One More Reason to Test for Adenovirus

[walker75]

Vicki

I also would like to include in this all the sales of breeders online they should not be left out..

Some sent dragons nowhere close to what the person thought they where going to buy. Also sick also testing positive. With many problems, not just with andeo, kinks, twitches and on and on many things not just andeo.

Also alot of others have tested positive now from online breeders... Also the general public.

No one knows as you say they can be breed and be fine with Andeovirus.

So I thank all the people who have stated that they have tested positive dragons and listed the parents of the dragons.. This way maybe we can as a whole community get a handle on this and Learn.

Fear as you say ... Is that some .... I think many, may have a positive dragon and paid lots of money for it without a Clue knowing they have this so called Andeovirus gene is in them.

So once again TEST and POST so we can get a handle on this and Learn

Knowledge is key

while being very helpful to everyone

 

[walker75]

I also want to include on line breeders ,,... I posted and well have no idea what happened to it..

People pay good money and lots of it for some dragons by breeders..

So they may not know there dragons has this so so called prevalent adenovirus gene in there dragons.

They may have not been told as other are now testing positive.

I still believe testing needs to be done and all facts names and lines should come out.

Some people have already done this .. I hope they continue to test and post


Knowledge is key in getting a handle on this instead of keeping it Silent

 

[maul99]

I have been reading all the post on different forums and I must admit I am tired of hearing about it. All anyone is doing is finger pointing and trying to lay blame. ITS TOO LATE FOR THAT. Why is no one trying to raise money for research?? If someone wants to make a differance this is how to do it. Adeno is here and now we need to deal with it, its does not matter where it stated.

I have been doing my own research on adeno. i have talked to the Dr. and Proffesor doing some research as well as some of the breeders that have been infected. I have also talked with those that are doing the testing to see if one test is better than the other. After talking to all these people teh one thing I have learned is no one really knows anything about adeno. Money is needed for research and its simply not there.

As for Josh at PD, I know many don't agree with his methods to develop the line he has. All I have to say about that is, yes it might be wrong, but all morphs started this way. At least he was honest with the info he released about the development of translucents. You guys have to admit that that was a risky move. All he did is what many of you are asking for..........breeders to tell the truth. All he got for that was hung out to dry. No one has given him credit for at least being honest. And some wonder why other breeders wont share info.

As for me I am lucky. I am a small hobby breeder, this is not my income. If I don't sell dragons my family does not go hungry. Sadly this does not apply to everyone. I hope everyone will do what is right for the dragons. I am sending in my test on Monday and have decided that if my breeders are infected I will stop breeding and just try to provide the best life for my dragons as long as they live.

I know everyone is upset about how the trans started. Please understand I disagree with it too. Too many dragons were killed for profit. But how is that different from all the people that are now putting down dragons that apper healthy, and showed no signs of being sick, they just tested positive. In my book killing a dragon is killing a dragon. If its sick and having a poor condition of life by all means put it down. But I know of some that are just putting down anything that test postive and to me that is just wrong. If the dragon is healthy and active why not keep it seperate and do your best to stop cross contamination, why kill it. Would you kill you child if it came down with virus (say HIV)..........heck NO.....you would try and provide the best quality of life for them.

I just had to add my two cents. It kills me to see that dragon community split and at each other throats. We have all got to work together if we are going to try and learn how to prevent this virus. All I know for sure is that no one has a good grip on this. Is there one strain or two becasue it seems so deadly is some and shows no signs in others. All I know is that as a whole we need to stop finger pointing and laying blame and try to wrok together to learn and RAISE MONEY to help fund research.

 

[whiskersmom]

It kills me to see that dragon community split and at each other throats. We have all got to work together if we are going to try and learn how to prevent this virus. All I know for sure is that no one has a good grip on this. Is there one strain or two becasue it seems so deadly is some and shows no signs in others. All I know is that as a whole we need to stop finger pointing and laying blame and try to wrok together to learn and RAISE MONEY to help fund research.

I agree 100% but how can you get some people to agree that testing needs to be done.....that only testing, at this point, is what will contain this virus.

Also, I would gladly donate money for research.....maybe you could start something????

 

[Tere Salazar]

With the adenovirus testing positive in so many collections now - it has been asked before “where are all of the reports of dead dragons?” Sadly, the only reports of deaths we have received with this last influx of positive results are the ones that people are putting down out of fear of transmission. HEALTHY animals have been put down out of fear.

Saladragon - Care to elaborate on the advise you were given by Dr. Wentz regarding euthanizing positive animals? If my memory serves correctly you stated on the phone to us “The f****** crack-head” said to “whack them, but not too hard…” Want to finish this sentence?

No, I really don't care to finish that sentence, as I was quite disgusted by it. At that time, I was in denial and scared to death of what could be going on with these babies. The thought of having to "whack" them to prep them for necropsy did not sit well with me. Regardless of their issues, these were babies I loved and cared for just like all the other babies we've had.

That being said, that's why it's so important to do your research, ask your questions, and come to your own conclusions. After doing the research, hearing the research others had done, as well as the advice by Dr. Jacobson, we decided testing was right for us to do.

No, we did NOT euthanize any healthy animals, or Adenovirus positive animals for that matter. But we did have what I consider to be a substantial die-off rate with this batch of babies. I lost count at 9, simply because I was...well, pretty freaked out by it all. We had not had issues with die-offs prior to this, and I thought it important to search out whatever answers I could find. For us, testing for Adenovirus was part of that.

I can see what Vickie is saying, to an extent. Research, research, research. Gather all the information you can, all the opinions you can, and then form your own opinion on how to handle your own personal situation. However, I personally think it's best to be cautious until those answers are found.

What I do not agree with is that ANY breeder should be "let off the hook", so to speak, simply because testing would cost such a large amount of money for them. Testing also caused us financial hardship, but to me, was well worth it to have the answers. The testing should be considered one of the costs of doing business. We house them properly to get them ready for a new home...and that costs money. We feed them properly to get them ready for a new home...and that costs a fortune. They should also be tested to ensure they're healthy enough for a new home.

In my OPINION, something that kills babies...be it parasites or Adenovirus, is something that should be tested for. Breeders offer all kinds of health guarantees on their animals. All kinds of things are assumed to be included in that health guarantee, such as good eating response and lack of parasites. If we know this Adenovirus is killing babies, why would lack of the virus not be part of what breeders are guaranteeing?

 

[whiskersmom]

What I do not agree with is that ANY breeder should be "let off the hook", so to speak, simply because testing would cost such a large amount of money for them. Testing also caused us financial hardship, but to me, was well worth it to have the answers. The testing should be considered one of the costs of doing business. We house them properly to get them ready for a new home...and that costs money. We feed them properly to get them ready for a new home...and that costs a fortune. They should also be tested to ensure they're healthy enough for a new home.

In my OPINION, something that kills babies...be it parasites or Adenovirus, is something that should be tested for. Breeders offer all kinds of health guarantees on their animals. All kinds of things are assumed to be included in that health guarantee, such as good eating response and lack of parasites. If we know this Adenovirus is killing babies, why would lack of the virus not be part of what breeders are guaranteeing?

Perfectly said......Thank you.

 

[Tere Salazar]

In my OPINION, something that kills babies...be it parasites or Adenovirus, is something that should be tested for. Breeders offer all kinds of health guarantees on their animals. All kinds of things are assumed to be included in that health guarantee, such as good eating response and lack of parasites. If we know this Adenovirus is killing babies, why would lack of the virus not be part of what breeders are guaranteeing?

To expand on that OPINION: Shouldn't something that causes what's in the following picture be researched, and answers sought out?

These are two babies that both hatched on October 31st. Two siblings to both of these babies test positive. Both siblings have been offered the same husbandry. The picture says it all.

 

[trapieter]

you're saying these are the same age?
I think alot of research needs to be done generally on all areas of adeno, but I would say this takes money right?
well I'm a consumer, I buy beardies (ok I have two but I plan to buy another one at some point and I want a morph) and I care about this situation. From what I've seen in writing on other sites other owners (not just breeders ) care about the adeno problem and want honesty and research too. if we all want it then why can't we promote funding? ok. it was suggested a fee towards testing be placed on the sales of beardies from breeders to enable them to do it, how much would have to be put on top to donate some towards research? (without being negative) I'm sure some industries would get on side too, repcal, t-rex... how many companies for beardies are out there? if adeno isn't addressed they'll go down too. just a thought but I'm an optimist

keep being honest, lets see how far this has spread and what the damage is, lets see what there is to control because then we can address it properly. how can anyone ask for help if they can't say how much help they even need? And if you stay in the dark and try and cope on your own ... well this is too big, it'll weigh you down, so many people are here to help so turn the light on and say hello xxxx

ps please don't punish me lol

 

[shinkster]

that picture definitely illustrates the point that a picture says a thousand words.

 

[Tere Salazar]

you're saying these are the same age?

Yes, they were hatched within hours of each other on October 31st, 2006. There are two tiny ones like that...then big ones like the big one in the picture. There are also ones in between that size, about 6" long, that were hatched either that same day, or the following day.

The two super tiny ones (as well as the three smalls, and the one large) are staying right here with me forever.

 

[maul99]

Hey Wiskersmom,

I will email both of the ones doing the reserach and see if money can be donated to find some answers for adeno. I am unsure if we can its just an idea. I know Lou Ann Miller told me that money was really lacking for reaserch and she is doing the test for me so I will ask her if she knows how we can help. If my like test negative I have no problem donating a percentage of the selling price to reserch (if my line is infected I will not be breeding and just keeping them as pets).

I just want to do something to help the dragons and finger pointing is not doing anything. In all the post I have read about adeno in the last year no one is saying anything about getting money for reserach. In my opinion we need answers and the only way we can get ones is if test are conducted and research is done.

Its time to stop laying balme, put aside our differences and get some answers. This will be a lot eaiser if we can all work together. Travis

 

[mikey]

Would anyone with a website donate some space to start something constructive and heading forward with this? Could we find out, if we can raise funds, if we could possibly have a long term study done and exactly how much it would cost? Anyone willing to head this up? Lets band together and start something that people have a place to go that is not biased. That could present the lastest data, let people share their experiences,and raise funds for future studies. Anyone willing to take this on or I feel as soon as this thread dies down, everyone will just go back to waiting to see what happens. Any ideals?

 

[Cat_72]

Jean, Tere is working on the website idea right now.

I also have plans of turning our website into an educational tool for this virus. The change of the website will be difficult, simply because I don't want to scare anyone. So, if anyone has any ideas on how to go about making that change without causing mass hysteria, please feel free to offer your ideas.

 

[mikey]

Jean, Tere is working on the website idea right now.

Great,

Tere, If you are willing to take this on, I would be more than happy to help in any way I can.

 

[Tere Salazar]

Jean, Tere is working on the website idea right now.

Cathy and Jean-

Yes, I had planned on doing something, but still haven't figured out what yet. Not only do I not want to scare people so badly that they won't read any information, my main computer guy (my husband) isn't due back for another couple of weeks. I did make a couple of changes, but it was more to inform anyone I wasn't able to hunt down, in hopes that they would visit our website eventually...and to answer the question that I'm being asked over and over again, which is where to do go to get our animals tested.

Just a couple of general ideas I had were to post on our dragon picture page which dragons were positive, and which were negative...so people could see that they don't have to look sick to be sick. That's already been done.

Another thing I had planned on doing is posting links for all the different articles, research, whatever other information (to include information I don't personally agree with) all in one place so people would be able to do their own research.

I had also planned on putting somewhere what our experiences are with this virus. I know it sounds silly, but so far, everyone's experiences have been different. I had planned on putting up pictures that show what this virus can do, most likely one like what's posted above, so people can see with their own eyes. Reading what it does is one thing...seeing it is entirely different alltogether. And no, I wouldn't be posting pictures of the deceased babies.

I know these are both very simple things, but I can't help but think it would help in some small way. And like I said, I'm more than happy to take suggestions how to do this. I've never taken on something like this, but if it would help, I'm more than willing.

 

[mikey]

I think that is a great starting point, to present all the data and to stay open minded that not one person has all the answers.That all data must be reviewed equally and fairly whether we agree or not.

 

[ladyknite]

Topics of my post are not meant to be directed at anyone in particular, and definately not toward those trying to stop the advancement of this virus.

Honesty………seems to be a word that’s in high demand and short supply these days. We realize that rarely anyone in our reptile community trusts each other anymore, don’t we? Yet, it seems almost expected that the new comers and buyers of these dragons, should trust the breeders without hesitation. And in the meantime, we don’t even trust each other. Ironic.

I too feel that research and testing are extremely important. I can understand money, profit margin, unexpected costs and the need to pay bills. However, I also understand the impact this is having on new owners or those that do not frequent our forums, not to mention the unsuspecting breeders that have been profoundly effected. Their costs associated with buying their dragon, then the upward cost of vet care before they barely have the time to recover from relocation stress due to the panic, not knowing creates. I’m all for donations for research, but I’m not convinced that the cost of this will not be misconstrued by the greedy and the innocent taken advantage of. Again, we’re back at the trust and honesty issue. However, I will gladly donate a fee monthly toward the research for information, as long it is credible.

I wish for what we all wish for, health and good genetics. Who did what, where, when and why is important, yes, but not as important as controlling what has been unleashed in this community. The here and now………debating the options is wasting time, and costing lives.

What stands before us is an upset community that is afraid of those that have made their names in this circle. They seek the honesty and integrity of those they are supposed to respect. They expect to be supported in their efforts to raise and keep a healthy beautiful dragon from your stock. They’re met with excuses, accusations and assumptions based on the thought that “it can’t be the breeders fault”. In this….I somewhat agree. New keepers often make mistakes, have improper equipment, and the wrong information. However, the new owner expected to receive a perfectly healthy dragon on arrival, which, following relocation, should pick back up to normal. To my understanding, an adeno + dragon can’t withstand these imperfections to the same capability of a healthy dragon.

The guarantees that breeders offer are almost useless. So many things can be excused away. What if you can’t get them to contact you when you have a problem? After all, breeders have lives too. But that doesn’t help your time frame. It takes time to send samples for adeno testing, and that time frame usually isn’t in that guarantee.

I’ve seen many breeders argue the fact that the tests are costly. Their stock is massive and it is not a cost effective solution for them. There have been recommendations that the breeders add testing costs onto the sale of the dragon. Yet the community is losing faith and trust in them now. I believe you can refer to the BOI to clarify.

Only one breeder to my knowledge, and please correct me if I’m wrong, went back and purchased back the positive hatchlings that came from their clutches. I’m certain the cost far surpassed the profit made. And I must say, that is impressive to me. Honor, trust, and the genuine thought of the species is remarkable. This is what we trust. Why? Because the integrity to say “something went wrong” was there. It was researched and identified and dealt with to the best of their ability. It was brought to public attention to make others aware that this problem exists and to help them prepare for what was to come. This information provided so much to help others already. Those that have adeno+ dragons are searching for ways to promote their health and extend their lives without the thought of breeding to contaminate another generation. Thank You for that.

I don't think anyone has the knowledge to say this is over rated or over exaggerated. We simply don't have that information. But whether it is or isn't is NOT the point. The point is........preservation of a healthy species.

The buyers want answers, ones they can understand. How many of you will reimburse that adeno positive baby, the shipping, the testing costs, the vet bills to that new owner, regardless of your own testing beliefs or opinions? At that time, will you test the adults that produced the clutch and post their results?

Simple questions. Who can give simple answers?

 

[Tere Salazar]

Gina-

After reading your incredibly well thought out post, I had to clarify something. I'm hoping I just read it wrong.

I will be more than happy to donate to research, but I DO NOT want to be in any way associated with those research funds...other than tell me where to send it. I really, really hope I misunderstood or misread what you wrote.

 

[ladyknite]

Sorry if I wasn't clear Tere. I definately want to do my part, whether that means donate money, what ever information I might have, or anything else can be brought to my attention. I simply do not want to see the new owners pushed for more money when it's been proven that some have not been quite so honest.

I'm lucky, I'm not affected by this virus. For those of you that are, and have come forward to offer your information and to try to guide the rest of us......I commend you, and respect you.

 

[maul99]

Gina,

You said you were not affected by the adeno. Does this mean you tested your trans and its clean? I am not trying to be a smart @## I am just woundering. All I have heard is that all trans are infected and I have not spoken to anyone with a trans that was clean so I was just woundering. I am getting my trans and a bunch of others tested next week and was just curious. Travis