe that for any breeder to get involved in these threads with the limited knowlegde we have shows a real concern and leaves themselves open for attack. I am in the process of trying to arrange a study at Georgia Tech for one of the grad. students to look into virus and come up with some concrete answers if there are any to be found..... Richard

 

[whiskersmom]

1. First of all you have to have something to fix in order to fix it!
To this date the virus has not been proven at what level the virus effects the animal. To this date no one has done DNA studies on what gene or strand if any the virus is attached to. You can't fix it if you don't understand it.
2. No matter how carefull you are about removing waste from the cage there are going to be times when worms, crickets, eat some of the waste which the dragons will then consume. There is a balance of bacteria, enzymes, proteins, and yes some viral variants that exists in the normal balance of the digestive tract. When this balance is affected by any number or reasons the animal can become ill. We do not know the combination of possible applications that may cause the virus to take over the animal. In simple terms we do not know when or why humans get cold sores at certain times and not others. We do know how to test for HP1 and HP2 but have little control over them other then acyclovir.
3. I do not know how you expect breeders to test each animal they sell. It is possible to test the breeders to insure the virus is not present at that time. However, just because a few cells show up or dont show up at that point does not mean if tested 6 weeks later that the animal will not have some other complications that have caused the virus to escalate.
4. Until there is money, time, and animal donations we have little chance in obtaining a way to fix the problem. We don't know what it is we are fixing or if the fix might cause some other chemical issues within the digestive tract. The best way in my opinion is to find a few graduate students who are looking for a unique project to work on. Let them get beyond testing to find out if an animal has the virus and onto what if anything can be done to curb the virus. The simple fact is there may not be any way to stop such a virus.

The Dachiu's have been nothing but helpful in dealing with this issue. They have done a lot behind the curtain to help study this issue. They even list on their website that their animals are not tested for pinworms, cocidia or the adeno virus. However, they offer a 6 week health warranty that gives one the chance to have the animal tested if the purchaser so desires. I have purchase animals from them in the past and they have grown to be very large and colorful animals. I have never know Vicki to duck any direct question. She has always been most helpful to me. I can only speak of my experiences. I do believe that for any breeder to get involved in these threads with the limited knowlegde we have shows a real concern and leaves themselves open for attack. I am in the process of trying to arrange a study at Georgia Tech for one of the grad. students to look into virus and come up with some concrete answers if there are any to be found..... Richard

.......and in the mean time continue to breed, breed, breed!!!! We don't know anything about this virus, so until we do just go ahead and let them breed, right? Just go ahead and flood the market with tons of infected beardies, right? And if we find out that this is a bad thing which one of you people are going to stand up and take responsibility for promoting this? No, you'll probably point a finger at Cheri.
You say that there may not be a way to stop this virus and I say you're wrong.....don't breed the positive ones. And don't say the test is inconclusive because where there might be false negatives, there are not false positives and that is really what is being worried about, isn't it?

 

[Dachiu]

I'm with Jeremy on this.....where's the harm in testing?
Why not test so that when you sell your dragons, you are able to tell the consumer if they are buying an infected one or a non infected one. I mean, what's the difference if it's like coccidia? This just makes people wonder what you might be trying to hide, Vicki???

We did not say there was a harm in testing - but the testing methods have shown inconsistency in their results. Results have slipped both ways... These are not our experiences, but those of others who have not posted publicly.

1. After researching, an individual chose to test dragons PCR. Those tests returned mixed results of positive dragons living with negatives - Those groups were separated. Upon retesting the negative animals at a later date, a few negatives returned positive results. And this is only after 2 rounds of testing on healthy dragons.

2. Another dragon tested positive EM on the first sample sent in - then negative consistently thereafter.

3. A small breeder tested their adults - they all came back negative EM. Yet upon pulling group ‘poo’ from hatchlings produced by these negative animals and testing EM - the results returned on the hatchlings were positive.

This is just 3 individual situations which people are now dealing with. Can any one of you explain in detail exactly what is going on here? We certainly cannot… but this proposed testing method for identifying positive/negative animals is not reliable since it is evident that the virus is not working the way it has been portrayed.

It has dawned on me that you maybe hiding information that could shed alot of light on what is happing now. Help us to learn what goes on if you could

That is exactly what we have been doing Karen. Have you looked at any of the information we have posted? Do you really think we came up with this overnight? Have you spoken to any professionals yourself? I would really like for you to share what you have learned from them directly.

Here is just part of an email exchange with Cheri dated 11/08/06. Her responses are in bold.

So, the only thing we can do is begin to fill in some of the blanks. We are considering utilizing the new addition to our facility - which is a separate building from where our breeders/babies are housed - to run consistent, long-term tests needed to begin getting some answers for ourselves. We realize that this is not going to come close to an equal of a controlled scientific study - but it’s a start. We will also need to discuss the implications/viability of future use of the building for its intended purpose with professionals first. If we’re given a ‘go’, it will take about a month to clear out the animals that are housed there, and set up new housing and such.
* not something I would ever considering doing, but I wish you luck

If we get the ok -
Can you get your hands on some definite, adenovirus positive, young, unrelated dragons - that appear healthy and are not on their death-bed? We don’t need or want to know where they came from.
*I have had this email up all day and typed a response here several times and erased it, walked away many times and came back. I have tried to think how I could say this to you without offending you, but still get a point across about something you have repeated to others and does greatly influence them, yet now you flip to the other side and I do not see how you can have both.
I see many sizable breeder, especially ones that this is their main income stating that scientist state that this could be so wide spread in the US that many have it in their colony or the "majority"..... You have said that, Valley dragons has said and then in the next breathe infer or do something that says the ezact opposite... the whole time repeating that this could be in everyones colony. IF you honestly believed that, you would have postive ones in your own collection and many breeders you know also would, you would not need to be looking for some anywhere. But that is the point... so you sww it, you do not think you have it, I do not think I do or test with the EM stain positive, MANY breeders do not, so we know that is not true... yet they keep repeating it without stating their iwn qualifiers that show that to be wrong.

We asked Cheri because she had previously had contact with people who had tested positive and we felt it best if we not know whose animals we were running tests on - therefore no one could claim that any of the testing was done with bias. Basically she turned her back on our offer. Odd actions for someone who really wants to get to the bottom of this.

Word spread quietly and we were contacted directly by people who were interested in offering us animals. Consequently, we had positives in that facility the first week of January to work with. Since then, we have also had others contact us wanting to perform different testing methods and such. Details will not be released immediately as the testing and information/data is incomplete and those involved are currently anonymous.

We do not post this all over the place and brag about what we are doing, we do not post incomplete information or state something as fact without a direct reference. Can you say the same about others? We devoted a brand new addition to our facility, feed and house donated positive animals and run repetitive testing on these positive animals to identify the discrepancies in the way this virus presents. Can you say the same about others?

Your constant dancing and jig dance is insulting to me ..,

For you to assume anything about us based upon Cheri’s point of view - is insulting.


Cheri, you really need to slow down… before you trip over your lies.
1.) You’ll have to dig back before the fungus mess to find the coccidia crusade.
2.) I never said any breeders were positive - that information came out of your mouth. Now, if Sandfire’s translucent dragons are all positive as you tell everyone - you have some "Network" editing to do.



Ps - I do not know Mikey. We do not converse.

 

[Neverland Dragons]

I have been doing some research today and ran across two interesting articles in regards to adenovirus. There are 4 different genus of adenovirus. Human adenovirus is of the genus Mastadenovirus and bearded dragon adenovirus is of the genus Atadenovirus. They are distinctly different and I do no think it is accurate to liken one to the other. The links are as follows:

Adenovirus Taxonomy (classification)
http://linux.vmri.hu/~harrach/AdVtaxlong.htm

Genetic content and evolution of adenoviruses
http://vir.sgmjournals.org/cgi/content/full/84/11/2895

 

[fstop2100a]

I would agree with not breeding those animals that test positive until there is actual knowledge of the composition of the virus on a molecular structure and if there is any remedy other then put the animal down. We all know there are very few drugs that work in the viral area. Heck we would all love to cure the 53 strains of human cold virus. We would love to cure the virus on the cruise ships that make many sick each year. I can tell you one thing that is certain and that is each virus lives in a limited temperature range. Those that have positive dragons might want to run the cage temps up to 120 for a part of the day and range it down to 65 at night. Mammals can fight a virus by raising our temps there animals cannot. Hot baths Which cause the animal to defecate, Hot water given by syringe like in the 120 range might help. I suspect many of you have toyed with chlorides and sulfates mix very mildly with water. How many of you are on wells. Have you tested your water its full of bacteria and such unless you are treating it. Florides, salts,Have you tried a bit of salt in the food? Naturally these are all just wild ideas but having talked to some lab people at the Johns Hopkins those were a few suggestions. Those that have positive animals should try one method at a time until a real understanding of if this is a treatable virus. I suppose the worst that can happen is that like some human virus's a lot of people and animals will just die until nature figures out how to combat the virus.... Yikes I sound like a Darwin decedent..... I know that whenever my dragons get sick I mix some salt and warm water and put 200cc of it in their throats. It does take too long in before they excrete it

 

[mikey]

If and when these 10 questions can be answered with more than "No Scientific data on that" I would be way more open to debate whether testing should be mandatory for all breeders. You are tooting your horn with no solid answers, just your theories. I take most of what you say as pure gossip, speculation, and mostly your own agenda. Face it, you have NO data to support what you are saying other than your pursuit to be the center of attention. If you need to be seen as the queen, do something constructive in the next 5 years and maybe we will have answers, unlike what has been done in the previous years. You can't keep referring to the same letter and email much longer.

FYI, I also do not know nor have ever had any dealing with Dachui. It's a sad day when other's are afraid to speak out against you Cheri, for fear of retaliation. The shit you try to spread in email's and PM's will soon come back at ya though, that I do believe. Think about it, if this thread was going on at your site, do you believe anyone would have the balls to challenge you or your stance?

All I see right now is "NO SCIENTIFIC DATA ON THAT"

1. Just how prevelant is this virus in the U.S?
No scientific data on that. Many colonies test clear or if they have a positive, it is often only one carrier adult or a breeding pair and those offsprings, not their entire colony. I think Wendy will be happy to discuss this with you
2. What is the actual lethality of the virus?
No scientific data on that, it is on the necropsy reports as the cause of death or conclusions in several dozen necropsy reports. I think Wendy would be glad to post hers if you want
3. Are there different strains with varying degree of lethality?
No scientific data on that, no indication there are more than one, but possible
4. Exactly what ARE the symptoms to look out for?
See Dr Wentz's report http://www.reptilerooms.com/Section...-47-page-1.html
Article with post by some online that is complied from people who experienced it- with updates since 2002 http://www.reptilerooms.com/forumtopic-74.html
Both will show you that the symptoms can have wide ranges, especially in regard to age of the animal
OR talk to Wendy, Suzanne or Andy, all who have spoken about it publicly and are willing to talk to anyone that needs it
5. By what means is the virus passed?
Wentz says direct oral/fecal route from other infected ones, and through the mother to offspring, (not known if from the ovaries or from stool as the eggs pass through the cloaca). Other possibles are animals to hand to animal transmission as indicated from 3 breeders who returned from one show area in NY with it seems to indicate (2 separate times). Also possible animal to furnishings to animal transmission as indicated in about a dozen other cases. No reports of air transmission, in fact it appear even when the opportunity was there, it did not happen.
6. A Vicky stated, how long is the virus shed?
No scientific data on that, to date, ones that have tested positive by owners, have always tested positive, up to 4 years now.
7. Does the virus lay dormant until the animal becomes ill, stressed, infested with parasites, at which point the virus is activated?
No scientific data on that, babies that do show signs of the viral infection
within 3 weeks of exposure, all have died within 72 hours after the first signs. Babies that had been shipped off, came down ill and died within a few weeks in the new home of adenovirus, there was no knowledge when they had been exposed and if they were in the incubation period or a longer time since exposure. With older dragons or adult it does seem that there are factors that do weaken them and the virus overpowers them,(the virus was always there, husbandry does NOT cause the virus) such as egg laying, URI or other things that compromise their immune system. There are more indicators that the virus casues the parasite overloads, not the other way around. One thing that has been common in many infected animals in the same colony with ones that are not infected, is the difficulty in controling parasites in those positive.
Is is possible for the virus to spread during a "dormant" period, if in fact, one exists?
No scientific data on that or if there is a even such a thing as a dormant period, Jacobsons says it is possible, but no indicators it is.
8. Is simple husbandry practices, e.g., cleaning with bleach, enough to kill the virus in the environment?
No to bleach, I have been told heat, nolvasans or Quat cleaners(20-30 minutes) are more apt to kill them, It is better than nothing, and SEEMS to work. Hand sanitizers DO NOT work.
If the virus is airborne, what control measures do we use?
There has never been any indicator it is airborne, all indicators are that it is not, as ones without direct contact, but in the same rooms, air flow areas indoors or outdoor locations side by side remained negative next to positive ones, for years.
9. Could a bearded dragon be treated with anti-virals to suppress illness and shedding of the virus?
No Scientific data on that yet
Could an animal being treated with anti-virals be bred and produce healthy, virus-free offspring?
No Scientific data on that yet, Acyclovirs, including Zovirax and another med I could not locate the name of (I am trying to get this to you online as fast as I can, your not real pateint in waiting very long and I can not work that fast) has been been tried when the dragons was showing active illness due to the adenovirus with no success and in 1 positive, no symptoms showing female, that was gravid, but she died following laying.
10. Suppose we selectively bred animals who carry the virus but suffer no ill-effects. Would we eventually have a group of animals virtually resistant to the virus?
Could, not a would as it is not a guarantee it will happen ever. Jacobson says this is possible, it has happened before in other species and many virus including manNo scientific data on that

 

[Neverland Dragons]

Here is some info on adenovirus copied and pasted from The Merck Veterinary Manual:

Adenoviruses:

Adenoviruses have been implicated in fatal hepatic or GI diseases in snakes (gaboon vipers, ball pythons, boa constrictors, rosy boas, and rat snakes), lizards (Jackson’s chameleons, savannah monitors, and bearded dragons) and crocodilians.
In bearded dragons, the route of transmission appears to be fecal/oral contamination. Clinical signs are more commonly noted in juvenile dragons but can affect adults, usually to a lesser extent. Symptoms are vague and include lethargy, weakness, weight loss, diarrhea, and sudden death. The morbidity is high in young bearded dragons, but survival is increased with supportive care. Fluid administration, force-feeding, and antibiotics for secondary infections are useful.
As the signs of disease in bearded dragons are vague and similar to those caused by coccidia and nutritional disorders, it is important to confirm the diagnosis. Characteristic intranuclear inclusion bodies are found in several internal organs, primarily the liver. When working with a large breeding group of lizards, it is practical to sacrifice a failing specimen in order to make a diagnosis. Premortem diagnosis can be accomplished by liver biopsy. Identification of adenovirus from fresh feces may be possible in the near future.
Recovered lizards should be quarantined for at least 3 mo. Duration of viral shedding after recovery is unknown, so clients should be discouraged from selling or trading previously infected animals.

It also states at the top of the page:

Few viruses have been clearly proven as etiologic agents of disease in reptiles, but several have been linked strongly enough for them to be considered the causative agent until proven otherwise.

I just wanted to supply outside opinions on this virus. This clearly discourages breeders from selling infected animals. I also thought the above statement was relevant to our discussion.


The link is:
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/171413.htm&hide=1

 

[walker75]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walker75
Your constant dancing and jig dance is insulting to me ..,

For you to assume anything about us based upon Cheri’s point of view - is insulting.



Vicki

I have never meet.. called,talked to or received an email from one Cheri S

yes I read but you assumed once again

I also have never received a pm

I do however HOPE that we can move forward and discuss and learn more about this Virus.

I would like to do my own research study on Henry's fecal for parasites and coccida levels as this info maybe helpful somewhere sometime.

He also has a very warm lair and receives a warm bath daily to defecate in. Re soaked for hydration because of the heat. So no he does not poo in his lair he is trained not too.

Also my doctors give me idea's they are researchers also...

That is an interesting idea about the research idea you have thank you for mentioning it.

Oh yes I have read all the info you have posted AND offered to this thread